How could we get you to try

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, barrier said:

oh the absurdity of that first line. again: videogame.

Agreed. It's 100% absurd.

[Nanolathe]

@barrier Maybe that just shows up procs as being a bad thing for PvP? (and maybe a bad thing for the game in general?)

Especially since it's SO heavily skewed in favour of offence.

Edited September 17, 2020 by Nanolathe

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, Nanolathe said:

@barrier Maybe that just shows up procs as being a bad thing for PvP? (and maybe a bad thing for the game in general?)

I honestly can't make a judgement call on procs because I have refused to go down that path so far. I like set bonuses, especially that 10% +recharge from 5 purples which lets me have two procs in all my purpled attacks. The math-head in my brain sees the benefit in going proc-monster, the purist rails against it.

 

Heard rumors that procs may be "adjusted" again. Didn't like the PPM changes so I rather doubt I'll be all that hip on the next alteration but whatever. Long as I can take down pylons in less than 3 mins, I'm a happy camper.

[DrBasics]

I mean in this thread of trying to get people who are not interested in PVP to try it, there are two sides. One side is for-PVP, the other is against-PVP. Just skimming through the thread you get the overall vibe of the "against-PVP crowd" saying that the main reason is the toxic behavior of the PVP community. The overall vibe of the "for-PVP" crowd is saying that PVP in every game is the same (that translates to the against-PVP crowd as "the PVP community in every game is toxic"). This isn't a good way to get non-pvp people to "try pvp".

[Mirai]

League of Legends is designed to be a PvP game. Players constantly complain about balance, and routinely declare that the developers just don't care, despite the constant balance changes the devs put in. In the old days of CoH it was worse. With far more assortments of powers available to players, there is no reasonable way to balance characters in CoH for PvP. Heroic attempts were made, and they failed to please PvP players, and the devs finally gave up. I would encourage the current developers to not waste their limited time with it. There are much more broadly useful things for them to be doing.

 

[Xanatos]

"I might be lactose intolerant, but the main reason I don't want to eat that cheesecake is because the waiter is rude."

[Neiska]

3 minutes ago, Mirai said:

League of Legends is designed to be a PvP game. Players constantly complain about balance, and routinely declare that the developers just don't care, despite the constant balance changes the devs put in. In the old days of CoH it was worse. With far more assortments of powers available to players, there is no reasonable way to balance characters in CoH for PvP. Heroic attempts were made, and they failed to please PvP players, and the devs finally gave up. I would encourage the current developers to not waste their limited time with it. There are much more broadly useful things for them to be doing.

 

Speaking purely for myself, I cannot recall any game where the PVP crowd was 100% happy. If there are examples of a healthy, thriving, vibrant PVP community, I would be curious as to what some examples might be. And I always hated games that tweaked PvE mechanics or abilities for PVP reasons, and vice versa. I am not saying they should be seprated or the same in CoH or any other game, there are far wiser heads than mine who could run those numbers. I just hated when they change one aspect of the game for the sake of another, when supposedly they were seperate systems or not related to one another.

[Lines]

7 minutes ago, DrBasics said:

I mean in this thread of trying to get people who are not interested in PVP to try it, there are two sides. One side is for-PVP, the other is against-PVP. Just skimming through the thread you get the overall vibe of the "against-PVP crowd" saying that the main reason is the toxic behavior of the PVP community. The overall vibe of the "for-PVP" crowd is saying that PVP in every game is the same (that translates to the against-PVP crowd as "the PVP community in every game is toxic"). This isn't a good way to get non-pvp people to "try pvp".

I think you're right, but the conclusion of that dichotomy is that a lot of people simply aren't the target audience.

 

I don't think it's something that can be or necessarily needs to be fixed.

[MTeague]

2 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

"I might be lactose intolerant, but the main reason I don't want to eat that cheesecake is because the waiter is rude."

Well.  Let's face it, if staff at a restatraunt is rude, it's quite likely many people will leave and never come back.

And it's not necessarily just the person the waiter was rude to.  Patrons at nearby tables may also decide to vote with their wallet.

That happens, in the real world, every day.

[Neiska]

3 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

"I might be lactose intolerant, but the main reason I don't want to eat that cheesecake is because the waiter is rude."

I would say its more of a "I like to eat out. But I dont like that one resteraunt." To which we are hearing "But not all resteraunts are bad". And I would say "Youre right, they arent all bad, but that doesnt make me like that one resteraunt any better. Comparing this bad resteraunt to another bad resteraunt isnt going to make me suddenly like bad resteraunts."

[DrBasics]

4 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

"I might be lactose intolerant, but the main reason I don't want to eat that cheesecake is because the waiter is rude."

What you fail to realize is that even those that are NOT lactose intolerant are not going to want to eat the cheesecake because the waiter is rude.

[macskull]

2 minutes ago, MTeague said:

Well.  Let's face it, if staff at a restatraunt is rude, it's quite likely many people will leave and never come back.

And it's not necessarily just the person the waiter was rude to.  Patrons at nearby tables may also decide to vote with their wallet.

That happens, in the real world, every day.

Meanwhile, a reasonable person might be upset by that but will also realize that maybe that waiter is having a bad day and isn't usually like this and will withhold snap judgement. If I go to a restaurant and they mess up my order I'm not going to immediately swear off that restaurant forever. I'm going to give it a few more tries to see if that was a one-off thing or if it happens repeatedly.

[barrier]

Just now, macskull said:

Meanwhile, a reasonable person might be upset by that but will also realize that maybe that waiter is having a bad day and isn't usually like this and will withhold snap judgement. If I go to a restaurant and they mess up my order I'm not going to immediately swear off that restaurant forever. I'm going to give it a few more tries to see if that was a one-off thing or if it happens repeatedly.

Sometimes, it's also totally worth putting up with the annoying waiter to have a five-star meal.

[MTeague]

Just now, macskull said:

Meanwhile, a reasonable person might be upset by that but will also realize that maybe that waiter is having a bad day and isn't usually like this and will withhold snap judgement. If I go to a restaurant and they mess up my order I'm not going to immediately swear off that restaurant forever. I'm going to give it a few more tries to see if that was a one-off thing or if it happens repeatedly.

Is it really that unreasonable? There's a bazillion restaraunts out there.  Why should I give Chez MacSkull 3,4,5,6 strikes?

It may not be fair to the restaraunt owner, or chef.  

But I guarantee you, real world, it's very often "one strike and you're out forever" in the restaraunt business.

[Lines]

I feel like the restaurant metaphor is getting thin.

 

Edit: Maybe it should eat more.

Edit 2: No other restaurant makes CoH PvPizza.

Edited September 17, 2020 by Lines

[macskull]

1 hour ago, Ghost said:

What I find amazing with this thread, is that the OP asked what it would take to get involved with PvP - some people have explained why they dont like it, and have been told they are wrong by others ?!?

How could they be wrong ?

If they dont like something, they dont like it.  You are not going to change their mind by telling them they dont know what they are talking about.

 

 

me, I dont play PvP because I dont like it.

I wont try PvP because I dont like it.

Simple.  

(Emphasis mine) This is because they are not answering the question asked, they are taking their complaints and injecting them into the discussion. If I'm asked "what would it take for you to PvP?" and I reply with "people are mean" that doesn't answer the question. "Get rid of the trash talk" would be a constructive response, but as it's already been pointed out many times in this thread, it isn't really possible to police other players in that manner and the tools to ignore the offenders already mostly exist. In this case, the tools the player wants already exist but they're choosing not to use them so it feels more like an excuse than an actual reason.

 

The last part of your response is fine - you don't PvP because you don't like it. There's nothing wrong with that and obviously you're not the type of person this thread was directed at. The thread was directed at players who would PvP but because of some barrier - either real or perceived - don't.

Edited September 17, 2020 by macskull

[ShardWarrior]

1 hour ago, barrier said:

Do these people actively PVP in any other game? Serious question.

Some of them do, yes.

[DrBasics]

1 minute ago, macskull said:

(Emphasis mine) This is because they are not answering the question asked, they are taking their complaints and injecting them into the discussion. If I'm asked "what would it take for you to PvP?" and I reply with "people are mean" that doesn't answer the question. "Get rid of the trash talk" would be a constructive response, but as it's already been pointed out many times in this thread, it isn't really possible to police other players in that manner and the tools to ignore the offenders already mostly exist. In this case, the tools the player wants already exist but they're choosing not to use them.

 

The last part of your response is fine - you don't PvP because you don't like it. There's nothing wrong with that and obviously you're not the type of person this thread was directed at. The thread was directed at players who would PvP but because of some barrier - either real or perceived - don't.

So this is the problem I see. The barrier that a lot of people have (majority in this thread) is the toxic behavior. You provide that the solution to that particular problem is "too bad, you are not the target audience because it is impossible to police the behavior of others".

 

The 5-Star award should go to @M3z for providing an introduction to PVP in a friendly environment with many youtube videos to show that it can exist, but should also include a warning that the behavior of other PVP'ers may not reflect the behavior of what is perceived there.

[macskull]

4 minutes ago, DrBasics said:

So this is the problem I see. The barrier that a lot of people have (majority in this thread) is the toxic behavior. You provide that the solution to that particular problem is "too bad, you are not the target audience because it is impossible to police the behavior of others".

Did you miss the part where I said there were already tools to deal with that behavior?

 

EDIT: Mechanics issues aside there seem to be two main complaints people have re: PvP.

1. "There's a lot of trash talk and I don't like that." See above - report particularly egregious people using the /petition tool and provide chat logs and screenshots as necessary, use the /ignore feature as necessary. Suddenly there's no chatter and you can continue on with your day in peace.
2. "I get ganked by groups of people whenever I'm trying to do XYZ thing." If you're in a PvP zone trying to do some PvE objective (pillboxes, heavies, Shivans, WB nukes, etc.) the other players in the zone are under no obligation to leave you alone just because you're PvEing. Go get some friends and come back in with a numbers advantage and your problem will probably go away.

Edited September 17, 2020 by macskull

[Bill Z Bubba]

9 minutes ago, barrier said:

Sometimes, it's also totally worth putting up with the annoying waiter to have a five-star meal.

No, it's not. If I'm paying top dollar for an experience, the whole damn thing better be exquisite. If I'm not paying top dollar, then sure, some crap can slide.

 

With CoH, I'm currently paying nothing and can easily avoid bad waiters, so I avoid them.

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Some of them do, yes.

And some of them don't. I get enough RL PvP with politics and my RL family. I don't need that shit in my escape from reality.

 

Side note, I love me some FPS games, still hate online PvP.

[DrBasics]

8 minutes ago, macskull said:

Did you miss the part where I said there were already tools to deal with that behavior?

There are tools available to deal with chat. Keep in mind, the toxic behavior people are not wanting to deal with doesn't break any rules, but it is perceived as something that people don't want to deal with.

 

If someone was on the fence about PVP then they just got spawn camped and people are saying crazy things in chat. You can stop the chat, you can't stop the spawn camping or other physical aspects of PVP trolling. I know people will say "that's just part of PVP".. and that is why the community is so small. It literally comes full circle to my very first post in this thread.

Edited September 17, 2020 by DrBasics

[macskull]

2 minutes ago, DrBasics said:

There are tools available to deal with chat. Keep in mind, the toxic behavior people are not wanting to deal with doesn't break any rules, but it is perceived as something that people don't want to deal with.

 

If someone was on the fence about PVP then they just got spawn camped and people are saying crazy things in chat. You can stop the chat, you can't stop the spawn camping or other physical aspects of PVP trolling. I know people will say "that's just part of PVP".. and that is why the community is so small. It literally comes full circle to my very first post in this thread.

So we're once again back to conveniently ignoring the efforts of the PvP community to get new/curious players introduced to the game in a way that is friendly to them. Got it.

[Yomo Kimyata]

On 9/11/2020 at 8:12 PM, RageusQuitus2 said:

Considering the stigma pvp has, how could we get some of the anti crowd to try it? 

 

My preference is zone play.  I know the arena crowd has tried super hard to get more involvement.

 

Just curious what might make someone try it.

I want to come back to the very first question. 

 

You* ask how could we get some of the anti crowd to try it.  My follow on question is why do you want some of the anti crowd to try it?  I'm trying to figure out why people *want* a bigger PvP population.  I can think of a few reasons, and I'm sure there are a lot more:

 

- you think PvP will add longevity to the game.

- you think people will change their mind and really enjoy PvP if they try it (again).

- you want a higher population doing the things that you want to do.

- you want more skilled competition from a wider number of opponents.

- you are concerned with the reputation PvPers may have and you want to dispel that misconception.

- you want to gank noobs and add to your kill count.

- other?

 

Like I said, I may come back to PvP at some point, but if I don't, I don't understand why it is any skin off anyone's nose.

 

* "You" is not referring to @RageusQuitus2or anyone in particular. 

[MTeague]

7 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

No, it's not. If I'm paying top dollar for an experience, the whole damn thing better be exquisite. If I'm not paying top dollar, then sure, some crap can slide.

 

With CoH, I'm currently paying nothing and can easily avoid bad waiters, so I avoid them.

Last restaraunt metaphor for me, I promise.

 

If it's a place I've been to many many times, and it's always been good, then sure, if one waiter is rude, I may speak to the manager about that waiter, but I'd likely still be a regular. 

If it's my first time visiting them?  Nope.  Buh-Bye, See Ya.  I probably wouldn't even tell the manager why.  I'd say, nope, let Darwin sort out the good restaurants from the bad, not my job to try to save you.

 

PvP is pretty much in that "First Impression" arena for me. 

I'm not a regular, I haven't enjoyed it in other games, so anything that makes it unpleasant has me decide "Nope, that's not how I want to allocate my limited gaming time."