Rad or Invuln

[Sovera]

Anytime I hear about Cardiac (or worse, Agility), I just go mah hart, mah sole. The loss of Musculature 45% cannot be recouped where Recovery can between near gratis Serums and IOs and bonuses.

[Tsuko]

Sorry to keep the "out of subjet" train on the rails 🙂

 

But there is a thing i still dont understand :

 

I have tons of Bio scrapper and stalker, for damage purpose, obviously.

 

But how can a Bio tanker with almost no resistances and no DDR be considered top tier ?

 

I m sure a bio tanker can have the job done with a good build, but it made literrally months i try to build a "top tier" BIO tanker and all the results looks so "meh" compared to my Dark MA, Stone Dark and even my Fiery EM tanker.

Edited August 5, 2020 by Tsuko

[Xanatos]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

Anytime I hear about Cardiac (or worse, Agility), I just go mah hart, mah sole. The loss of Musculature 45% cannot be recouped where Recovery can between near gratis Serums and IOs and bonuses.

 

My invuln is built for set bonuses, not procs. So musculature is useless.

[Sovera]

10 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

 

My invuln is built for set bonuses, not procs. So musculature is useless.

How is a 45% damage increase useless? Unless you're from the school of thought that a Tanker should be low damage.

[Xanatos]

18 minutes ago, Sovera said:

How is a 45% damage increase useless? Unless you're from the school of thought that a Tanker should be low damage.

 

If I'm slotting my attacks for 95-100%% damage with purples/ATO/WOS/etc then musculature provides like 20 extra damage. Which is...useless.

 

If I'm slotting out my attacks for 70-80% damage (due to proccing them out) then musculature would be more useful.

 

But, as I said, I don't really use damage procs in my attacks on my invuln as I build for set bonuses for maximum survivability. So cardiac is a much better option.

Edited August 5, 2020 by Xanatos

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, Tsuko said:

But how can a Bio tanker with almost no resistances and no DDR be considered top tier ?

Extra damage means things die faster and having 2 powers that grant absorption on top of another that heals self counts up to a lot of mitigation.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Xanatos said:

If I'm slotting my attacks for 95-100%% damage with purples/ATO/WOS/etc then musculature provides like 20 extra damage. Which is...useless.

Heresy. Where's my bolter?

[Omega-202]

25 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

 

My invuln is built for set bonuses, not procs. So musculature is useless.

Unless you're damage capping consistently, Musculature isn't useless.  Especially since your endurance management can be addressed in other ways.  With both accolades, the big 4 end IOs and a sprinkling of bonuses (+total end being the best), you shouldn't need Cardiac.  Worst case, you're still better off going Musculature Radial to give you 33% damage (~23% after ED cap) and an extra SOs worth of endmod in Stamina.  

 

Or are you running Cardiac for the Resistance?  

[Xanatos]

1 minute ago, Omega-202 said:

Unless you're damage capping consistently, Musculature isn't useless.  Especially since your endurance management can be addressed in other ways.  With both accolades, the big 4 end IOs and a sprinkling of bonuses (+total end being the best), you shouldn't need Cardiac.  Worst case, you're still better off going Musculature Radial to give you 33% damage (~23% after ED cap) and an extra SOs worth of endmod in Stamina.  

 

Or are you running Cardiac for the Resistance?  

 

20 extra damage per attack is useless.

 

And yes I'm also running Cardiac for the res and range.

[Omega-202]

10 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

 

20 extra damage per attack is useless.

 

And yes I'm also running Cardiac for the res and range.

No, it's 20% more damage.  It may be a marginal benefit, but it's still a benefit.  

 

Extra endurance or endurance reduction when you're already at endurance self sufficiency is actually useless.  Extra resistance when you're at the resistance caps, or more practically, when you're immortal in 99% of content is actually useless.  

 

But if you are otherwise not resistance capped or have end issues, then fine, go Cardiac.  

[Banni]

I just want to say thank you for this thread. I don‘t enjoy theory crafting and the number crunch you are doing here. Nevertheless Im impressed. 
 

What I have learned: It does not really matter what armor set you are playing. Ras or Invul, both are great. 

[Xanatos]

1 minute ago, Omega-202 said:

No, it's 20% more damage.  It may be a marginal benefit, but it's still a benefit.  

 

No. It's 20 more damage. I know this because I just looked in mids and compared the damage before/after toggling musculature on/off on a tanker attack that had 90-100% damage slotting.

 

The extra resistance, range, and having my toggles/attacks costing less endurance, far outweigh such a mniniscule increase in damage.

[Omega-202]

1 minute ago, Xanatos said:

 

No. It's 20 more damage. I know this because I just looked in mids and compared the damage before/after toggling musculature on/off on a tanker attack that had 90-100% damage slotting.

 

The extra resistance, range, and having my toggles/attacks costing less endurance, far outweigh such a mniniscule increase in damage.

Cool, I'm not going to give you a math lesson on how percentages work.  You do you.  

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

 

No. It's 20 more damage. I know this because I just looked in mids and compared the damage before/after toggling musculature on/off on a tanker attack that had 90-100% damage slotting.

 

The extra resistance, range, and having my toggles/attacks costing less endurance, far outweigh such a mniniscule increase in damage.

Going purely off Mids with Arcanatime enabled:

With musculature on:

Followup- 323.9 over 1.188s

Focus- 728.7 over 1.32s

Slash- 629.3 over 1.584s

Total = 1681.9 over 4.092s or 411 DPS

With musculature disabled:

FU- 291.7 over 1.188s

Focus- 665.7 over 1.32s

Slash- 569.4 over 1.584s

Total = 1526.8 over 4.092s or 373 DPS

 

Difference of 38 DPS is a little different than "it's 20 more damage."

[Xanatos]

24 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Going purely off Mids with Arcanatime enabled:

With musculature on:

Followup- 323.9 over 1.188s

Focus- 728.7 over 1.32s

Slash- 629.3 over 1.584s

Total = 1681.9 over 4.092s or 411 DPS

With musculature disabled:

FU- 291.7 over 1.188s

Focus- 665.7 over 1.32s

Slash- 569.4 over 1.584s

Total = 1526.8 over 4.092s or 373 DPS

 

Difference of 38 DPS is a little different than "it's 20 more damage."

 

Inv/Claws tank?

Edited August 5, 2020 by Xanatos

[Gobbledigook]

Thing is Tankers are tough with very little effort. You could go full on survival build but it is overkill for pretty much all content or you could just get to a good place in survival and then bump up your damage. Mobs that die fast offer no threat.

 

You can be the Tanker that just Taunts and stands there letting the team do the killing or you could do a considerable amount of contribution to the teams dps whilst tanking. You can be the Tanker that is unkillable surrounded by 20 mobs for 1 minute slowly taking damage before they die  or you could be the Tanker that is surrounded by 20 mobs for 20 seconds before they die taking a little more damage but for a lot less time. 

 

Invuln is very tough out of the box and needs only a few holes plugged, why not then invest in more dps.

 

 

Edited August 5, 2020 by Gobbledegook

[Sovera]

11 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Going purely off Mids with Arcanatime enabled:

With musculature on:

Followup- 323.9 over 1.188s

Focus- 728.7 over 1.32s

Slash- 629.3 over 1.584s

Total = 1681.9 over 4.092s or 411 DPS

With musculature disabled:

FU- 291.7 over 1.188s

Focus- 665.7 over 1.32s

Slash- 569.4 over 1.584s

Total = 1526.8 over 4.092s or 373 DPS

 

Difference of 38 DPS is a little different than "it's 20 more damage."

Ran a little test since it's good not to blindly trust Mids. Simply spamming Focus with or without Musculature was a 15% damage difference.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, Xanatos said:

 

Inv/Claws tank?

Nope. Here's the SR/Claws tank.

With:

FU- 198.6

Focus- 477.6

Slash- 467.1

Total = 1143.3 over 4.092s or 279DPS

Without:

FU- 181.3

Focus- 445

Slash- 431.2

Total = 1057.5 over 4.092 or 258

 

Still a difference of 21 DPS, so if that's what you meant by "it's 20 more damage," then cool but that's not how it read and I still consider 20 more DPS on a tank anything but "useless."

[marcussmythe]

14 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

Thing is Tankers are tough with very little effort. You could go full on survival build but it is overkill for pretty much all content or you could just get to a good place in survival and then bump up your damage. Mobs that die fast offer no threat.

 

You can be the Tanker that just Taunts and stands there letting the team do the killing or you could do a considerable amount of contribution to the teams dps whilst tanking. You can be the Tanker that is unkillable surrounded by 20 mobs for 1 minute slowly taking damage before they die  or you could be the Tanker that is surrounded by 20 mobs for 20 seconds before they die taking a little more damage but for a lot less time. 

 

Invuln is very tough out of the box and needs only a few holes plugged, why not then invest in more dps.

 

 

That is the entire theory behind my 'Tough Enough' Invuln/EM - though there are very strong arguments that a 'Tough Enough' approach is better suited to Radiation (inasmuch as Radiation hits diminishing returns on survival investment far earlier than invuln does).

 

I recommend Invuln for multi-build setups, and Radiation for single-build approaches.  Both are excellent.

[Sovera]

7 minutes ago, marcussmythe said:

That is the entire theory behind my 'Tough Enough' Invuln/EM - though there are very strong arguments that a 'Tough Enough' approach is better suited to Radiation (inasmuch as Radiation hits diminishing returns on survival investment far earlier than invuln does).

 

I recommend Invuln for multi-build setups, and Radiation for single-build approaches.  Both are excellent.

FIRRRRRREEEEEEEEE!

[Infinitum]

Yeah I get the musculature argument, but I would rather the alpha support sustainability. 

 

For damage I almost always go assault and have melee as a backup.

[marcussmythe]

5 minutes ago, Sovera said:

FIRRRRRREEEEEEEEE!

Fire would also be an excellent choice for that.  Ive got an oldschool Fire/Fire (aiming for Fire/Fire/Fire) waiting in the wings - shes just a bit hard for me, because were still low level and she is soooo squishy in her 20s, compared to what I'm used it. 

 

Ill be curious when I get her to 50 to see how tough I can make a Fire/Fire on her 'tough' side (thats definitely a great use case for a double or triple build - one to prove Fire can tank Recluse without support, and one to see how much damage I can get out of a Tank chassis).  If I ever get her up there, I'll likely be cribbing off the fire side of your build.

[marcussmythe]

Just now, Infinitum said:

Yeah I get the musculature argument, but I would rather the alpha support sustainability. 

 

For damage I almost always go assault and have melee as a backup.

Get them all!  Swap Incarantes and Builds to fit mission and mood!  Profit!

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 minutes ago, marcussmythe said:

Get them all!  Swap Incarantes and Builds to fit mission and mood!  Profit!

There is this. What the hell else are you gonna do with all that excess incarnate junk?

 

That said, I almost always start with Musc Core, Degen Core and Assault Core. I like damage.

[Xanatos]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Nope. Here's the SR/Claws tank.

With:

FU- 198.6

Focus- 477.6

Slash- 467.1

Total = 1143.3 over 4.092s or 279DPS

Without:

FU- 181.3

Focus- 445

Slash- 431.2

Total = 1057.5 over 4.092 or 258

 

Still a difference of 21 DPS, so if that's what you meant by "it's 20 more damage," then cool but that's not how it read and I still consider 20 more DPS on a tank anything but "useless."

 

Yeah those were my findings, too.

 

That's why I said musculature was useless [on an invuln not using damage procs in attacks].

 

Everyone who attempted to argue with me, for some reason, ignored the bit in square brackets.