Focused Feedback: Trick Arrow Revamp

[Wavicle]

But yea, that's a fair comment about the mechanism being weird. So forget that.

 

 

 

What if Acid Arrow provided a moderate -Max HP Debuff???

Edited November 13, 2020 by Wavicle

[Wavicle]

In a similar way to how Disruption has a small -Max End, what if Acid had a small, perhaps non-stacking and ignores buffs and enhancements, -Max HP?

Edited November 13, 2020 by Wavicle

[Luminara]

16 minutes ago, Monos King said:

You want acid arrow. It'll improve the -to hit of your Flash Arrow which you really need if you are rolling Ninjas with their paper frail protections.

 

Acid only applies 36% of the Special debuff to lieutenants and 32% to bosses, so you'd increase Flash's -ToHit from ~17.55% to ~23.87% on lieutenants and ~23.17% on bosses.  That's presuming +0 foes.  If you're fighting +3 foes, you're looking at something more in the range of going from ~11.41% to ~14.08% on lieutenants and ~13.78% on bosses.

 

Basically, ~2-6% extra -ToHit, level differential dependent.  Weigh that against the potential to keep every minion in your PGA awake with Acid's DoT.  With a slightly improved debuff on minions (minions have a 300% -ToHit resist floor, as opposed to lieutenants (10%) and bosses (20%)), the higher the difficulty setting the lower it's going to be (purple patch) and the larger the spawns, the more attacks made and the more hitting you and your henches.

 

Acid's going into my secondary build on all of my characters, including my masterminds, for teaming or AV/GM combat.  For soloing, the DoT and lack of any broadly applicable Special debuffs in every-spawn-usage make it counter-productive.  PGA's Sleep is more effective at reducing incoming damage than Acid's -Special -ToHit.

[Monos King]

9 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Acid's going into my secondary build on all of my characters, including my masterminds, for teaming or AV/GM combat.  For soloing, the DoT and lack of any broadly applicable Special debuffs in every-spawn-usage make it counter-productive.  PGA's Sleep is more effective at reducing incoming damage than Acid's -Special -ToHit.

I noted most of that earlier, but it's worth mentioning again MMs in general are mostly incompatible with PGA. Acid Arrows DoT is no worst than the rain of damage henchmen provide (and many of them also have DoT anyway). 

 

The weird lieutenant and boss beyond to hit floors continue to be troubling, but when you're dealing with the pets that counter-act PGA in nearly every situation, I've found the -to hit helps survivability even in the small increments. Not to mention acid Arrows -recharge and -to hit increase is quite compatible with the -recharge and -to hit many MM henchmen posess.

Edited November 13, 2020 by Monos King

[Luminara]

32 minutes ago, Jacke said:

Now, if Acid Arrow's -Special included boosting other -Res attacks....

 

Can't.  -Res is a very strange mechanic.  It's resisted by Resistance, it's buffed by +Damage, and it doesn't have a -Special counterpart because of those interactions.  It would take a lot of extra work to create a mechanic to buff -Res without doing something odd, and a lot more time testing and straightening out issues.  For instance, it might cause incoming damage on the target to be buffed, above and beyond the -Res applied, because of the way +Damage buffs +Res and -Res.  Or it might cause -Res to drop Resistance values below the floor.  Or, hell, it could even cause enemy attacks to be buffed in some way.

 

-Res is one of those things best left alone.

[Luminara]

38 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

What if Acid Arrow provided a moderate -Max HP Debuff?

 

I was thinking about that earlier today.  It would be thematically viable.  Inhaling acidic vapors doesn't tend to be healthy.  Acidic vapors cause watering of the eyes, difficulty breathing, pain in the throat, eyes and chest, and a build-up of fluid in the lungs.  Among other things.

 

But I wouldn't expect it to be an appreciable amount, likely no more than 5-10%.  I still wouldn't bother with it in my solo builds at those percentages.  Especially if it's affected by the purple patch.

[Jacke]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

In a similar way to how Disruption has a small -Max End, what if Acid had a small, perhaps non-stacking and ignores buffs and enhancements, -Max HP?

Interesting idea, -Max HP in Acid Arrow.  That might be very useful.  EDIT: And @Luminara says maybe, but likely limited effect, Purple Patched, and unlikely to make Acid Arrow any better for soloing.

 

But considering the -Max End in  Disruption Arrow.  That's very situational. Talked about sapping enemies on the last page.  You have to floor both their End and Rec.  Because NPCs have lots of End and Rec compared to their End use.  If they have even a sliver of blue bar, they're attacking you NAH.

 

With my Kinetics/Elec Defender, I hit them with Short Circuit to floor Rec and get about half their End, then Transference to get the rest of their End and give some to my toon.  Will -Max End help...?

 

Maybe not.  Short Circuit and Transference powers are stated in percentage.  -Max End won't help percentage effects.  If I'm wrong and it does help those powers, it could make Transference completely drain enemy.  But that's not good enough unless Short Circuit zeros their Recovery.  And the -Max End from Disruption doesn't seem to be strong enough to make Short Circuit both floor Rec and drain all End all by itself.  So my Defender still has to use Short Circuit and Transference both at least once.

 

40 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Acid's going into my secondary build on all of my characters, including my masterminds, for teaming or AV/GM combat.  For soloing, the DoT and lack of any broadly applicable Special debuffs in every-spawn-usage make it counter-productive.  PGA's Sleep is more effective at reducing incoming damage than Acid's -Special -ToHit.

Thanks for that detailed analysis, @Luminara.  Gives me a much better feel for the power.  And in light of @Monos King's insight into how the powers interact with a MM and their pets....

 

32 minutes ago, Monos King said:

I noted most of that earlier, but it's worth mentioning again MMs in general are mostly incompatible with PGA. Acid Arrows DoT is no worst than the rain of damage henchmen provide (and many of them also have DoT anyway). 

 

The weird lieutenant and boss beyond to hit floors continue to be troubling, but when you're dealing with the pets that counter-act PGA in nearly every situation, I've found the -to hit helps survivability even in the small increments. Not to mention acid Arrows -recharge and -to hit increase is quite compatible with the -recharge and -to hit many MM henchmen posess.

...I seem to have stumbled upon a reasonable position for single builds for a TA/Archery Defender and a Ninjas/TA Mastermind.  The Defender almost ignores Acid Arrow now and would be hard pressed to include it earlier than level 49.  While the Mastermind has it at level 24 and slotted it more.

 

I view PGA primarily for its -Dam.  I think of the Sleep from PGA as a bonus that requires my team to stick to single-target.  Even soloing, that may not be that often.

 

30 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Can't [do a Special that increases -Res].  -Res is a very strange mechanic. 

 

It's resisted by Resistance, it's buffed by +Damage, and it doesn't have a -Special counterpart because of those interactions.  It would take a lot of extra work to create a mechanic to buff -Res without doing something odd, and a lot more time testing and straightening out issues.  For instance, it might cause incoming damage on the target to be buffed, above and beyond the -Res applied, because of the way +Damage buffs +Res and -Res.  Or it might cause -Res to drop Resistance values below the floor.  Or, hell, it could even cause enemy attacks to be buffed in some way.

 

-Res is one of those things best left alone.

I was aware that Damage Resistance is its own resistance to debuff and because of that, that buffing -Res would be fraught with peril.  Decided to just wonder.  Thanks for detailing the complexity.

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by Jacke

[csr]

3 hours ago, Jacke said:

Good analysis in your post, @csr.  I believe you're right about the Annihilation proc being -12.5% Res, which is what Mids says.  Just checked the recipe and the IO, but only says it's 3PPM, no debuff value given.

 

For my planned Ninjas/TA Mastermind (hey, I'm an AR/Dev veteran, unloved toons are me specialty 🙂), I have more slots to play with and more flexibility in what level to take Acid Arrow.  It was going to be at level 24 and eventually with 4 Bombardment, one the Fire damage proc, and the Achilles -Res proc.  I think I'll switch one of the Bombardments to the Annihilation proc.

 

5 slots with 3 procs.  I'm using a -Def -Special arrow with a minimal DoT hoping for enough -Rec and fire damage from procs to make taking the power worth it.  The Ninjas have enough Accuracy and ToHit (build has Maneuvers, Assault, and at 48 Tactics).  And I've already got unprocced -Res in Entangling Arrow and Disruption Arrow.

 

Now that I think about it, I wonder if the build would be better dropping Acid Arrow and moving Tactics down to level 24 and add another power (I've already got Stealth and Grant Invisibility, could go for Phase Shift, or Vengeance).  Or adding in Aid Other (build has only 3 Pools so far so I can add Medicine).  I can just resummon Ninjas, but would the Oni be better served by my toon having Aid Other?  Hmmm.

I haven't played the set yet on an MM.  I think that's where Acid Arrow will be at its best though (discounting the proc-monster build mentioned earlier).  Obviously those sub-level henchman can get value from the -Def.  (I'm using Imps, which are themselves -1 level).  Glue Arrow will be great for Ninjas.

 

I may fiddle around with various procs in Acid Arrow after I've tested the -Special further.

[Wavicle]

I've played it on several MMs and to be honest although the -Def from Acid is as valuable as ever, and the size of the aoe and length of the debuff are nice improvements, the -Special Res and -Heal aspects of the power are no less, frankly, invisible, on an MM.

[csr]

5 hours ago, Wavicle said:

They put the -Res from Acid Arrow into Disruption. That was a good change. Adding it back is a bad idea. So there needs to be a better solution.

The problem I'm seeing is three-fold:

1. The -Special scales with the Purple Patch, meaning you get double-whammied by that scaling both the -Special and then what the -Special is supposed to make better.
2. The -Special probably stacks from multiple casters (I say "probably" because I haven't been able to test that).  Balancing for that is likely to make it weak in solo play.
3. The -Special appears to be ignored in certain cases.  So far everything I've found with ToHit Debuff Res simply ignores the -Special that should affect that.  The -30% shows up in the Power Analyzer, but the total ToHit Debuff Res isn't changed and there is no alteration in the ToHit Bonus or Last Hit Chance numbers with or without Acid Arrow.

The last of those is some sort of bug, which I'll test further and report [Edit: Not a bug.]  The second seems the most difficult to fix.

 

So far the best suggestions I've come up with are simply to change the cast to 1.16s and give it a 1.2x Acc modifier to make it a little better for using as a -Def tool and live with the highly disappointing -Special component.

Edited November 13, 2020 by csr
Corrections

[Bopper]

12 minutes ago, csr said:

The last of those is some sort of bug, which I'll test further and report.  The second seems the most difficult to fix.

It's not a bug, Captain Powerhouse already reported on why you're seeing this. LTs have a minimum ToHit Debuff Resistance of 10%, Bosses and EBs have a minimum of 20%, and AVs have a minimum of 30%.

 

So the reason you're not seeing a change is because they are already at the minimum. So you'll only see a change on Minions (their minimum is -300%) and AVs (they tend to start at 85-87% resistance, so there's room for debuff).

Edited November 13, 2020 by Bopper

[csr]

21 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Its not a bug, Captain Powerhouse already reported on why you're seeing this. LTs have a minimum ToHit Debuff Resistance of 10%, Bosses and EBs have a minimum of 20%, and AVs have a minimum of 30%.

 

So the reason you're not seeing a change is because they are already at the minimum. So you'll only see a change on Minions (their minimum is -300%) and AVs (they tend to start at 85-87% resistance, so theirs room for debuff).

Thanks, wish I'd seen his post on that, it would have saved me some wasted testing.  That's the problem with coming to testing a particular set late and trying to play catch up on the thread.

Edited November 13, 2020 by csr

[csr]

5 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

Acid only applies 36% of the Special debuff to lieutenants and 32% to bosses, so you'd increase Flash's -ToHit from ~17.55% to ~23.87% on lieutenants and ~23.17% on bosses.  That's presuming +0 foes.  If you're fighting +3 foes, you're looking at something more in the range of going from ~11.41% to ~14.08% on lieutenants and ~13.78% on bosses.

 

Basically, ~2-6% extra -ToHit, level differential dependent.  Weigh that against the potential to keep every minion in your PGA awake with Acid's DoT.  With a slightly improved debuff on minions (minions have a 300% -ToHit resist floor, as opposed to lieutenants (10%) and bosses (20%)), the higher the difficulty setting the lower it's going to be (purple patch) and the larger the spawns, the more attacks made and the more hitting you and your henches.

 

Acid's going into my secondary build on all of my characters, including my masterminds, for teaming or AV/GM combat.  For soloing, the DoT and lack of any broadly applicable Special debuffs in every-spawn-usage make it counter-productive.  PGA's Sleep is more effective at reducing incoming damage than Acid's -Special -ToHit.

This is kind of what I posted earlier, but the Resist floor actually means Acid Arrow doesn't change your -ToHit vs anything but Minions and AVs (see Bopper's post and Capt P's earlier in the thread - I'm guessing Underlings get hit too).  So that tends to make the criticism and conclusion drawn here even stronger.

Edited November 13, 2020 by csr

[Wavicle]

Heck, give it a Strong, unresistable -HP debuff. That’d make it worth it

[Bopper]

2 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Heck, give it a Strong, unresistable -HP debuff. That’d make it worth it

Way too powerful. You get a league of 40 trick arrows and watch every challenge in the game get killed thanks to stacks of Acid Arrow and someone attacking with Brawl

[Wavicle]

Just now, Bopper said:

Way too powerful. You get a league of 40 trick arrows and watch every challenge in the game get killed thanks to stacks of Acid Arrow and someone attacking with Brawl

Non stacking.

[Bopper]

12 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Non stacking.

You're now talking about a bruising mechanic where only one debuff from any character can be applied at one time. That would require a lot of hackery to pull off, and honestly the juice isn't worth the squeeze. Trick Arrow doesn't need anything else. If anyone has data that proves otherwise, show me. But I have already tested and analyzed it to show it is possibly the strongest overall debuff set in the game

Edited November 13, 2020 by Bopper

[csr]

8 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Way too powerful. You get a league of 40 trick arrows and watch every challenge in the game get killed thanks to stacks of Acid Arrow and someone attacking with Brawl

I get the impression that Acid Arrow is as weak as it is because of fear of end-game stacking of the -Special.

[Wavicle]

Just now, Bopper said:

You're now talking about a bruising mechanic where only one debuff from any character can be applied at one time. That would require a lot of hackers to pull off, and honestly the juice isn't worth the squeeze. Trick Arrow doesn't need anything else. If anyone has data that proves otherwise, show me. But I have already tested and analyzed it to show it is possibly the strongest overall debuff set in the game

I agree, I just want to find a way to make Acid Arrow worth it.

[Wavicle]

What if the -Special was strengthened, but was limited to, say, 5 stacking from different sources.  Similar to how Interface works.

[Bopper]

3 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

I agree, I just want to find a way to make Acid Arrow worth it.

If you don't need it in your build, skip it. You don't need to take all 9 powers in a powerset. For those that see the value of the power will take it. But as it sits right now, it needs no adjustments. The only adjustment needed doesn't pertain to the power, rather the default settings of ranked enemies. But that will require future work, so not appropriate at this time.

[Wavicle]

8 minutes ago, Bopper said:

If you don't need it in your build, skip it. You don't need to take all 9 powers in a powerset. For those that see the value of the power will take it. But as it sits right now, it needs no adjustments. The only adjustment needed doesn't pertain to the power, rather the default settings of ranked enemies. But that will require future work, so not appropriate at this time.

Interesting. That makes sense.

[Bopper]

18 minutes ago, csr said:

I get the impression that Acid Arrow is as weak as it is because of fear of end-game stacking of the -Special.

It certainly is a force multiplier power. However some of the stacking is likely overkill anyways. EMP arrow with Acid Arrow will single handedly take away a Level 50 AV's regeneration for 45s. The To-Hit debuff, if it worked fully, likely won't matter in most content where softcap is already commonly achieved. That mostly leaves endurance drain as an avenue of force multiplying which may or may not be of interest to PvE'ers. 

 

*edit, just to show what I meant by single handedly flooring an even con AV's regen.

-500% x 1.40 (defender AA) x (1.00 - 0.85) = -105% regen debuff

Edited November 13, 2020 by Bopper

[Wavicle]

If it’s overkill as you say then that seems to undercut your argument from before that it’s fine. Overkill means it’s not doing anything.

[Bopper]

2 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

If it’s overkill as you say then that seems to undercut your argument from before that it’s fine. Overkill means it’s not doing anything.

I was saying stacking is overkill