44.5x% or 45% for defense softcap?

[fitzsimmons]

Splitting hairs but I was curious if 44.5 (or even 44.51) rolled up to 45 and was effectively softcapped defense.  I have a toon at 44.58 and beyond boosting everything in sight and taking T4 agility, I can’t squeeze anything else out of it.

 

Does it really matter?  No, but I guess it’s more of a status thing.

 

Thanks,

Dave

 

 

[Bopper]

No, it doesn't round up. They will have a 5.5% to-hit chance (before accuracy is factored in). The difference between that and being softcapped (5% to-hit chance) means the enemies will hit you 10% more often.

[Bopper]

All that being said...it doesn't really matter that much. If you can apply a to-hit debuff or a teammate runs maneuvers, you're set.

[fitzsimmons]

Thanks, can remedy without the need for a respec by pulling out one of 3 uniques I have in maneuvers (kismet, shield wall or reactive) and replacing with a defense/end.

 

Unfortunately I don’t have a -tohit on this guy (fire/cold corr).  Snowstorm should be a -tohit power.  How can they hit me if they’re freezing cold?

 

Anyway, thanks.

[Hyperstrike]

1 hour ago, fitzsimmons said:

Thanks, can remedy without the need for a respec by pulling out one of 3 uniques I have in maneuvers (kismet, shield wall or reactive) and replacing with a defense/end.

 

Unfortunately I don’t have a -tohit on this guy (fire/cold corr).  Snowstorm should be a -tohit power.  How can they hit me if they’re freezing cold?

 

Anyway, thanks.

Yank the Kismet.  Unless you SEVERELY underslotted +Acc and +ToHit, you won't miss it.

 

[Gulbasaur]

4 hours ago, Bopper said:

They will have a 5.5% to-hit chance (before accuracy is factored in). The difference between that and being softcapped (5% to-hit chance) means the enemies will hit you 10% more often.

While this is factually correct, it also obscures the truth a bit (as is often the case with statistics). I used to teach mathematics and statistics is something that confuses people so I just want this to be super clear:

 

That's 10% of a 5% chance - 10% of 5% is 0.5%. It's 0.5% on top of 5%. That's still less than one in nineteen hits attempted hits making contact.

 

It's 11 hits in every 200 as opposed to 10 in every 200. 

4 hours ago, fitzsimmons said:

Does it really matter?  No, but I guess it’s more of a status thing.

Not in any practical sense - you'll be hit, on average, once more for every two hundred attempts. If your build can't survive that, it has bigger problems. 

 

Also, everyone and their cow runs Maneuvers, if not force fields/mind link/link minds/farsight etc. Past level about thirty, the second you step into a team you'll be well over the soft cap. 

 

A single inspiration will see you through those two-hundred-and-one hits easily enough and usually bounce you up enough that if you get defence debuffed it doesn't mean certain death. 

 

FWIW I used to solo AVs on 35% defence with my widow before I got bored of soloing AVs. People who say anything lower than 45% defence is worthless (and I'm not saying anyone in this thread is) just aren't paying attention to how percentages of percentages work. 

Edited July 7, 2020 by Gulbasaur

[nihilii]

47 minutes ago, Gulbasaur said:

Not in any practical sense - you'll be hit, on average, once more for every two hundred attempts. If your build can't survive that, it has bigger problems. 

IMHO, within the context of getting hit 10% more, it doesn't matter whether you get hit 10 or 11 in 200 times, 10 or 11 in 2000 times or 10 or 11 in 200000000000 times to start with.

 

Logically the only moment your mitigation matters is once incoming damage is high enough the possibility of dying exists. In which case, those 10 hits that do get in are at least close to what you can sustain.

 

Once this point is reached, this extra 1 hit in 200 is still 10% more damage taken in practice, and it is possible for that extra 10% to tip you over the edge where you die rather than barely survive. Net result: you will need 10% more mitigation through other means to maintain the level of survivability you would have.

But I'll join the chorus: for the purpose of general play, running 44.5% defense is perfectly fine. Likely you would never be able to tell the difference in a blind test. It's only important to be aware of the distinction if you have solo no insps survivability oriented challenge goals and want to squeeze every last possible performance drop out of your build.

[Gulbasaur]

3 hours ago, nihilii said:

Net result: you will need 10% more mitigation through other means to maintain the level of survivability you would have.

That's true enough and I fully recommend the Reactive Defences proc that gives you between 3 and 13% global damage resistance, dependent on health. Another one gives you a 5% global res boost and the +absorb proc in Preventative Medicine is really helpful for those rare occasions where enemies get two good hits in in quick succession. Those three are very good value enhancements in terms of their impact-per-slot.

 

I'd say a couple of those is much more likely to add value than reworking an entire build for half a percentage point of defence. 

 

Several sets (the Widow secondaries and Super Reflexes) also have a scaling damage resistance boost, which mean the more damage you've taken the more damage you can take. They don't show up in the Hero Planner so people often don't realise they're there, somewhat underselling the powersets. I'm a "fast, loose and chaotic" player and I absolutely don't look at my health bar until I see the words Preventative Medicine appear on my screen, because above about 40% defence I don't feel I really have to. 

 

8 hours ago, fitzsimmons said:

Thanks, can remedy without the need for a respec by pulling out one of 3 uniques I have in maneuvers (kismet, shield wall or reactive)

Two of the uniques you have in there give you significantly more survivability than having an extra half a percent of typed defence. Defence is only part of the equation. Don't bite off your nose to spite your face. 

Edited July 7, 2020 by Gulbasaur

[Seigmoraig]

7 hours ago, fitzsimmons said:

Thanks, can remedy without the need for a respec by pulling out one of 3 uniques I have in maneuvers (kismet, shield wall or reactive)

Other than Kismet, those 2 uniques are much more valuable than 0.5% defence. If you are over resist cap on Smash, Lethal and Energy you might consider removing one of them but if not you aren't gaining anything by ditching them for some defence. I would even argue that those are some of the 2 most valuable uniques and should never be on the chopping block in any build.

 

If you character is melee, you probably need every layer of defence you can get but if you are any sort of ranged character you can get by with much less than 45% defs since you aren't in the direct line of fire most of the time

[Bopper]

6 hours ago, Gulbasaur said:

While this is factually correct, it also obscures the truth a bit (as is often the case with statistics). I used to teach mathematics and statistics is something that confuses people so I just want this to be super clear:

 

That's 10% of a 5% chance - 10% of 5% is 0.5%. It's 0.5% on top of 5%. That's still less than one in nineteen hits attempted hits making contact.

 

It's 11 hits in every 200 as opposed to 10 in every 200

Folks tend to forget accuracy. You have only a 5.5% chance of being hit by even con minions and lower. When you factor in rank accuracy mods and relative level accuracy mods, the end number is actually a bit higher.

 

If we looked at a boss that is +4, you get:

Chance to hit at softcap: 5% x 1.30 x 1.40 = 9.1%

Chance to hit at 44.5%: 5.5% x 1.30 x 1.40 = 10.01%

 

In this scenario, it becomes being hit 9 times out of 100 versus being 10 times out of 100. You might not notice much of a difference there, unless debuffs are at play.

[marcussmythe]

Another consideration - I dont know what powerset or AT you are on, or what content you are interested in - but if your focused on DEF, I would consider going above 44.5/45 unless you are  (1) Not pushing incarnate content (Incarnate opponents are more accurate), and (2) Have heavy defense debuff resistance (every mob in the game it seems debuffs DEF at the endgame).

 

I like to have some breathing room to absorb incoming debuffs and retain my 'soft cap' - as this can delay or avoid a cascade collapse and the weird place where you go from 'Capped DEF Capped RES' to 'Negative DEF Negative RES' followed by a faceplant in a few seconds.  Even with Tank Superreflexes nigh-immunity to DEF Debuffs, a few more points is a welcome security blanket.

 

OTOH, on a Blaster, that 44.5/45% likely represents a huge investment of build resources, and much higher is either impossible, or at huge cost - you might be just perfect where you are on such a character.

 

[fitzsimmons]

Appreciate the conversation folks.  It’s a fire/cold corr.  Feels pretty good at around 44.5 ish for melee and north of 45 for ranged.

 

Certainly any defense debuffs will lead to cascading failures pretty quickly but it is what it is.

 

That’s where running (I mean strategizing) comes into play.

[marcussmythe]

On a cold corruptor?  Yeah, your fine.  Carry some purples and know to use them before the debuffs start coming in.  Accolades and the DDR incarnate and an Agility you can swap in should round out everything else you might need.

[tidge]

12 hours ago, fitzsimmons said:

Thanks, can remedy without the need for a respec by pulling out one of 3 uniques I have in maneuvers (kismet, shield wall or reactive) and replacing with a defense/end.

 

11 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

Yank the Kismet.  Unless you SEVERELY underslotted +Acc and +ToHit, you won't miss it.

 

6 hours ago, Gulbasaur said:

Two of the uniques you have in there give you significantly more survivability than having an extra half a percent of typed defence. Defence is only part of the equation. Don't bite off your nose to spite your face. 

I want amplify the point about NOT giving up Shield Wall or Reactive Defenses: Scaling Damage Resistance. Shield Wall's unique is a Global, you will benefit from it even if you don't have Maneuvers toggled on. I'm pretty sure that Scaling Damage Resistance is the same, except that it won't scale below level 22 (assuming it is attuned or at the lowest level).

 

Contrast with: Kismet's "Accuracy" bonus (really ToHit) will only be active if Maneuvers is toggled on. If you are leaning into Kismet, it really is best to add this to an Auto power. My experience has been that unless you are monitoring your combat stats, it will generally be hard to notice what the 6% ToHit bonus is doing for you... especially if you have invested in many set bonuses (e.g. Very Rares and/or superior ATOs) which are granting global accuracy bonuses. The ToHit bonus does contribute to extra damage on Snipe attacks; I have exactly one character that has Kismet's Unique slotted in Maneuvers specifically to get the extra damage... I don't love this choice, but I didn't have a better place for that unique and I didn't have a better use for the slot without a radical restructuring of the character.

[Doomguide2005]

And last but yet unmentioned that I could see there's Enhancement Boosters.  Unless all your +defense enhancements are all boosted to +5 you might eke out that last 0.5% with boosting stuff.  I probably wouldn't lose any sleep on it however ... just mentioned for completeness sake.

Edited July 7, 2020 by Doomguide2005