Kheldian love: Ease up on the Nova form travel suppression

[ninja surprise]

Nova / Dark Nova seems to be overly penalized by travel power suppression - it cannot move/fly at all for quite a while after attacking.

Hover-Blasters can at least move around between attacks, and Melee toons can Combat Jump all over the place during battle.

 

But the poor old Nova is stuck in place, wiggling those tentacles for all they're worth trying to build up some momentum to get moving.

 

Can it get a little speed boost?

My pipe dream would be that it gets Afterburner level of flight control, but my real hope is it gets buffed to at least Hover speed while blasting and that the suppression wears off much quicker.

 

kthxbye

[Kaika]

Honestly I wouldn't mind seeing travel suppression as a whole tossed out, never understood why it's still around. Hell its already removed from PvP.

Edited October 8, 2020 by Riot Siren

[Coyotedancer]

What Riot said. 

 

Movement speed suppression in PvE needs to go the way of the dodo bird. <_<

[Kaika]

If I recall, Travel suppression was added to stop players from "Jousting" enemies, basically just always being out of range. CoH is a much faster paced game these days then when it was added, and while jousting can be a useful tactic in some situations, assuming its still strong enough to limit travel power globally to stop it, is extremely silly. It really needs to go.

Edited October 8, 2020 by Riot Siren

[Outrider_01]

10 hours ago, ninja surprise said:

Hover-Blasters can at least move around between attacks, and Melee toons can Combat Jump all over the place during battle.

Hover and Combat Jump are not travel powers, they just have watered down effects.  Nova form is flight, it follows suppression rules and could not be exclusion over normal flight.  Even Ninja run suppresses as well excludes CJ/SJ.

 

As for removal of suppression no comment.  Only commenting over Nova getting special treatment.  If suppression is removed ok, just not an exclusive over normal travel power.

[nihilii]

52 minutes ago, Riot Siren said:

If I recall, Travel suppression was added to stop players from "Jousting" enemies, basically just always being out of range.

It always seemed like a shaky explanation to me.

 

Apparently, jousting was never a problem for the full year or so until the Arena was introduced. Then, it suddenly became one.

 

In PvE, jousting is inherently counterproductive: the cornerstone of PvE is the reward:time ratio, and you maximise that ratio by having enemies tightly packed together and attacking as much as you can. Jousting trades attacking speed for defense, and scatters enemies.

 

On the other hand, in PvP jousting was always the clear strategy from Day 1. More casual players quickly complained their purely melee scrappers and tankers couldn't compete. Everyone would bring Superspeed and Superjump, and even Whirlwind to bypass animation rooting.

 

What I think is a more realistic take on what happened: PvP was the newly introduced baby, one the devs were likely hoping would be as big as PvE and one the devs were already banking even further on as CoV was in development. But most of the playerbase was quickly turned off by a much more fast-paced competition than they expected from their relaxed wish fulfillement video game. Devs scrambled to fix what they felt was the most glaring issue. Because of time crunch, they nerfed travel for the whole game rather than create complicated, dedicated rules for PvP. And to avoid further bad press turning a playerbase even more reluctant to try out PvP, they pinned the nerf on supposed PvE exploits.

 

We will never know for sure. I certainly struggle to take old dev words as gospel when they go so blatantly against logic - and this was during Jack's tenure, too.

[Greycat]

2 hours ago, nihilii said:

In PvE, jousting is inherently counterproductive: the cornerstone of PvE is the reward:time ratio, and you maximise that ratio by having enemies tightly packed together and attacking as much as you can. Jousting trades attacking speed for defense, and scatters enemies.

Depends. If you're dealing with an AOE-able mob? Sure. But something like, say, Protean, who (a) I'm dealing with 1v1 and (b) has a melee-range attack/effect (his self heal) I want to avoid? Gimme an ostrich, I'm playing Joust. I regularly have him not able to heal or land a hit on me.

[nihilii]

It's true you can find a variety of edge cases where it makes sense to trade speed=reward for safety, because else you'd die and get 0 reward. But those are edge cases, irrelevant in a statistical manner, within the context of choosing whether to implement a global nerf. So they never could hold much water as justification for PvE travel suppression, to me.

 

Especially as, at the time, game mechanics weren't as creative. Mobs had mostly standard powers. The highest reputation we could reach was +2/x1 ("Invincible"). So either you'd face, say, a +2 Tank Freakshow, or some kind of archvillain; and in the latter situation, jousting also tends to hurt your chances, because archvillain regen makes it critical to deal a certain amount of damage to win at all; and in the pre-IO, pre-incarnate world, where we also knew much less about the game, maintaining those levels of DPS weren't a given.

Arguably, even today, jousting against (say) Protean isn't actually efficient. Building for softcap defense, popping lucks, or using all kinds of other "traditional" strategies where you can stand still and pummel the guy for the full power of your attack chain will prove more efficient. Jousting is an universal trick but not a gamebreaking one, it can be used as a bandaid to patch situations that would be difficult for a given build, but it won't allow you to obtain rewards at a greater pace than the best builds.

 

Much like you can snipe mobs of a +4/x8 group too tough for you to handle from the air in full safety, but despite facing 0 risk it's not really gamebreaking when another character will be built to wade right in the middle of that +4/x8 group and defeat it at a much faster speed. Empirically, we can see from the prevalence of fire farmers versus the prevalence of hover snipers which route people go for, too.

Edited October 8, 2020 by nihilii

[SeraphimKensai]

I've never liked travel form suppression and would happily do an Irish jig over it's grave if we removed it.

 

Mind you I used to be a hardcore PvPer years ago, but I also like the idea of a superspeeder getting to fight at superspeed (think the flash, as he wouldn't be that powerful if any time he attacked he had to stop running).

[Coyotedancer]

I just hate it because of how many damned "runners" we have in this game... Longbow Eagles, Skyraiders, Witches. You know the ones. 'Jet off to the far end of nowhere at full speed the second you target them, while you're stuck moving at the speed of a sleepy garden snail? Yeah. That crap. 

 

If we're going to insist on having mobs that run for the hills, at least let us chase their cowardly butts. <_<

[ninja surprise]

18 hours ago, Outrider_01 said:

Hover and Combat Jump are not travel powers, they just have watered down effects.  

 

They are buff-ups from base travel, boosting mobility, speed, and height. And a Nova can't Hover or CJ, it has one method of movement that gets stuck in the mud when you attack. 

18 hours ago, Outrider_01 said:

Nova form is flight, it follows suppression rules and could not be exclusion over normal flight.  Even Ninja run suppresses as well excludes CJ/SJ.

Nova's flight is more than that, it's an inherent movement, like Sprint is to humans.  Ninja and Beast run are add-on powers.

It doesn't make sense that an organism's sole and natural method of movement gets disabled because it used one of it's other natural powers.

 

Whole lot of people in this thread unhappy with movement suppression. I don't run any travel powers in combat because I hate getting stuck in the mud and then suddenly released, slingshotting around a room or cave.  Just Sprint and CJ on all the time.

 

But a Nova doesn't have that option. All it gets to do is hold still and blast.

[ninja surprise]

Just did a Tin Mage with my Warshade - Nova totally sucks for the Battle Maiden mission. Can't move quick enough to get out of purple patches.

[Outrider_01]

5 hours ago, ninja surprise said:

They are buff-ups from base travel, boosting mobility, speed, and height. And a Nova can't Hover or CJ, it has one method of movement that gets stuck in the mud when you attack. 

You mean buff up from Sprint + Swift + Hurdle?  Cause I am looking it down from the travel power itself.

 

5 hours ago, ninja surprise said:

Nova's flight is more than that, it's an inherent movement, like Sprint is to humans.  Ninja and Beast run are add-on powers.

It doesn't make sense that an organism's sole and natural method of movement gets disabled because it used one of it's other natural powers.

I said Ninja and Beast are travel powers, an add on as much as Super Jump boosts your character from sprint.  

 Ninja and Beast - Watered down travel powers

• Stack with Sprint
• Do not stack with
  • Combat Jump
  • Super Jump
  • Super Speed
• Stack with 
  • Flight
  • Hover
  • Teleport
  • Completely different travel mechanic

Ninja and Beast are exclusive to ground travel, as they are optional powers with the same ability as SJ and SS.

 

Nova forms comparable to a Hover Blaster, you can't have travel power with flight speed and not suppress.  Lets meet in the middle, a very fast hover that doesn't suppress but not flight speed.  Keeps the Nova out of melee range, doesn't need an additional power pool pick like other ATs, and doesn't suppress but doesn't need slots like Hover to speed up.

[tidge]

I support the elimination of travel suppression in PvE across-the-board, and I agree that for Khelds this is a serious annoyance.

 

I've grown accustomed to the suppression, but every time one of my characters is fighting in a map room with multiple levels and I suddenly have my movement between levels (Flight, Ninja Run jumps) suppressed it is disorienting.

 

I am aware that I can make other power choices (with different investment in slots) for most ATs, but all Kheldian forms don't have that option.

[Furiant]

100% support the elimination of the suppression mechanic. This was the first of a chain of decisions that led to me and several friends quitting the game back in Live. 

 

It's one of those things that could have been avoided if someone had put it through the Patch Notes test.

 

Mechanics Changes

1. The game is now more fun because: [Description of Change 1]

2. The game is now more fun because: [Description of Change 2]

3. The game is now more fun because: When you enter combat status for any reason all your travel powers get inexplicably worse.

...

 

If you read the list out loud and it sounds stupid, it probably is.

 

Edited October 9, 2020 by Furiant

[chi1701]

13 hours ago, Outrider_01 said:

You mean buff up from Sprint + Swift + Hurdle?  Cause I am looking it down from the travel power itself.

 

I said Ninja and Beast are travel powers, an add on as much as Super Jump boosts your character from sprint.  

 Ninja and Beast - Watered down travel powers

• Stack with Sprint
• Do not stack with
  • Combat Jump
  • Super Jump
  • Super Speed
• Stack with 
  • Flight
  • Hover
  • Teleport
  • Completely different travel mechanic

Ninja and Beast are exclusive to ground travel, as they are optional powers with the same ability as SJ and SS.

 

Nova forms comparable to a Hover Blaster, you can't have travel power with flight speed and not suppress.  Lets meet in the middle, a very fast hover that doesn't suppress but not flight speed.  Keeps the Nova out of melee range, doesn't need an additional power pool pick like other ATs, and doesn't suppress but doesn't need slots like Hover to speed up.

 

Nova is not comparable to a hover blaster, hover and flight are optional, the flight mechanic in nova isnt. Also, hover/fly does not restrict other abilities and toggles.

[kelika2]

You made me log in and check because the OP title scared the crap out of me.

 

And I am not seeing any suppression, if anything they added some Flight Control and I am drifting less and accelerating/decelerating much faster in Nova form

[SwitchFade]

Wait, what?ñ

 

Nova is exempt from travel suppression, always has been. All other flyers have several seconds of suppression, nova fires and has immediate speed, did this change?

 

Squiddy was always exempt from suppression. Now, if you mean certain aoe powers have a longer animation rooting you, known issue.

[Outrider_01]

6 hours ago, chi1701 said:

 

Nova is not comparable to a hover blaster, hover and flight are optional, the flight mechanic in nova isnt. Also, hover/fly does not restrict other abilities and toggles.

You are raised above the enemy 

 

You are raining down hell fire 

 

You don't need to waste a power pick like the blaster.

 

In nova form restricts certain abilities.  Oustide Nova form restrict the Nova abilities.

[Greycat]

23 minutes ago, Outrider_01 said:

In nova form restricts certain abilities.  Oustide Nova form restrict the Nova abilities.

... for some reason I can't parse what this sentence pair means. I sort of get the first (Nova's restricted to Nova abilities, plus IIRC what you pick as the eye attack, if you take it,) the second... they already are since you have to use the human form abilities?

[SwitchFade]

On 10/7/2020 at 12:16 PM, ninja surprise said:

Nova / Dark Nova seems to be overly penalized by travel power suppression - it cannot move/fly at all for quite a while after attacking.

Hover-Blasters can at least move around between attacks, and Melee toons can Combat Jump all over the place during battle.

 

But the poor old Nova is stuck in place, wiggling those tentacles for all they're worth trying to build up some momentum to get moving.

 

Can it get a little speed boost?

My pipe dream would be that it gets Afterburner level of flight control, but my real hope is it gets buffed to at least Hover speed while blasting and that the suppression wears off much quicker.

 

kthxbye

Ok, so answering my own previous query and quoting OP...

 

Kheldian nova form are exempt from travel suppression, as they always have been, confirmed tested in game, just now. What you likely are experiencing is the known issue with dark nova detonation animation, there's an extra .8 seconds that you remain locked in place, this is a known issue where the animation needs to be revised.

 

All the other powers, fire, right after animation you're at full speed ramp, where all other travel powers are throttled to sprint speed for 3ish seconds and then abruptly hit speed.

 

Nova form, due to how the shape change works, is exempt from this, as it always has been.

 

Nothing to see here, people.

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, SwitchFade said:

Nova is exempt from travel suppression, always has been. All other flyers have several seconds of suppression, nova fires and has immediate speed, did this change?

 

Squiddy was always exempt from suppression. Now, if you mean certain aoe powers have a longer animation rooting you, known issue.

Also this. Double checked. There's no suppression, per se. You stop, animate your firing animation (which is not that long,) and keep going. That is not suppression.

 

Superspeed still does - there's a noticable few seconds of slowdown (superspeed and aim at someone, attack, and it's decidedly there.)

Superjump does.

Fly and Sorcery do.

 

If you're not sure if you're being suppressed? Open up your combat attributes window - movement. If you're being suppressed, your Fly speed will be cut in half for a few seconds. Doesn't happen in Nova.

[ninja surprise]

5 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

All the other powers, fire, right after animation you're at full speed ramp, where all other travel powers are throttled to sprint speed for 3ish seconds and then abruptly hit speed.

It sure feels slow to get going after any blast. I'm going to have to open the movement speed window to try and placebo myself out of feeling slow.

 

Edit: This is my first suggestion that's ever made it live so I'm taking this as a big win.

Edited October 10, 2020 by ninja surprise

[Outrider_01]

2 hours ago, Greycat said:

... for some reason I can't parse what this sentence pair means. I sort of get the first (Nova's restricted to Nova abilities, plus IIRC what you pick as the eye attack, if you take it,) the second... they already are since you have to use the human form abilities?

Pretty much what you said.  Regardless of power, primary, secondary, or AT something is going to be restricted just certain situations like SJ/CJ.  Bigger picture as I see it.

[chi1701]

13 hours ago, Outrider_01 said:

You are raised above the enemy 

 

You are raining down hell fire 

 

You don't need to waste a power pick like the blaster.

 

In nova form restricts certain abilities.  Oustide Nova form restrict the Nova abilities.

Raised above enemy until you want to refresh hasten, activate damage buff, self heal, self buff, use temp powers, team buffs (active/non active).

 

Raining down hell fire, nova isnt as blaster, hell fire is more like singeing.

 

In nova, form restricts practically all powers. Easier to say which powers you can use compared to which you cant.