Mastermind and fighting

[Bananaghost]

Hello.

First time poster here. Installed the game a few weeks ago and having alot of fun making alot of characters an alot less progress. 😄

Made probably like 10 MM's with different powersets and leveling them to around lvl 10. Been spending as much time making costumes as playing them.

 

One I've especially come to like is my Beast/Kinetics with Boxning and Kick from fighting, cos I want to be in the frontlines with my beasts, not hang back.

(Had a Beast/Nature one, but didn't really like the animations on Nature skills.. too flowery.)

 

Problem is, it just feels weak, especially after I made a blaster.. Things just died alot quicker. And he didn't feel any squishier honestly.

 

I realize things will likely change a bit as I level, but My question is this: Is melee a lost cause with those particular powersets or can I make it work?

 

I do have a Robotics/Force Field one I like thematically aswell. Which will be a better leveling experience, you think?

 

Edit: I'm talking leveling up to max level, probably won't engage in many endgame activities.. Never have in any MMO..

Edited September 28, 2020 by Bananaghost

[ZorkNemesis]

So it's important to note that the Mastermind's own damage is bad.  Real bad.  MM's have the lowest base damage modifiers overall so you won't hit anywhere near as hard as any other AT with your own attacks.  Especially if you're coming from a Blaster who is designed to focus offense, giving them some of the highest numbers.   They will get stronger if you slot them, and they also get more damage by taking the other attacks in Fighting (15% increase if you have two of Boxing, Kick, or Cross Punch, and 30% with all three) but you will not deal as much damage as your pets or any other AT simply due to MM's own base stats.

 

Now that's not to say don't try it.  CoH is very flexible and nearly anything can work with effort but just remember that if you were to try that with any other AT, the damage would likely be better.  MMs aren't meant to fight, they're meant to give commands so that their minions do the fighting instead.

 

Edited September 28, 2020 by ZorkNemesis

[Force Redux]

Glad you're enjoying the game, and welcome to Paragon, hero!

 

MMs funny really come into they're own until starting in the mid 20s. They really blossom with slotting and also the final upgrade at 32.

 

I personally would not go with Fighting Pool for attacks. But the nice thing about CoH is that almost anything will work at varying levels of effectiveness. Since you're not worried about end game, you don't have to be optimal. But it should be fun.

 

I would strongly recommend the Beast attacks, Call Hawk and Call Ravens in particular. They will do more for you than Punch or Kick.

 

If you want another set with fun attacks to use, try Demons. The whips animate well and are useful.

[Bananaghost]

Hah! Had a demon/something to 10 ish too. Whips we're cool and all, but didn't feel the demons.

My main worry is that I'll be reassigned a healer for the pets, while they do all the fighting. That, I'm fairly certain I won't like.. The beast attacks also contributed to the feeling of not actually doing anything, as they revolved around ordering yet more beasts to fight, instead of doing it yourself.. 🤔

Well thanks for the replies. We'll see where I go from here. Might level the Robot/Force One some more. That laser rifle, while not melee, looks pretty cool. And the bots looks are growing on me.

Maybe some day Che Guevandroid will make it out of praetoria.. 😆

Edited September 28, 2020 by Bananaghost

[zenijos10]

1 hour ago, Bananaghost said:

Hah! Had a demon/something to 10 ish too. Whips we're cool and all, but didn't feel the demons.

My main worry is that I'll be reassigned a healer for the pets, while they do all the fighting. That, I'm fairly certain I won't like.. The beast attacks also contributed to the feeling of not actually doing anything, as they revolved around ordering yet more beasts to fight, instead of doing it yourself.. 🤔

Well thanks for the replies. We'll see where I go from here. Might level the Robot/Force One some more. That laser rifle, while not melee, looks pretty cool. And the bots looks are growing on me.

Maybe some day Che Guevandroid will make it out of praetoria.. 😆

Are you using sandalphons key binds?  Taking a hands on approach directing your pets on a per enemy basis might give you the feeling of doing something.  Usually that means I forgoe defensive mode at least on some of my pets and basically treat my pets like they are attacks not distinct entities.  

 

I think this way makes it easier to see the direct effect your having on enemies.  Also, it compensates for the wacky pet ai and benefits from the recent pet ai upgrades.

Edited September 28, 2020 by zenijos10

[pblue]

For more details about how good/bad the Pool Power attacks truly are see:
https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/2223-the-problem-with-pool-powers/?tab=comments#comment-17116

 

The conclusions from that thread is that Pool Power attacks generally aren't very good, but as Mastermind primary attacks aren't very good either, it's all relative.

 

I'm no expert but if I were really keen for a fighting Mastermind I might for for Force Fields with a melee based pets like Nercomancy.

 

Force Fields give you decent defence which you will want if you are plan to get up close. If you only take the shields you should have power slots, Endurance and free time to engage in melee. Personal Force Field to save your skin when you get too much aggro.  Meanwhile the zombies are well protected in their bubble and can self-heal, making them pretty self-sufficient. The Lich even provides a good amount of control. And if you get Life Drain you also have a means to heal yourself.

 

In practice I suspect trying to get yourself into the right position to engage in melee while keeping an eye on six or seven pets isn't always going to feel particularly smooth or effective in play but, it's a game right?

 

If on the other hand you just want to feel you are doing as much damage as your minions, I'd go with Storm.

[KC4800]

I have a beast/nature that I fight right along with in melee. I know the beasts do all the damage but its all in the feelz. I even took 3 PP attacks to make a melee chain I could live with. 

 

My Bots/ EA is just set them to attack and then buff and heal them.  My pew-pew gun is tres weak. But I add splash damage to stop a few stragglers from running too far.

 

I just started a Merc/Poison that I'll probably delete as it is just too much like Bots/EA. No reason, really to continue.

[plainguy]

Unfortunately the original developers pretty much made it where the player is just controlling the pets to fight and not too much of anything else. 

Can you mix in attacks ?

Yes but for Mastermind endurance is an issue. Having pet wipes is an issue. Having yet another immediate pet wipe after the first is also an issue. 

End result you do too many attacks and your endurance is low you might be limited in how many pets you can summon on a pet wipe.  
You might not understand ATM what I am trying to describe but you will once you have all your pets.. 

 

Someone posted this a while ago, I wish I could give them credit. In summary they said either Masterminds can do some really amazing things or they fail miserably. 

 

Though you can't really do a super bad build, I personally think Masterminds have the least amount of wiggle room when it comes to builds.

 

 

 

[ranagrande]

Temporary attack powers are the way to go.  Temp powers don't take archetype into account, so they are stronger on masterminds than anyone else, relatively speaking.

[Force Redux]

1 hour ago, ranagrande said:

Temporary attack powers are the way to go.  Temp powers don't take archetype into account, so they are stronger on masterminds than anyone else, relatively speaking.

Just need to account for Accuracy. Tactics, Kismet IO and buff/debuff powers are helpful there. But I agree, Blackwand serves my magical MMs very well. 

[GM Kal]

With any low base damage AT, what you want to do is slot up your attacks with procs. Lots of them.
I'm working on a natural Thugs/Traps MM with slotted boxing, crosspunch, knockout blow, and Corrosive vial all procced out. I'll report back on results.

[Force Redux]

FWIW I actually slot my Corruption (or other ranged attack) with Thunderstrike; for the Ranged Defense as well as Accuracy. Not the only way to do it, but I find I do more damage if I get that Defense up to or as close to cap as possible. Again, for those who want more damage, the procs are the way to go, as others suggest. Depends on your build goals. 

[brasilgringo]

On 10/3/2020 at 7:54 PM, GM Kal said:

With any low base damage AT, what you want to do is slot up your attacks with procs. Lots of them.
I'm working on a natural Thugs/Traps MM with slotted boxing, crosspunch, knockout blow, and Corrosive vial all procced out. I'll report back on results.

Did you get to test Corrosive Vial proc'd out? 

 

I read in  some other threads here that it is bugged and really has a much smaller radius than the 10' that MIDS says.   Curious if you were able to test it and what different procs make sense (e.g. -RES, damage, OF chance for KD, etc.).

 

[Talionis]

I actually think you are fine with Kinetic/Beasts. It’s a strong combination.  You’ll want to be close with the combination so Boxing or Kick can work fine to attack between using your powers.  Just don’t forget to use your Kinetic powers.  Also some harder targets you may want to stay back.  Fighting pool has worthwhile defensive abilities a Kinetic will want.  Another trick is not to load up on melee attack powers. Most of the pool powers recharge quickly so use your support powers between punches. Last when you get higher levels you may find some of the ancillary pools have melee attacks. They do better damage. Once you get Transferance you should not have endurance issues. Most Masterminds have endurance issues but Kinetics can get around that issue.  You’ll never be a Brute, punching with most of your actions, but if you don’t go crazy Beast/Kinetics can play very similarly to what you are requesting. 

[Force Redux]

2 hours ago, Talionis said:

I actually think you are fine with Kinetic/Beasts. It’s a strong combination.  You’ll want to be close with the combination so Boxing or Kick can work fine to attack between using your powers.  Just don’t forget to use your Kinetic powers.  Also some harder targets you may want to stay back.  Fighting pool has worthwhile defensive abilities a Kinetic will want.  Another trick is not to load up on melee attack powers. Most of the pool powers recharge quickly so use your support powers between punches. Last when you get higher levels you may find some of the ancillary pools have melee attacks. They do better damage. Once you get Transferance you should not have endurance issues. Most Masterminds have endurance issues but Kinetics can get around that issue.  You’ll never be a Brute, punching with most of your actions, but if you don’t go crazy Beast/Kinetics can play very similarly to what you are requesting. 

Agree 100%, Beasts are the most self-contained Primary of all the MM power sets, with good Defense, decent resists, self-heals and the ability to self-buff (and with Pet IOs) and cap defense or go crazy and add extra damage/crits passively. They will go VERY ast on /Kin so make sure to use GoTo comamnds to keep them in the local area, instead of zipping across the map. The new AI changes earlier in the year were a godsend. 

[TygerDarkstorm]

Welcome to the game! As a new player, Masterminds can take a bit of getting used to. MM's are hit with certain penalties compared to other AT's because our primaries *are* our pets. Thus, we take a bigger hit to our endurance and our personal attacks don't always add a lot to our arsenal until you learn how to proc them out and manage your endurance use.

 

Now, I am by no means an expert. I do lots of reading and research and MM's are probably my most played AT because I love them so much. If you are looking to be a MM that is more involved with their pets, then I can't really recommend /force field as a secondary--it's typically considered the lazy MM secondary for a reason;  you bubble your pets and sit back and watch the battle unfold. Great for people looking for that more slow paced playstyle, but since you're wanting to actively participate in fights with your pets, I'm not sure it's the right path.

 

For something to try, this is Redlynne's Ninja/Time MM that takes and uses the personal MM attacks: 

 

Your combo of Beast/Kin mentioned in the OP is actually a pretty solid pairing. Mine is now... level 40 I think. I haven't soloed with her in a while, but I just recently ran her on an MSR, which was fun once I got the feel of her again. Point being, /kin is a very active set, and if you're grouped with anyone who can give you +recharge buffs (or bring your own via Hasten), then you really shouldn't feel like you're missing out being in the battle with your pets (and /kin is still pretty busy even without extra recharge added). And for beast, you want to use at least one of the personal attacks to help your pets build up stacks of the buff that cause your pets to crit and deal more damage.

 

Your pets ARE your weapons--where a blaster has Fire Blast or something, we have our pets. Wield them; that's how you contribute to the damage part of a fight. Do not constantly resummon if just one or two goes down; it's a huge waste of end and time, especially if it's the tier 1 pets. Make use of the numpad binds here: 

Idk what I would do if I didn't have and use these suckers. I'm semi-lazy, so I tend to command all my pets to do stuff at once, but this will also allow for more precise control when and where it's needed. Don't be afraid to come out of defensive stance if you're on a team. Bodyguard mode isn't always real effective if you're teaming (if you're not taking any damage, then your pets won't move in on their own to engage). If you're careful about placement, many pets can be placed to aggressive, though with the speedy ninjas and beasts, you need to keep a tight leash on that and the passive button. When there's troublesome mobs in a group, I often target that mob and send my pets to attack my target (i.e. Malta Sappers, Ruin Mages, etc.).

 

Also keep in mind, MM's are technically a support AT. Our damage, even with the pets, will never rival a blaster, scrapper, etc. Plus, we're at a distinct disadvantage once you get to a post level 50 world; once you start playing at level shifted modes, your tier 1 pets are now fighting enemies +5/6 to themselves, turning their damage and defenses a bit anemic. Not that an MM can't be built to handle that content or whatever, it's just a good thing to keep in mind. I'm not a huge fan of idle play either, so I tend to pick MM secondaries that are what people call "busy"--Electric Affinity, Kinetics, Trick Arrow, and to a lesser extent, Time, Nature, and Dark. Not that other secondaries aren't good. /Thermal has some pretty great debuffs (as does /Cold), but it can feel a bit boring at times compared to something like /Kin that wants to have its in-combat abilities pretty used on CD.

[Neiska]

Welcome to the Mastermind support group!

 

A few things I would like to add that for me are a class bonus.

1. Variety of playstyles - I would argue that moreso than any other AT, you can do quite a bit with a single Mastermind. You can make one melee focused, ranged, a heavy buffer/supporter, or a heavy debuffer, or even a "tankermind". Some pets are ranged only, and in which case you can do a lot of neat tricks. For example, I have a robot/EA MM who can afk solo AE farming maps on max difficulty. How? Its fairly simple. I took group fly, and all my robots are ranged fighters. The map I select is one with enemies with no -fly or ranged attacks to speak of. So I just hover in the air and let my robots do all the work, while i have my one absorb power on autocast. You can also use things like web grenade or electric fences to trap things and simply "outshoot" them, or you can make a melee heavy build who runs in with the rest of them. You can even make an MM that can do all of these in a single build if you plan ahead.

 

Just bare in mind that your main/secondary power pairing can greatly affect how you play, possibly moreso than other AT's.

 

2. Durability - For me personally what the class lacks in offence more than makes up defensively. I would rate some MM setps far more durable than Tanker builds. You can have softcap defenses, resistances, absorbs, heals, bodyguard mode, -damage/hit debuffs and more, all in one package. You can even squeze in things like status immunity and -regen for some setups, which makes for an absurdly durable character. I have a few tanks, and I think overall, my MMs are tougher. Not in terms of raw MIDs numbers, but in terms of overall ingame effectiveness. Sure, a tanker may have more resists, but do they have infinate end, self heals, damage sharing with bodyguard mode, and so on?

 

3. Soloing - I would also rate MMs as the king of solo play. Some builds can solo GMs/AVs, missions, ITFs and more. Many other ATs can do any of these, but few can do "all" of them in a single package.

 

4. Fun factor - this is really up for personal preferance. Some people love the Mastermind feel/style, some dont.

 

Personally the only downside about MMs for me is low raw damage. But I can live with that, as all their other things more than make up for it.

 

Happy Masterminding!