Remove/recreate purple caves

[JayboH]

10 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Same, I don't understand how people want to make things worse.

You truly believe that recreating the blue/purple caves will automatically make it worse?  How do you know this?

[MTeague]

6 hours ago, justicebeliever said:

Unless they are snapping turtles...No one says no to a snapping turtle.

And noooooobody says no to Gamera.

 

On the cave maps, honestly I don't mind them in the slightest.  And I don't think heroes should expect that villains would organize their cave layouts and lairs specfically to make it easier for the heroes to find all of them.  You learn the maps easy enough if you play them.  Not once have I been unable to find where the last few mobs live.  Though there were a small handful of times I spent 8 minutes looking for them. 

 

I feel what's far MORE deserving of attention is 4 and 5 story buildings with NO exterior windows, NO stairwells, and one-story elevators only in different corners of the building, NO fire escapes, NO fire extinguishers, NO kitchenettes, and NO bathrooms(!)  Honestly EVERY office building and laboratory I've ever been to in Paragon City should be condemned.

 

[SwitchFade]

38 minutes ago, JayboH said:

You truly believe that recreating the blue/purple caves will automatically make it worse?  How do you know this?

Plenty of people like them, so yes, that's proof it would be worse to them.

 

How do you know it would automatically be better?

 

You may think it's a good idea, many of us don't. So, it would be worse in that respect.

[krj12]

I think I could live with cave maps if they would just do something about the pancake room.... that room is a nightmare for locating mobs....

 

 

[Zeraphia]

Does anyone have a picture of these blue/purple caves? I can't seem to recall an example of one off of the top of my head?

[JayboH]

3 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Plenty of people like them, so yes, that's proof it would be worse to them.

 

How do you know it would automatically be better?

 

You may think it's a good idea, many of us don't. So, it would be worse in that respect.

How many?

 

Why do you like them?

[SwitchFade]

1 hour ago, JayboH said:

How many?

 

Why do you like them?

 

If someone likes cheesecake, do they need to explain why? Is it somehow wrong?

 

Nope. That's the great thing about taste, it needs no justification.

 

And, does it matter how many? More than one, based on the comments thus far. If we're going based on votes, ask for an official poll and let majority decide.

[Redlynne]

10 hours ago, krj12 said:

I think I could live with cave maps if they would just do something about the pancake room.... that room is a nightmare for locating mobs....

The "wedding cake" module of the cave maps, which is also reskinned into the "pools room" module in Council maps ... is a CHALLENGE to Players.

Heaven forbid Players ever be challenged by anything in the game!  Any source of frustration must be eliminated with extreme prejudice!

 

Seriously people, the "wedding cake"/"pools room" modules of the cave/Council maps is a multi-layer 3D space to clear, instead of a 2D space like every other part of those maps, and it's honestly pathetic to see people STILL complaining that they're "hard" to deal with ... when all that is needed is for the Player(s) to go to the effort(!) of LEARNING how to clear them.

 

I know ... heresy ...

LEARNING

 

 

 

The way that I deal with these "annoying" map modules is:

 

For the "wedding cake" module in caves ... I move to the bottom level, circle the bottom level to clear it ... move up one level, circle that level to clear it ... move up one level, circle that level to clear it ... wash, rinse, repeat.

 

For the "pools room" module in Council bases ... I move to the bottom level, circle the bottom level to clear it ... move up one level, circle that level to clear it ... move up one level, circle that level to clear it ... wash, rinse, repeat.

 

The whole point of doing that is that if you fall through any of the gaps into the lower levels, you fall into a space that you've already cleared so you don't get extra added aggro on top of what you've already got on you.  So all you have to do is methodically clear the map module from bottom to top.  Apparently that's too hard to do for the people like some of the posters in this thread (who know who they are...) to either do or learn how to do, despite repeated exposure to the challenge of dealing with a multi-layer 3D space instead of the usual configuration of a 2D space with a high ceiling.

[Six-Six]

I vote to have the power Reveal be useless in caves. 😃

[Rathulfr]

14 minutes ago, Six Six said:

I vote to have the power Reveal be useless in caves. 😃

That's just EVIIIILLLLL!!!

😭

[Chrome]

On 6/16/2020 at 1:22 AM, JayboH said:

Yeah I do not understand how there is people here that really want things to not improve.

i have noticed a horrible trend of people literally just saying no to things without even explaining there reasoning, i have stopped offering suggestions because of it. but i still offer support to others that still have faith.

 

I personally think you have a point, removing them from the rotation would be easiest solution, adding one or two maps copy pasted from red side (specifically the larger snake maps) to take their place.  this wouldnt be a huge burden on developer resources, no new maps need to be created.  Great idea! @JayboH

[justicebeliever]

14 hours ago, MTeague said:

I feel what's far MORE deserving of attention is 4 and 5 story buildings with NO exterior windows, NO stairwells, and one-story elevators only in different corners of the building, NO fire escapes, NO fire extinguishers, NO kitchenettes, and NO bathrooms(!)  Honestly EVERY office building and laboratory I've ever been to in Paragon City should be condemned.

 

@JayboHI understand the desire to change those maps, but honestly I am comfortable with them and I agree with others who've said they pose a greater challenge.  However, I'm all for new maps and new missions, so I full endorse the idea of work on new maps that can be used by either our inventive Mission Architects or as the foundation for new missions from new contacts.

[Chrome]

51 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

The "wedding cake" module of the cave maps, which is also reskinned into the "pools room" module in Council maps ... is a CHALLENGE to Players.

Heaven forbid Players ever be challenged by anything in the game!  Any source of frustration must be eliminated with extreme prejudice!

 

Seriously people, the "wedding cake"/"pools room" modules of the cave/Council maps is a multi-layer 3D space to clear, instead of a 2D space like every other part of those maps, and it's honestly pathetic to see people STILL complaining that they're "hard" to deal with ... when all that is needed is for the Player(s) to go to the effort(!) of LEARNING how to clear them.

 

I know ... heresy ...

LEARNING

 

 

 

The way that I deal with these "annoying" map modules is:

 

For the "wedding cake" module in caves ... I move to the bottom level, circle the bottom level to clear it ... move up one level, circle that level to clear it ... move up one level, circle that level to clear it ... wash, rinse, repeat.

 

For the "pools room" module in Council bases ... I move to the bottom level, circle the bottom level to clear it ... move up one level, circle that level to clear it ... move up one level, circle that level to clear it ... wash, rinse, repeat.

 

The whole point of doing that is that if you fall through any of the gaps into the lower levels, you fall into a space that you've already cleared so you don't get extra added aggro on top of what you've already got on you.  So all you have to do is methodically clear the map module from bottom to top.  Apparently that's too hard to do for the people like some of the posters in this thread (who know who they are...) to either do or learn how to do, despite repeated exposure to the challenge of dealing with a multi-layer 3D space instead of the usual configuration of a 2D space with a high ceiling.

you are incorrect, this is not what a real challenge is, this is poor map design.  there are far better ways to add the 3d element to maps without the horrible architecture of the layer cake cave maps, the pool maps are actually fine.  the fact that you believe that this is a challenge really makes me question your idea of challenge altogether.  your dismissal of those people also make me wonder if you think this game is super hard and you are one of those elite that know better than everyone.  this game isnt hard, the challenge in this game is learning how IO sets can go together and time management so you can get said resources to acquire said IOs.  this is the third thread i have looked at where you have just crap on other peoples ideas, i am beginning to believe you are just here to be contrary.

[SwitchFade]

25 minutes ago, Chrome said:

i have noticed a horrible trend of people literally just saying no to things without even explaining there reasoning, i have stopped offering suggestions because of it. but i still offer support to others that still have faith.

 

I personally think you have a point, removing them from the rotation would be easiest solution, adding one or two maps copy pasted from red side (specifically the larger snake maps) to take their place.  this wouldnt be a huge burden on developer resources, no new maps need to be created.  Great idea! @JayboH

Why do people need to explain there likes and dislikes? When you order food at a restaurant, does the cook come out and ask you why?

 

Does he force you to explain yourself and if you don't, belittle you by saying that it's a horrible trend that people won't justify what they like?

Edited June 17, 2020 by SwitchFade

[SwitchFade]

12 minutes ago, Chrome said:

you are incorrect, this is not what a real challenge is, this is poor map design.  there are far better ways to add the 3d element to maps without the horrible architecture of the layer cake cave maps, the pool maps are actually fine.  the fact that you believe that this is a challenge really makes me question your idea of challenge altogether.  your dismissal of those people also make me wonder if you think this game is super hard and you are one of those elite that know better than everyone.  this game isnt hard, the challenge in this game is learning how IO sets can go together and time management so you can get said resources to acquire said IOs.  this is the third thread i have looked at where you have just crap on other peoples ideas, i am beginning to believe you are just here to be contrary.

I'm sorry, but you can't decide what's challenging for everyone.

 

Further, your attitude is less than respectful. Be respectful.

[gromartwo]

14 hours ago, MTeague said:

I feel what's far MORE deserving of attention is 4 and 5 story buildings with NO exterior windows, NO stairwells, and one-story elevators only in different corners of the building,

 

I like the office buildings. Even when you learn them they can hold surprises in where hostages and enemies are. In a world of super powered villains most buildings would be made like fortresses to protect the people. I remember reading something similar when people complained that D&D had too many underground dungeons. A dev said castles were too vulnerable to attack so dungeons became popular. The same principle works here. I would like to see more variety though and the hc devs could turn some rooms into dorms and such.

 

As for the caves: although they can be a pain they are not impossible. Hover or a flight pack help but are not essential in the cake room. Start at the bottom and work your way up  or use any methodical system that works for you. Use tab to spot enemies and if all else fails turn off stealth and enemies will find you.

 

I would like to see more variety in caves but each zone has a flavour. Twisty in Perez Park, smooth/open in The Hollows, and ancient in Cimerora. Some maps don't make sense in some zones. One Mercedes Sheldon arc uses the Atta cave map but the entrance is in talos and the cave feels out of place.

[Six-Six]

I like caves.

Why?

Because they're hard to navigate (even with Reveal).
It's easy to lose your way, get confused.

You get caught in nooks and crannies.

You have to look for your enemies as well as your way around.

A mob might be waiting for you around the corner.

Things get in the way of your shot.

You can fall and lose your bearings. 
You can fall/slide and find yourself in the middle of a mob. 
You can't run away from a fight as easily.

Which forces you to think before you jump into action. plan your actions, plan a plan b (escape route) in case things go south. be aware of your surroundings.

Caves are my favourite especially on Hard Core (no deaths) toons.

[MTeague]

2 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Why do people need to explain there likes and dislikes? When you order food at a restaurant, does the cook come out and ask you why?

 

Does he force you to explain yourself and if you don't, belittle you by saying that it's a horrible trend that people won't justify what they like?

I've never had *quite* that happen, but I have had chefs come out and check with me when I want certain cuts of meat cooked more thoroughly than is considered "trendy". 

They never said "No, I will not do that, you are a horrible diner, get out!"

But they did want to double check and said "Most people really don't like it that well done, and I can't uncook it, so... you're sure?"

[JayboH]

4 hours ago, Chrome said:

i have noticed a horrible trend of people literally just saying no to things without even explaining there reasoning, i have stopped offering suggestions because of it. but i still offer support to others that still have faith.

 

I personally think you have a point, removing them from the rotation would be easiest solution, adding one or two maps copy pasted from red side (specifically the larger snake maps) to take their place.  this wouldnt be a huge burden on developer resources, no new maps need to be created.  Great idea! @JayboH

Thanks

[JayboH]

4 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

I'm sorry, but you can't decide what's challenging for everyone.

 

Further, your attitude is less than respectful. Be respectful.

Don't be dismissive like you have been so far then.  No improvements are allowed, can't even discuss it.  Don't want to hear it.  That can be seen as rather disrespectful as well.  Let's not go after each other like this.

[SwitchFade]

Just now, JayboH said:

Don't be dismissive like you have been so far then.  No improvements are allowed, can't even discuss it.  Don't want to hear it.  That can be seen as rather disrespectful as well.  Let's not go after each other like this.

Just so you're aware, For the record, the caption I quoted was not even addressed to me, look again.

 

Secondly, saying no vote and it's a bad idea, is not dismissive, it's a vote and preference.

 

Further, you're now just trying to twist circumstance. You keep calling removing blue caves an improvement and accusing others of not wanting imrpovements.

 

Here, let me say it again: that's not an improvement to others.

 

You can feel disrespected that people don't agree with your OPINION, that's all well and good, but keep in mind that's not actual disrespect as a point of fact, we just don't agree with you.

 

If people liking things you don't, vote for what they like, state they like what you don't is somehow offensive to you, I invite you to be open minded about people who have different preferences to you.

 

What if you said "let us smoke in restaurants" and someone said no vote, don't like it. Are they wrong? Do they need to justify it? NOPE. That's the beauty of individual freedom.

 

Some of us like blue caves, just because we like them, and the idea of removing them is terrible. Accept the facts. Oh and, no one needs to explain it or justify it to you, just like I don't need to explain why I like cheesecake or married my wife. 😌

[Chrome]

4 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Why do people need to explain there likes and dislikes? When you order food at a restaurant, does the cook come out and ask you why?

 

Does he force you to explain yourself and if you don't, belittle you by saying that it's a horrible trend that people won't justify what they like?

Ok first things first, you are comparing apples to oranges, if i am a paying customer in a restaurant i have every right to complain if the food is not worth what i payed for it.  In a Forum such as this it is usually a place for discussion and argument (not fight but classical argument).  Secondly if a person goes into a suggestion forum saying NO or this sucks, without reasoning, then how can that idea be improved upon.  I am sorry that you feel insulted buy what i said but maybe it is because you might agree with me and understand where i am coming from, you just do not want to admit it.  I am not a simpleton who feels respect is earned i give Respect until a person loses that respect via their own actions.  this is a place where ideas can be shared and worked on and maybe compromised to become good for everybody else.  so instead of coming into this from a place of contrariness, perhaps come forma place of discussion and that maybe an idea might be taken from a rough draft to a polished product.  This is why i feel like it is a horrible trend of somebody saying "this idea sucks" without thought or reasoning is a horrible trend and needs to be changed.

[MTeague]

I do not object to the suggestion "get rid of these caves" being made at all.  People should be allowed to express displeasure with what they don't like.  And just having the discussion can open up alternate means of resolving the issue.  If the real issue is "I can't find the darn mobs", maybe there's other ways to address THAT, without ripping out the maps. 

 

I do enjoy the caves, and I do want to keep them, and I think the game would be diminished if they were removed.

 

If there were no good ways to make locating the mobs easier for those who feel frustrated by it, I will say I have no strong preference if the caves were taken out of the rotation for radio or newspaper missions. I'd miss them some, but as long as the caves were kept in place for story arcs and task forces, and tip missions, then I will continue to see them plenty often enough, and it would mean existing arcs / stories keep their "feel".   I think that's much less of an issue for the radio missions where I'm rescuing Joey Jones from the Circle of Thorns because of whatever 2-line intro the radio mission has. 

 

EDIT:  example alternate fix:   Maybe the Map should always show red arrows for mobs that are within X distance of you even if there's still 100 mobs left on the map, but continue to  only show you red arrows for EVERYTHING when the count is below a certain number.  Then you could still zip around the map, and you'd have a "radar" of sorts to find stragglers you missed far faster because of the "always on if within X distance" arrows.

Edited June 17, 2020 by MTeague

[Chrome]

11 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Just so you're aware, For the record, the caption I quoted was not even addressed to me, look again.

 

Secondly, saying no vote and it's a bad idea, is not dismissive, it's a vote and preference.

 

Further, you're now just trying to twist circumstance. You keep calling removing blue caves an improvement and accusing others of not wanting imrpovements.

 

Here, let me say it again: that's not an improvement to others.

 

You can feel disrespected that people don't agree with your OPINION, that's all well and good, but keep in mind that's not actual disrespect as a point of fact, we just don't agree with you.

 

If people liking things you don't, vote for what they like, state they like what you don't is somehow offensive to you, I invite you to be open minded about people who have different preferences to you.

 

What if you said "let us smoke in restaurants" and someone said no vote, don't like it. Are they wrong? Do they need to justify it? NOPE. That's the beauty of individual freedom.

 

Some of us like blue caves, just because we like them, and the idea of removing them is terrible. Accept the facts. Oh and, no one needs to explain it or justify it to you, just like I don't need to explain why I like cheesecake or married my wife. 😌

actually in a forum like this is it is considered very dismissive, at least with other people they state their opinion and say this is why i think this way, and it can be discussed, maybe coming to a compromise.  for example you love blue caves and want more maps to be designed in this fashion.  I can come in and say "thats dumb" ...or i can say hrm maybe instead of blue caves perhaps another added 3D style map that is more pleasing to the eye , and from there i would state examples...then of course you could come back and retort....it makes everything nicer , more polite, and reasonable.

this isnt a vote, this is a discussion, this may be why people are having issue with your simplistic responses.

[Chrome]

5 minutes ago, MTeague said:

I do not object to the suggestion "get rid of these caves" being made at all.  People should be allowed to express displeasure with what they don't like.  And just having the discussion can open up alternate means of resolving the issue.  If the real issue is "I can't find the darn mobs", maybe there's other ways to address THAT, without ripping out the maps. 

 

I do enjoy the caves, and I do want to keep them, and I think the game would be diminished if they were removed.

 

If there were no good ways to make locating the mobs easier for those who feel frustrated by it, I will say I have no strong preference if the caves were taken out of the rotation for radio or newspaper missions. I'd miss them some, but as long as the caves were kept in place for story arcs and task forces, and tip missions, then I will continue to see them plenty often enough, and it would mean existing arcs / stories keep their "feel".   I think that's much less of an issue for the radio missions where I'm rescuing Joey Jones from the Circle of Thorns because of whatever 2-line intro the radio mission has. 

 

EDIT:  example alternate fix:   Maybe the Map should always show red arrows for mobs that are within X distance of you even if there's still 100 mobs left on the map, but continue to  only show you red arrows for EVERYTHING when the count is below a certain number.  Then you could still zip around the map, and you'd have a "radar" of sorts to find stragglers you missed far faster because of the "always on if within X distance" arrows.

this is an interesting take on it, i think a lot of us would agree that the issue with the caves isnt in the shape, but the fact that mobs get lost in the mix and having to go back and hunt for the stray is just annoying(not difficult)perhaps adjusting the "hitbox" of the caves so that mobs dont get stuck in walls would be an even better option.