"Meta" Tweaks

[Yomo Kimyata]

I'd like to come back to the word "Meta" in the title.  I know there was another thread about what that means.  I became familiar with it in terms of the game Hearthstone, where there were periodic sweeping updates that caused change and some things would become more powerful and some less. 

 

In CoH, I think of a change in the Meta as introducing a new power set, or a new IO set.  This is a very slow game to evolve -- understandably so both in terms of human resources to code things and in terms of setting balances.  Normally, I'd be wary of introducing changes because "this is how we play now" because, well, maybe how we play will change and adapt as time goes by.  However, this is a very static game, so in my opinion changes in the meta from here on out need to mostly come from either new players trying different things or old players trying different things.

 

Personally, I would LOVE periodic massive changes, but I also get that most people would probably hate it, because change is hard!

[Xanatos]

6 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

No thank you. 

Why does every player, regardless of AT, need a nuke when teamed?

 

Judgement is the dumbest addition to the game since travel suppression / heal decay in PVP. (Two things which were, thankfully, removed from zones.)

Edited June 29, 2020 by Xanatos

[MTeague]

Honestly I think I would enjoy the game more if Incarnates literally did not exist AT ALL.  PERIOD.

 

However, that ship has long since sailed.

And, not only has that ship merely sailed, but its completed Magellen's Voyage. Several times.

It may have even planted a flag on the moon when I wasn't looking. 

It's much too late to get rid of Incarnates now.  Good/Bad/Indifferent they are too baked into player expectations.

 

I do still wish Incarates were restricted to Incarnate Content Only. That is, not available for oldschool 45+ content, not available for World Wide Red or Shadow Shard or Peregrine Radio Missions, etc.  But only available for BAF, New Dark Astoria, etc.

 

I've pretty much given up hope for that as well. 

 

PERHAPS, if we get a new expansion-pack worthy update of entirely new content, people would tolerate giving up Incarnates in older 45-50 content.  PERHAPS.   But until we got a large update of truly new content, I do not think players will accept losing access to incarntes where they already have them,  even if I personally think the idea of having access to them in any pre-incarnate content was a giant mistake.  

 

Could the devs do it anyway and say "too bad, eat yer vegetables"?  In theory yes. 

But if they haven't done it by now, the quick and simple answer is the devs simply do not agree with me, and do not feel the impact of the power creep on the last 5 levels is that big of a deal.

 

So I have only my standard existing solution.  I solo level from 45-50, AND/OR, that's when I fit in all my Task Forces, and exempt down to lower levesl to do a task force extravaganza, to get my 45-50 exp while on a team where everyone is exemplared to much lower level.  

[Apparition]

I think that the Incarnate Alpha and Destiny abilities are fine in pre-Incarnate content.  I know that if it wasn’t for the Clarion Destiny, I would not be playing Blasters nor any Corruptor, Controller, nor Defender other than Sonic Resonance.  I hate getting mezzed that danged much.  
 

Actually, people argued to restrict everything else but the Alpha abilities from regular content when it was all first in beta, but Paragon Studio insisted that they were all fine because they assumed that they could and would keep adding more and more Incarnate content to the point that Incarnate PCs would stop playing regular content.  But it is what it is now.

[golstat2003]

9 minutes ago, Apparition said:

I think that the Incarnate Alpha and Destiny abilities are fine in pre-Incarnate content.  I know that if it wasn’t for the Clarion Destiny, I would not be playing Blasters nor any Corruptor, Controller, nor Defender other than Sonic Resonance.  I hate getting mezzed that danged much.  
 

Actually, people argued to restrict everything else but the Alpha abilities from regular content when it was all first in beta, but Paragon Studio insisted that they were all fine because they assumed that they could and would keep adding more and more Incarnate content to the point that Incarnate PCs would stop playing regular content.  But it is what it is now.

That's kind of a naive view if that's what they said. At the time incarnate content needed large leagues to even start.  (And to an extent still does).

 

If I was expected to only play my incarnated characters in incarnate content, I wouldn't have ever bothered. And if Alpha were the only ability available in lvls 45-50 I would never have bothered starting the system on any character. I'm sorry but for most of my toons none of the alphas really provide anything impressive, especially with the inventions system. 

 

Alpha is a nice to have but is boring as hell for a system that is supposed to be the next level of power for our characters. 

[ShardWarrior]

1 hour ago, Xanatos said:

Why does every player, regardless of AT, need a nuke when teamed?

You mean other than some people finding it fun?

 

Incarnate characters are supposed to be powerful.  Read the text from the Mender's arc where it says people touched by the well were god-like beings.  Your character is on that path.  The problem is not incarnate abilities.   The problem is the lack of incarnate content.  Unfortunately, the game was shut down before more challenging content designed for and balanced around incarnates could be added. 

 

There is nothing stopping anyone from forming "no incarnate powers" teams.  Seems to me there are enough people on here who feel the same way.  Why not use the available tools to form a SG/VG, invite each other and team to run whatever content how you like?  That gets what you are after with zero development time required.

[Replacement]

4 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I'd like to come back to the word "Meta" in the title.  I know there was another thread about what that means.  I became familiar with it in terms of the game Hearthstone, where there were periodic sweeping updates that caused change and some things would become more powerful and some less. 

 

In CoH, I think of a change in the Meta as introducing a new power set, or a new IO set.  This is a very slow game to evolve -- understandably so both in terms of human resources to code things and in terms of setting balances.  Normally, I'd be wary of introducing changes because "this is how we play now" because, well, maybe how we play will change and adapt as time goes by.  However, this is a very static game, so in my opinion changes in the meta from here on out need to mostly come from either new players trying different things or old players trying different things.

 

Personally, I would LOVE periodic massive changes, but I also get that most people would probably hate it, because change is hard!

Not to beat my own dead horse, but this is why I would love to see a reallocation of resources (remove Beta server, maybe even condense one of our 5 shards) to create a "League" shard where we run a 3-month shard with new stuff on it.  It would be a great way to stress-test new changes, but also a release valve for some of the crazier changes.  I think we would find a great deal of players becoming eager to see some of the wilder changes rolled into the main shards, and at least they had their time in the sun with the real screwball ideas.  

 

(and then we would set it back to a standard Beta shard between League cycles)

[Xanatos]

4 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

You mean other than some people finding it fun?

 

Incarnate characters are supposed to be powerful.  Read the text from the Mender's arc where it says people touched by the well were god-like beings.  Your character is on that path.  The problem is not incarnate abilities.   The problem is the lack of incarnate content.  Unfortunately, the game was shut down before more challenging content designed for and balanced around incarnates could be added. 

 

There is nothing stopping anyone from forming "no incarnate powers" teams.  Seems to me there are enough people on here who feel the same way.  Why not use the available tools to form a SG/VG, invite each other and team to run whatever content how you like?  That gets what you are after with zero development time required.

 

You didn't answer my question.

 

Explain to me why judgement is a net-positive addition to the game.

Edited June 30, 2020 by Xanatos

[Bionic_Flea]

7 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

Explain to me why judgement is a net-positive addition to the game.

1. Because.

2. Why not.

3. It's fun.

4. Why should blasters have all the fun?

 

All that said, I wouldn't have a problem if there was an optional setting that removed access to I-Powers at 50.  But there would need to be some benefit to that.  More XP, Inf, Merits, drop chances, something.

[Apparition]

10 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

 

You didn't answer my question.

 

Explain to me why judgement is a net-positive addition to the game.

It gives Controllers something to do. /s

[ShardWarrior]

53 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

 

You didn't answer my question.

 

Explain to me why judgement is a net-positive addition to the game.

I already offered an answer to this.  Scroll up.

[Monos King]

38 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

4. Why should blasters have all the fun?

Not picking sides, but unless I'm missing some humor this isn't really an argument. If you consider the blasters style of play to be the only fun then you should be rolling a blaster. If anything that isn't bulldozing enemies in a second is universally un-fun, then it's a game design emergency...which is not the case. Blasters even trade-off to do all that, having no ingrained form of mitigation, and everyone else does not. 

 

Being immensely OP is most certainly fun (for most) but going down that direction of ever-increasing strength results in balance issues, which is not. Having infinite money would also be fun for a lot of people. In short, there were various reasons "why not" that are much too late to truly entertain now. 

[Chance Jackson]

On 6/29/2020 at 9:20 PM, Xanatos said:

 

You didn't answer my question.

 

Explain to me why judgement is a net-positive addition to the game.

-Removes small fries(minions) so that you can focus on the hard target sooner

-Speeds up mish clear times

-Provides an additional avenue to better fulfill character concepts 

Edited July 2, 2020 by Chance Jackson

[Monos King]

I'd also just like to say I absolutely loved incarnates when they first came out because of their power, but even more because of their exclusivity. These were immense abilities, build transforming powers, and it took a LOT of effort to get them. Rightfully so, because they are, as literally described, godlike. Not everyone ran around with them, they were a real accomplishment to obtain (especially the higher tiers) and to some extent there was a stream of content to use them in. The game was different then, it was not a rush to 50 (because that was also significantly harder) and incarnates were not something you were completely expected to have. This means it wasn't seen everywhere, you did not see gods intruding on peasant teams, and there was a better balance. I still like incarnates, but it's impossible not to acknowledge they heavily contribute to the problem of other ATs having little relevance if they aren't damage. As some have already implied, damage is just what's more favorable now. Everyone having a nuke, and then even blasters having a MoG contributes to it undeniably.

 

I also want to point out that it was not the fact that there was growing pools of incarnate content that kept incarnate players there and not in lower content, or at least not how many interpret that statement. What it really means is it was the process of expanding their incarnate powers. Unlocking, getting threads, getting components - these were all done exclusively in incarnate content. We were occupied. There were even locks and daily limits that made the process more lengthy, it was in these interludes you might have found a mighty incarnate lower themself to ordinary content, if they didn't switch to an alt to repeat the process. The fact that it is so easy to get them outside of said content is why you see them so often.

 

Anyway, I'm not advocating for a removal of incarnates or anything but I did want to unravel why they are seen to be problematic and where that problem came from.

In short, they contribute to  undermining individual ATs roles and making content a damage rush.

Edited June 30, 2020 by Monos King

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, Monos King said:

I'd also just like to say I absolutely loved incarnates when they first came out because of their power, but even more because of their exclusivity. These were immense abilities, build transforming powers, and it took a LOT of effort to get them. Rightfully so, because they are, as literally described, godlike. Not everyone ran around with them, they were a real accomplishment to obtain (especially the higher tiers) and to some extent there was a stream of content to use them in. The game was different then, it was not a rush to 50 (because that was also significantly harder) and incarnates were not something you were completely expected to have. This means it wasn't seen everywhere, you did not see gods intruding on peasant teams, and there was a better balance. I still like incarnates, but it's impossible not to acknowledge they heavily contribute to the problem of other ATs having little relevance if they aren't damage. As some have already implied, damage is just what's more favorable now. Everyone having a nuke, and then even blasters having a MoG contributes to it undeniably.

 

I also want to point out that it was not the fact that there was growing pools of incarnate content that kept incarnate players there and not in lower content, or at least not how many interpret that statement. What it really means is it was the process of expanding their incarnate powers. Unlocking, getting threads, getting components - these were all done exclusively in incarnate content. We were occupied. There were even locks and daily limits that made the process more lengthy, it was in these interludes you might have found a mighty incarnate lower themself to ordinary content, if they didn't switch to an alt to repeat the process. The fact that it is so easy to get them outside of said content is why you see them so often.

 

Anyway, I'm not advocating for a removal of incarnates or anything but I did want to unravel why they are seen to be problematic and where that problem came from.

In short, they contribute to  undermining individual ATs roles and making content a damage rush.

Hmmm, one could argue IOs started us long down that path before Judgement and family came into existence. Especially with purples, attuned IOs, and the constant inclusion of Set IOs that gave new ways to get +recharge.

[ShardWarrior]

8 hours ago, Monos King said:

Anyway, I'm not advocating for a removal of incarnates or anything but I did want to unravel why they are seen to be problematic and where that problem came from.

In short, they contribute to  undermining individual ATs roles and making content a damage rush.

Incarnates are not a problem.  The lack of content designed for and balanced around them is the problem. 

[Zeraphia]

1 hour ago, ShardWarrior said:

Incarnates are not a problem.  The lack of content designed for and balanced around them is the problem. 

I've said this so many times. We. Need. More. Difficult, Incarnate-level, Content.

[Apparition]

1 hour ago, ShardWarrior said:

Incarnates are not a problem.  The lack of content designed for and balanced around them is the problem. 

 

4 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

I've said this so many times. We. Need. More. Difficult, Incarnate-level, Content.

 

I agree.  However, I don't expect it to happen for a long time, if ever.  This is a volunteer team running the game on limited time and resources.  Even then, if they do spend some of that limited time and resources on Incarnate level content, not everyone will see it/use it, and some people will get upset.  I don't understand it myself, but a lot of people resent the Incarnate system.  Heck, Massively OP, which was extremely influential in bringing the game back to us, ran an editorial several years ago stating that the Incarnate system was the worst thing that ever happened to CoH and should have never been added.  There were even comments made on that article by people agreeing, saying that the Incarnate system drove them off from CoH.  You see similar comments along those lines on the Homecoming forums even.

[golstat2003]

8 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

 

I agree.  However, I don't expect it to happen for a long time, if ever.  This is a volunteer team running the game on limited time and resources.  Even then, if they do spend some of that limited time and resources on Incarnate level content, not everyone will see it/use it, and some people will get upset.  I don't understand it myself, but a lot of people resent the Incarnate system.  Heck, Massively OP, which was extremely influential in bringing the game back to us, ran an editorial several years ago stating that the Incarnate system was the worst thing that ever happened to CoH and should have never been added.  There were even comments made on that article by people agreeing, saying that the Incarnate system drove them off from CoH.  You see similar comments along those lines on the Homecoming forums even.

I find it a bit funny and somewhat shortsighted. Because without it, I know quite a few vets that would have left years before the shutdown on live. Myself included. It (Incarnates) extended the life of the game the same way the Invention system did on live at the time it came out, and the same way purples, pvp IOs and Attunded IOs did. And HC making it easier to get into those systems (including their seeding of the market to keep prices low) is one of the reasons I stuck with HC when the dam on rogues servers broke a year+ back.

 

Each major system change extends the life of an mmo. It's either that or constant content updates. Costume changes alone would not have allowed COH to run as long as it did on live.

Edited June 30, 2020 by golstat2003

[ShardWarrior]

2 minutes ago, Apparition said:

I agree.  However, I don't expect it to happen for a long time, if ever.  This is a volunteer team running the game on limited time and resources.  Even then, if they do spend some of that limited time and resources on Incarnate level content, not everyone will see it/use it, and some people will get upset.  I don't understand it myself, but a lot of people resent the Incarnate system.  Heck, Massively OP, which was extremely influential in bringing the game back to us, ran an editorial several years ago stating that the Incarnate system was the worst thing that ever happened to CoH and should have never been added.  There were even comments made on that article by people agreeing, saying that the Incarnate system drove them off from CoH.  You see similar comments along those lines on the Homecoming forums even.

Some people are going to get upset no matter what anyone does.  People who do not like the Incarnate system can skip it entirely or go and play something else, that is their choice.  Quite clear there are people who enjoy having it in game and want it to remain.  I am sure there were other reviews around the web who felt Incarnates were a great addition.  There is no right or wrong answer.

 

Yes, this is a small volunteer group and any new major content updates are unlikely.  With that said, the problem here as I see it is that people do not want to do any work themselves.  For those that do not like it, what exactly is preventing them from using the available tools in game, here on the forums or on social media to seek out like minded players?  Form a group, team up together and play the way you want with no incarnate powers at all.  The solution to the perceived problem is there, just no one wants to do what would be required to correct it.  They would rather someone else do it for them or force everyone to play as they like.

 

I can only speak to my experience here, but I have yet to see any "no incarnate powers" TFs advertised in LFG or any of the teaming channels.

 

 

[Apparition]

3 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

I find it a bit funny and somewhat shortsighted. Because without it, I know quite a few vets that would have left years before the shutdown on live. Myself included. It (Incarnates) extended the life of the game the same way the Invention system did on live at the time it came out, and the same way purples, pvp IOs and Attunded IOs did. And HC making it easier to get into that system is one of the reasons I stuck with HC when the damn on rogues servers broke a year+ back.

 

Each major system change extends the life of an mmo. It's either that or constant content updates. Costume changes alone would not have allowed COH to run as long as it did on live.

 

I agree.  I just brought it up because adding Incarnate level content is not as straight of a win as it would seem.

[ShardWarrior]

1 minute ago, Apparition said:

I agree.  I just brought it up because adding Incarnate level content is not as straight of a win as it would seem.

What content update is ever a complete "win"?  There are always people who will like or dislike a change.

[golstat2003]

1 minute ago, ShardWarrior said:

Some people are going to get upset no matter what anyone does.  People who do not like the Incarnate system can skip it entirely or go and play something else, that is their choice.  Quite clear there are people who enjoy having it in game and want it to remain.  I am sure there were other reviews around the web who felt Incarnates were a great addition.  There is no right or wrong answer.

 

Yes, this is a small volunteer group and any new major content updates are unlikely.  With that said, the problem here as I see it is that people do not want to do any work themselves.  For those that do not like it, what exactly is preventing them from using the available tools in game, here on the forums or on social media to seek out like minded players?  Form a group, team up together and play the way you want with no incarnate powers at all.  The solution to the perceived problem is there, just no one wants to do what would be required to correct it.  They would rather someone else do it for them or force everyone to play as they like.

 

I can only speak to my experience here, but I have yet to see any "no incarnate powers" TFs advertised in LFG or any of the teaming channels.

 

 

Also folks act like Incarnates are some beast that is inevitable for every level 50 or that they are something that you can't work around.

 

Team leaders can do as you mention and also ask incarnates to unslot those powers. (They can actually be unslotted easier than enhancements, and changed to different powers easier than primary/secondary/pool powers). And if you (in general) don't even like the system, newsflash: don't craft the powers!

 

I bet you money though, as you alude to, many more folks prefer incarnates as is (including using them as they see fit in ALL content, at ALL levels), than those that would be willing to unslot them. I don't consider this a problem that needs fixing at all.

[Xanatos]

12 hours ago, Apparition said:

It gives Controllers something to do. /s

 

Haha! This I can get behind.

 

(Thanks for actually answering my question.)

Edited June 30, 2020 by Xanatos

[Monos King]

4 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

Incarnates are not a problem.  The lack of content designed for and balanced around them is the problem. 

Well I did have an entire paragraph saying that.

 

Note that I was elucidating why incarnates are perceived to be a problem. Regardless of if you want to be caught in the semantics of "incarnates isn't a problem content is the problem" phrasing though, the issues definitely stand. Why, you could even say incarnates are a problem because there is no content designed for and balanced around them. In this instance, addressing the issue will be exactly the same even if you want to word it differently because certain players concerns are the same. And my point was that this concern is "I feel like my contribution is undermined by incarnates or defined by incarnates". 

 

Still not calling for their removal. I enjoy being an incarnate. Incarnates aren't going anywhere, so anyone that thinks "man I wish incarnates would go" is really just ranting, but if you want to get everyone of one mind on how to address this whole incarnate altercation, you're gonna want to understand where they're coming from.

Edited June 30, 2020 by Monos King