Game Balance & The Endgame

[ivanhedgehog]

On 10/3/2020 at 4:46 AM, FUBARczar said:

wow, insightful and constructive. 

I'm on Excel come and show me how it's done then...  Bring you Dominator and show me how useful your pets.  Bring a Blaster and show me how sustain is inferior to Domination, I can always use vengbait.

lets see, Im frozen in place by the hold and you are still fighting. Pets properly set up can be incredible. Plants have a very good pet for example. Sustains are not anywhere near as good as mez protection.

[ivanhedgehog]

4 hours ago, FUBARczar said:

It's not just mixing in a low damage hold.  When I run shortman +4/8 MoITFs w/o inspirations I am playing like a blapper, looking for DPS for the best time.  And I have completed a 4-man +4/8 MoITF w/o inspirations with enemies buffed on my Fire/Psi  (46:36 Blaster @EV(BR/Dev) Controller @Raw(Dark/Rad) Defender @dayday(Time/Fire) Dominator @Mr.FUBAR(Fire/Psi)).  It's alsonot about perma holding, b/c even with 4 Doms on +4/8 the AVs don't stay held.  And there are lots of mobs around the AV.  Also the hold doesn't have to be low damage, because the Holds proc really well.  😜 

That isnt anywhere even close to what the game is balanced around. If you can run that. more power to ya, but the game should not be balanced around this. You have less damage than the blaster and he has less holds and no mez protection. Why would anyone bring a blaster if a dom could kill just as fast with much less risk?

[oedipus_tex]

Despite our disagreements I think most of us can agree about a few things about Dominators. I'm hoping most of this gets looked at when Control sets are reviewed. I think most of us can probably agree that although the Assault sets have been reviewed, Control sets have not, and that leaves us unable to complete the picture:

• Attack powers in Control sets should be normalized like Assault attacks were. Currently, Mind and Fire Control have a Hold that animates in 1.32 seconds, while Ice animates in 2.111 and Earth animates in 2.24. If these attacks had consistent DPA we could use them to bridge the low damage ranged attacks in the Assault sets and speak more authority about the range damage capabilities of the archetype.
• There should be consistency with how Domination operates. Synaptic Overload for example should Dominate every target. We shouldn't have sets where 9 powers Dominate and others where only the AoE hold and immobilizes do.
• The AoE Holds should be reviewed relative to the current state of the game where we currently are. 240 second recharge is very long for that what they do.  
  • Rather than lower the recharge directly, it might be more fun for there to be a condition where the power recharges instantly. 

 

I have a few more controversial opinions as well. Feel free to disagree with me here:

• Most Dominator DoTs should be replaced with one-hit attacks. DoT interferes with Sleep. If we can't do this to the single target attacks, at least do it to the AoEs.
• There should be consistency about getting a hard AoE mezz around level 12 or 18.
• Dominators should have Resistance and Defense modifiers identical to Controllers, so that their APP armor is at least as good as that archetype. They're expected to build to survive close range, and do so with some of the lowest defensive numbers out there. Part of the current challenge of building them to survive melee is the stretch of trying to cover for their low access to armors while also hitting the magic number for Recharge. 
• The archetype may need some AV-specific survival mechanism to account for losing their abilities versus this enemy type. I say "may" because this depends a little on what happen to the attacks in the Control sets.

Edited October 5, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[CaptainLupis]

42 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

• The AoE Holds should be reviewed relative to the current state of the game where we currently are. 240 second recharge is very long for that what they do.  
  • Rather than lower the recharge directly, it might be more fun for there to be a condition where the power recharges instantly.  

I've never understood the 4 minute recharge on those holds, especially as the duration is rubbish as well. I remember the first time I saw it was 4 minutes I assumed it was a typo, when I took it and realised it wasn't it got respecced out. Even now if I take them it's generally only to mule an IO set.

 

But even though I doubt they would do it, the obvious way of implementing an instant recharge would be with an ATO, like the chance to refresh build up that stalkers get from theirs. It gives all your control powers a % chance to refresh your glacially slow AoE hold.

[oedipus_tex]

1 hour ago, CaptainLupis said:

But even though I doubt they would do it, the obvious way of implementing an instant recharge would be with an ATO, like the chance to refresh build up that stalkers get from theirs. It gives all your control powers a % chance to refresh your glacially slow AoE hold.

 

I agree an ATO would be a good way to address it.

 

I think there's a good case to be made for developing a third Dominator ATO on account of Grasp of the Dominator being such a poor set. What Dominators need is an ATO they can slot in their attacks. The Dom ATOs instead has to be slotted in Control powers, which is very limiting. I could see the proc in the ATO being something like this:

• Chance to instantly recharge AoE Hold if you hit a Boss class enemy who is Held, Stunned, Confused or Terrorized

 

[Hopestar]

I think a chance of instantly recharging the power is a bit much because then you can either abuse it or still be waiting 240-recharge seconds. Reducing it to 120 or even 90 (with 1/4 the recharge being unenhanceable), I think is a better option.

[oedipus_tex]

If nothing else the Accuracy penalty should be removed from the AoE Holds. Right now the power only really becomes useful once you've IOed enough to add some global Accuracy. The original dev team was not known to be subtle with their nerfs. 🙂

 

Mass Confusion is another casualty from this era. It should have a 120 - 180ish second recharge, not 240 seconds. This power should also probably unlock earlier.

 

If I had my say on Control sets overall, I'd refashion the order of powers like so:

 

1. Single immobilize
2. Single hold
3. Aoe immobilize
4. Power 1
5. Hard Mezz Power (Stalagmites, Flashfire, Wormhole, Synaptic Overload, Seeds of Confusion, Mass Confusion, some revamped Ice power)
6. Power 2
7. Pet
8. Power 3
9. AoE Hold

 

There could be a little variation here and there for interest, but no sets waiting 26 or 32 levels to get to a good AoE mezz.

Edited October 5, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[FUBARczar]

9 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

lets see, Im frozen in place by the hold and you are still fighting. Pets properly set up can be incredible. Plants have a very good pet for example. Sustains are not anywhere near as good as mez protection.

 

8 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

That isnt anywhere even close to what the game is balanced around. If you can run that. more power to ya, but the game should not be balanced around this. You have less damage than the blaster and he has less holds and no mez protection. Why would anyone bring a blaster if a dom could kill just as fast with much less risk?

- A blaster can still fight with it's T1 powers while mezzed.

  A Blaster can run Clarion for mez protection, a Dominator needs to choose between Ageless or Rebirth. 

  A Blaster can take more hits than a Dom because of a higher base HP and it's sustain powers.

- The window at which pets are "incredible" is very narrow.  Like if the settings are -1/+0/+1, and you are fighting an isolated foe, otherwise they are like "squirrel"

- A blaster doesn't necessarily have fewer holds.  My Ice/Plant has 4, most Doms have 2.

- I am not saying that the game should be balanced around +4/8 content, but it does reveal some things.  And I am not looking for blaster level damage overall.  If you look back I only suggested a smidgen of a bump, some poetic symmetry if you will.  The idea I was striving for was to get counter-ATs aligned.  Such as Tanks to Brutes as were rebalanced at the beginning of the year.  Maybe you hate that, but now I don't feel like I am costing the team for inviting me on a Tank, or inviting a second tank to the team.  As I tank I don't feel like I am being used for my body anymore, lol.  I think Corruptors vs Defenders are on a good level.  I think that Scrappers vs Stalkers compare well.  MMs and Controllers (which I play the least) IDK so someone else needs to make that case.  

[Grouchybeast]

39 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

The idea I was striving for was to get counter-ATs aligned.  Such as Tanks to Brutes as were rebalanced at the beginning of the year.  Maybe you hate that, but now I don't feel like I am costing the team for inviting me on a Tank, or inviting a second tank to the team.  As I tank I don't feel like I am being used for my body anymore, lol.  I think Corruptors vs Defenders are on a good level.  I think that Scrappers vs Stalkers compare well.  MMs and Controllers (which I play the least) IDK so someone else needs to make that case.  

The game doesn't even list Dominators as a damage AT.  If you look at the character creator, it pairs Doms with Controllers as a Control AT, and also lists them under Support.

 

If we're saying that the Villain ATs 'should' match their Hero pairs in damage scaling, then Dom damage should line up with Controllers, right?  0.55 for melee and ranged.  Or we could be really generous and split the difference between Controllers and Blasters/Scrappers, and give Doms 0.85 for both.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Grouchybeast

[oedipus_tex]

So we're on page 61. :) I think the Dom discussion is productive. Should we move it to the Dom folder to make life easier for discussions about other end game topics? There's a related topic here about Dominators where we could continue: 

 

Edited October 5, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Naraka]

15 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Except that their OVERALL performance is that they are monsters. Not anemic.

Well, doms could be pretty anemic without Domination/mez protection and without IOs... But people aren't really talking about sans IOs... But they want changes because their IO performance isn't as good as other ATs? I'm confused. 

[Blackfeather]

15 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

I think it's worth bringing up that when Dominators were created, nukes were terrible, so not getting one as actually a plus, it meant you got a slot for a more useful power. Now however nukes are clearing mobs so fast that it makes some of the Dominator controls seem silly. Their AoE Hold has a 240 second recharge. Most nukes recharge in 145 seconds. If you're on a team with 2 Blasters, 1 Defender and 1 Corruptor there will be 4 nukes in rotation. Plus whatever Judgments are going off. No wonder it feels like controls are so much less relevant now. 🙂

Something I do find odd: why are nukes so much more accurate compared to AoE Holds? They serve basically the same purpose: clear out trash mobs.

 

And on a different tangent...I wonder how bad nukes would end up being if they had the same accuracy penalty as AoE Holds currently do. 😈

[oedipus_tex]

2 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

Something I do find odd: why are nukes so much more accurate compared to AoE Holds? They serve basically the same purpose: clear out trash mobs.

 

And on a different tangent...I wonder how bad nukes would end up being if they had the same accuracy penalty as AoE Holds currently do. 😈

 

The issue with an Accuracy penalty is that it only really penalizes un-IOed builds. Global Accuracy bonuses tends to make these powers reliable. So, giving the holds decent Accuracy would mostly just make the powers better before slotting. 

[Blackfeather]

1 minute ago, oedipus_tex said:

The issue with an Accuracy penalty is that it only really penalizes un-IOed builds. Global Accuracy bonuses tends to make these powers reliable. So, giving the holds decent Accuracy would mostly just make the powers better before slotting. 

Not actually proposing this, but more wondering why AoE Holds have an accuracy penalty and nuke powers don't:

• Takes a long time to recharge
• Designed to clear out smaller enemies
• Better pray if you end up missing

They're basically the same thing.

[Darkneblade]

17 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

Not actually proposing this, but more wondering why AoE Holds have an accuracy penalty and nuke powers don't:

• Takes a long time to recharge
• Designed to clear out smaller enemies
• Better pray if you end up missing

They're basically the same thing.

Aoe holds makes enemy statue. Previous devs hates statues. Just look at texture of statues you see why.

Just compare Atlas Statue with Echo ones you see clear difference. (Echo one is clearly superior)

(new statue is made of stones while old statue is made of metals. It was expensive maintaining statue of metal so they changed it to economic version)

Edited October 5, 2020 by Darkneblade

[oedipus_tex]

39 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

Not actually proposing this, but more wondering why AoE Holds have an accuracy penalty and nuke powers don't:

• Takes a long time to recharge
• Designed to clear out smaller enemies
• Better pray if you end up missing

They're basically the same thing.

 

The original balance point was that most nukes crashed endurance.

 

The first crashless nuke IIRC was Full Auto. Later came Rain of Arrows and Hail of Bullets. We tend to forget that crashless nukes were once one of the biggest advantages of the weapon sets.

 

The other crashless nukes also never actually left the CoX test servers. They were being user acceptance tested when the plug was pulled on the game, so on live never existed side by side with AoE Holds. 

Edited October 5, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Lockpick]

2 hours ago, Grouchybeast said:

The game doesn't even list Dominators as a damage AT.  If you look at the character creator, it pairs Doms with Controllers as a Control AT, and also lists them under Support.

 

If we're saying that the Villain ATs 'should' match their Hero pairs in damage scaling, then Dom damage should line up with Controllers, right?  0.55 for melee and ranged.  Or we could be really generous and split the difference between Controllers and Blasters/Scrappers, and give Doms 0.85 for both.

 

Thank you for pointing this out.  I was wondering why the discussion had turned to Dominators not doing as much damage as Blasters.  I was under the impression that Doms were aligned with Controllers and Corruptors were more aligned with Blasters / Defenders.  Looking in game the pairings are (just limiting to Corruptor, Dominator, Blaster, and Controller):

 

Ranged Damage

Blaster

Defender

Corruptor

 

Crowd Control

Controller

Dominator

 

Support

Controller

Defender

Corruptor

 

Pets

Controller

Dominator

 

Where did the idea come from that Dominators are one of the damage sets?  When you look at the character creator they show:

 

Dominator:

Survivability: 3

Melee Damage: 6

Ranged Damage: 6

Crowd Control: 10

Support: 2

Pets: 5

 

Blasters:

Survivability: 4

Melee Damage: 8

Ranged Damage: 10

Crowd Control: 4

Support: 2

Pets: 2

 

Seems to me that Doms were designed to be a control set, not a damage set.  All that being said, I am just showing the in game data.  I have tried playing a Dom and could never really get into it, so I can't really speak to how it plays.  Just trying to understand why there seems to be an expectation that Dominators are a damage set.

 

 

[Mezmera]

How did this become the Dominator topic?  I think doms are just about fine as is.  The revamp to a lot of the secondaries helped but a few tweaks I'm fine with and maybe revisit the non-revamped assaults.  Looks like Tex hijacked this thread over the weekend but I guess it's better seeing someone else rather than Ralathar for a change.  

 

If I were in an almighty position I'd buff the base hp up a bit, raise the melee damage modifier a little bit as well.  That's about all I'd really do.  The aoe holds recharging every mob is overkill, being able to lock down every mob would not be fun, surely not as fun as nuking every mob...

 

Doms are about right so if there's going to be nerfs to TW then I'd advocate more for blaster damage to be toned down a smidge, let them still be top dps fine but not by such a wide margin.  

Edited October 5, 2020 by Mezmera

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, Lockpick said:

Where did the idea come from that Dominators are one of the damage sets?

Because a whole lot of people misconstrued Assault sets to be equivalent to blast/melee sets.

Granted, I can see why. A controller is control/buff-debuff. A defender is buff-debuff/blast. A scrapper is melee/armor.

So a combo that is control/melee-blast could easily be seen as something that should at least be doing defender/tank level damage with their secondary.

Course, tanks just got buffed WAY above where they should be, so I'm not at all surprised for calls to buff dom damage.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[Mezmera]

15 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Because a whole lot of people misconstrued Assault sets to be equivalent to blast/melee sets.

Granted, I can see why. A controller is control/buff-debuff. A defender is buff-debuff/blast. A scrapper is melee/armor.

So a combo that is control/melee-blast could easily be seen as something that should at least be doing defender/tank level damage with their secondary.

Course, tanks just got buffed WAY above where they should be, so I'm not at all surprised for calls to buff dom damage.

Well doms are more cousins to blasters than to controllers by default of having available in their assault about all of the best attacks a blaster gets in their kit aside from the nukes.  

 

Yeah Tanks are the cheesecake characters on this game and everyone has one.  They're an easy to build unkillable bag of hp that should be keeping the team upright.  Some just wanted to damage like a Brute so they got to have their cake and eat it too.  But each time when I see a tank without their taunt like a brute I slightly die inside.  

 

If you look at the design of Hero to Villain it pretty much goes: 

Tank = Brute

Scrapper = Stalker

Defender = Corruptor

Controller = Mastermind

Blaster = Dominator

Peacebringer = Sentinel (gimped version) 😜

 

But they each have a pretty unique divergence which makes them stay special little butterflies unto themselves.  

Edited October 5, 2020 by Mezmera

[Bill Z Bubba]

11 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

Well doms are more cousins to blasters than to controllers by default of having available in their assault about all of the best attacks a blaster gets in their kit aside from the nukes.  

 

Yeah Tanks are the cheesecake characters on this game and everyone has one.  They're an easy to build unkillable bag of hp that should be keeping the team upright.  Some just wanted to damage like a Brute so they got to have their cake and eat it too.  

 

If you look at the design of Hero to Villain it pretty much goes: 

Tank = Brute

Scrapper = Stalker

Defender = Corruptor

Controller = Mastermind

Blaster = Dominator

Peacebringer = Sentinel (gimped version) 😜

While I agree completely that the EATs are just gimped Sentinels.... it was supposed to be (based on original dev statements:)

Tank = Mastermind

Scrapper = Brute

Defender = Corruptor

Controller = Dominator

Blaster = Stalker

 

Granted, they were out of their minds.

 

But no.. Blasters do not equate to dominators. Doms have a damage SECONDARY just like tanks and defenders. They should not be pushing damage like any AT that has damage as a primary.

 

Big late edit: You're gorram right tanks got overbuffed. WAY overbuffed.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[Blackfeather]

1 minute ago, Mezmera said:

Well doms are more cousins to blasters than to controllers by default of having available in their assault about all of the best attacks a blaster gets in their kit aside from the nukes.  

 

Yeah Tanks are the cheesecake characters on this game and everyone has one.  They're an easy to build unkillable bag of hp that should be keeping the team upright.  Some just wanted to damage like a Brute so they got to have their cake and eat it too.  

 

If you look at the design of Hero to Villain it pretty much goes: 

Tank = Brute

Scrapper = Stalker

Defender = Corruptor

Controller = Mastermind

Blaster = Dominator

Peacebringer = Sentinel (gimped version) 😜

I'm pretty sure the intent was more something like:

• Tanker <take hits : get others to take hits> Mastermind
• Scrapper <filling similar niches, but more aggressively> Brute
• Blaster <all over the place damage : focused, tactical damage> Stalker
• Controller <lock down group, support : lock down group, attack> Dominator
• Defender <support, deal damage : deal damage, support> Corruptor

Of course, in practice, I'm not so sure it worked out that way. But at least theme wise, I can see it.

[Mezmera]

So an Illusion/Kinetics controller is different to a Thug/Kinetics Mastermind how?  In no way does a Mastermind control the aggro like a Tank with a taunt does.  They passively control some aggro and buff the group just like a controller does.  

 

Tanks and Brutes are almost identical in their builds with Brutes capping stuff slightly lower than a tank.  Harder to cap a Brute than a Tank but Brutes far exceed Tanks in damage so people used them as the comparison for their advocating for the damage increase.  

 

There's no way you can equate a Stalker with a whole defensive set to a Blaster.  Stalkers are the better ST damage dealers to the Scrappers, like everything else is the same between the two aside from AS and Hide.  

 

Defenders equaling Corruptors everyone gets.  

 

That leaves Dominators and Blasters at the dance party with no partner who are like F it lets partner up see how it goes.   

[Blackfeather]

1 minute ago, Mezmera said:

So an Illusion/Kinetics controller is different to a Thug/Kinetics Mastermind how?  In no way does a Mastermind control the aggro like a Tank with a taunt does.  They passively control some aggro and buff the group just like a controller does.  

 

Tanks and Brutes are almost identical in their builds with Brutes capping stuff slightly lower than a tank.  Harder to cap a Brute than a Tank but Brutes far exceed Tanks in damage so people used them as the comparison for their advocating for the damage increase.  

 

There's no way you can equate a Stalker with a whole defensive set to a Blaster.  Stalkers are the better ST damage dealers to the Scrappers, like everything else is the same between the two aside from AS and Hide.  

 

Defenders equaling Corruptors everyone gets.  

 

That leaves Dominators and Blasters at the dance party with no partner who are like F it lets partner up see how it goes.   

As said previously, in practice, it doesn't quite work out that way, but the thematic intent behind the archetypes is pretty clear when seen from a broader perspective. Designed in one way, used another: it happens.

 

Masterminds were originally envisioned as the type of character that stayed back and lets their minions do the dirty work for them - no leaping into the fray for them; what are they, Tankers, willing to get hurt for the sake of others?

 

Brutes are basically Scrappers up to eleven - charge into a fight, and even better, get angrier/stronger as time goes on for doing that.

 

I see Stalkers as inverse Blasters: instead of taking down the small fry first and then attacking the tougher targets, you delete the tougher targets first, and then clean up. Stealth and finesse as compared to explosive power.

 

Controllers not only lock down the battlefield, but help their team members in the process - a Dominator has no need for that, and thus supplements their controls with some offence.

 

And of course, Defenders/Corruptors are fairly clear cut.

[Mezmera]

13 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

As said previously, in practice, it doesn't quite work out that way, but the thematic intent behind the archetypes is pretty clear when seen from a broader perspective. Designed in one way, used another: it happens.

 

Masterminds were originally envisioned as the type of character that stayed back and lets their minions do the dirty work for them - no leaping into the fray for them; what are they, Tankers, willing to get hurt for the sake of others?

 

Brutes are basically Scrappers up to eleven - charge into a fight, and even better, get angrier/stronger as time goes on for doing that.

 

I see Stalkers as inverse Blasters: instead of taking down the small fry first and then attacking the tougher targets, you delete the tougher targets first, and then clean up. Stealth and finesse as compared to explosive power.

 

Controllers not only lock down the battlefield, but help their team members in the process - a Dominator has no need for that, and thus supplements their controls with some offence.

 

And of course, Defenders/Corruptors are fairly clear cut.

You should reread what I said.  How can these conclusions be made when Stalkers/Scrappers are near identical, so just to be different we're gonna call them blasters when they share not one thing in their builds but for maybe Total Focus...?

 

Brutes and Tanks are near identical too and always have been, especially more so now with the damage upgrade to Tanks.  

 

That leaves Masterminds who have a buff/debuff secondary (kind of like a controller) and Dominators who share a lot of assaults with Blasters where in place of nukes you get hard aoe control.  The nuke is pretty much insta-kill all and a perma-dom with the aoe hold is insta-hold all.  Controllers don't control the battlefield like a Dominator, they're more Mastermind-ish in nature.  Doms control through hard lockdown, Blasters control through hard kills.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Mezmera