Something to play towards or un-necessary forced time sink

[Starforge]

6 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

This is just the best community!

To be fair, the CoH community is not some monolithic group. I am continuously amazed that people still think that is the case because you see it a lot with people claiming such about the role-playing “community”.

[Lockpick]

35 minutes ago, Starforge said:

At this point we are playing a pirated game that shut down eight years ago. Any sort of gating existing costume pieces or whatever we have access to now is a nonstarter.

 

It’s a horrible idea because as has been mentioned numerous times already, you can impose whatever self limitations you want on accessing stuff and there is nothing wrong with that. 
 

Now if new items are created down the road we will obviously be able to test that and provide constructive feedback at that time if there is any sort of grind involved in obtaining those things.

 

I completely agree with this post.  I haven't suggested changing any existing stuff.  I have suggested adding new rewards.

 

I'm not sure where anyone is getting the idea that people are advocating for changing existing rewards, but it is not something I am advocating.

[Naraka]

23 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

I tackle depression where and when I see it, I don't consider it to be off limits.

I am not demonizing anyone by recognizing humans play to get hits of dopamine, it has nothing to do with addiction in general.

This is the first post I have even referenced addiction on these forums, I think.

 

IMO, you tried to use some idea that there is an onus on the players running a game should feel bad for not getting more people to play, because those players 'needed' the game.

That's it.

If that is not your intent, as you have explained, Great!

 

You can read in whatever else you like.

The initial comparison to adding more and different rewards for various content, be they badges, powers, costumes or unlocks was to give someone more things to achieve, more goals to aim for. The apparent argument against that is, you can impose your own limitations as your goals and you don't need the game to give you dopamine hits. 

 

A common coping mechanism to help fighting the motivation factor of depression is setting goals and achieving them.  This point is specifically targeting those that have waning motivation either to do varied content or to come back and play. That's the whole point of the discussion. The point had nothing to do with making people feel bad for not paying or being a support for those who are actually suffering from depression but rather getting those that are playing a stuff routine or are just 'complete' with the game to come back and keep going.

[Coyotedancer]

27 minutes ago, Night said:

I know, right? When a buncha people are trying to force pointless restrictions on things everyone should access too, just roll over. This thread should be locked anytime now anyway.

And apparently I'm some sort of terrible, entitled bully because I'd have liked my Oranbegan characters to have their glowing eyes way back when... Truly, the root of all evil. 😝

[Coyotedancer]

25 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

 

I completely agree with this post.  I haven't suggested changing any existing stuff.  I have suggested adding new rewards.

 

I'm not sure where anyone is getting the idea that people are advocating for changing existing rewards, but it is not something I am advocating.

 

I think it's mostly a matter of  those in the "against it" camp (myself included-) seeing the suggestion of locking out new costume parts as just a perpetuation of the same old problem/situation/annoying circumstance. 

 

For me, it was annoying not to have an aura back in the day.... For someone else, it may well be just as annoying now not to have access to New Item X , which will get locked behind Some Content Y or getting Badge Z that they can't do until the character hits level 30.

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, Lockpick said:

No, I'm not saying that at all.  What I said was pretty basic.  It is my opinion that is appropriate occasionally to gate rewards behind having to unlock in game to include costume parts.  I think you keep misinterpreting me to try and justify your position.

 

I'm telling you what the result of gating cosmetic items really is and how it comes across in this game.

[Lockpick]

 

 

19 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

I think it's mostly a matter of  those in the "against it" camp (myself included-) seeing the suggestion of locking out new costume parts as just a perpetuation of the same old problem/situation/annoying circumstance. 

 

For me, it was annoying not to have an aura back in the day.... For someone else, it may well be just as annoying now not to have access to New Item X , which will get locked behind Some Content Y or getting Badge Z that they can't do until the character hits level 30.

 

16 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

I'm telling you what the result of gating cosmetic items really is and how it comes across in this game.

 

I understand stance that both of you are taking.  I have suggested we get past the costume part component because we seem to be getting stuck there.  I think the HC team has made it clear they are not going to lock costume parts behind gates.

 

Are you interested in any of the other suggestions beyond the costume parts?

[Coyotedancer]

As I already said, when it comes to other things... badges, accolades, temp powers and what-have-you... Sure. Have at it. I have no issue with those being locked out at all. It's just locking out costume options that I see issues with.

[CrudeVileTerror]

As usual, I don't like to speak for everyone, but from the get-go of these discussions, it's always the costumes bit that people seem to get hung up on, on both "sides."

 

- (Re)Locking standard costume parts as rewards would be a move which would spark significantly massive outcry.

- New / Special costume parts as rewards would spark plenty of outcry too.

- NPC costume parts as rewards seem to be "okay" by many people's estimations, but those of us who have had previous experiences with locked costume pieces being an issue empathize with players who would probably find that problematic too (has @Purrfekshawn commented in this thread yet?).

- Badges aren't "good enough" for some players as a reward.

- Many players (including those that don't want costume pieces used as rewards!) agree that the game isn't providing enough in-game incentives/rewards for some content (Levels 1 to 44, looking at you!).

 

Do any of these points sound incorrect?  Did I get anything blatantly wrong?

 

If it's all accurate, may we move on and just agree that "costumes as rewards are not the path forward.  OTHER rewards need to be added / addressed," please?

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, Lockpick said:

Are you interested in any of the other suggestions beyond the costume parts?

 

Anything subjectively viewable as "better", i.e. "Yay, ShinyThing makes me prettier!/Yay the might of @Jimmy's nipples has made me more fearsome!", don't gate.  That's my position.  Branches in arcs or missions, temporary powers, accolade powers, whatever, as long as they aren't required to progress, build your gates.

 

Badges and titles are arguable, as titles themselves are subjective improvements to some people, but they don't alter the core of the character, they're extras.  Not having a desired title doesn't change how we see a character the way not having a cosmetic item does.  As such, I'd lump in with the content safe to gate.  People can still make the characters they imagine and play them, and pick up the badge/title whenever without feeling morose or frustrated.

 

I'll also add that gates shouldn't be extraordinary unless the reward is similarly extraordinary.  Defeat 500 Skulls is an example of a bad gate.  Despite having the option to defeat that many Skulls "quickly" with a level 50, it's still significantly more time than similar badges, and the reward doesn't reflect that.  Make the gates accessible by making them organic (meaning, something earned through natural progression and which promotes continued participation, not making them out of the bones of your enemies (unless your enemies really, really deserve it (and you won't be caught (and you don't mind the smell (and there are no wild animals who will eat your gate))))), or make the rewards worth gating if the gate is notable in requiring effort or dedication.

 

You suggested badges for veteran levels in concert with specific other badges having been unlocked.  The question that comes to mind immediately is, is an extra badge/title really for grinding veteran levels enough incentive to accomplish the goals?  For those who are already invested enough to continue playing the character, the badges/titles are irrelevant.  For those who aren't, does that badge/title provide sufficient reason to invest further in that character?  Does placing badges/titles behind veteran levels satisfy the crowd who want more gates/grinds, or are they going to look at it decide that these badges/titles aren't actually worth bothering with because the reward doesn't justify the time invested?  Essentially, do the gates and rewards meet the goals, or are they just concessions?

[Solarverse]

9 hours ago, Ignatz the Insane said:

This is the part that's baffling to me.  You questioned earlier why people continued to play if they didn't like gated content.  It's because while gated content was annoying and largely unnecessary, it wasn't a dealbreaker.  On the other hand, it was apparently a dealbreaker for 'lots' of players when gated content disappeared?  This doesn't make much sense to me.  I'm not saying this to disparage.  

The closest example I can think of is WoW, when they made it easier to achieve raid gear.  Some players were furious because people didn't have to 'earn' gear anymore.  But that analogy isn't close because most gated content in CoH was cosmetic in nature.  Am I missing something?  It's entirely possible...I'm not the brightest bulb.  

Not just the gated content, you have to remember the Debt system basically getting removed, it's so pathetic now I am not even sure why we even have a Debt system anymore. It's so trivial now it's pointless. I can't say for certain it had anything to do with unlocking costume pieces, but just how the game was made easier and easier over time. For an example, let's take a look at Star Wars Galaxies....remember what happened after CU?

Here, let this ring a bit of what happened and then what the company said after they had lost a good portion of their playerbase after making the game easier.

Media outlets criticized the changes of the "Combat Upgrade"while subscription cancellations rose. After the New Game Enhancements were implemented in November 2005, sparking huge demonstrations in-game from the majority of players, various media outlets criticized the reduced depth and complexity of the game, but John Smedley, president of Sony Online Entertainment, defended the decision claiming it necessary to revamp the game in order to reverse the deterioration they were seeing in the subscriber base. SOE offered refunds on the Trials of Obi-Wan expansion due to it being released two days before the New Game Enhancement was announced. The development team affirmed this was their desired direction for the game and that they would modify parameters to address player's concerns. Features such as expertise trees were later added to the game to add complexity and differentiation to characters. After the announcement that SOE had acquired the game Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, Smedley addressed that game's players about the perceived threat of major changes to the game: "We've learned a thing or two with our experiences with the NGE and don't plan on repeating mistakes from the past and not listening to the players."

 

This all happened because this game was not meant for the causal player. Sure, a casual player could play the game, but a casual player was not going to progress in the game as fast as the dedicated player would. This game was made for the hard core player who wanted a challenge, who wanted a game that challenged them in many various different ways. This is what MMOs were all about in those days. Casual player seen the games, loved the concept of them, but did not like the difficulty of them, so they took to the forums and became very loud about wanting the games changed to be made for the casual players. The players who loved the game as is fought back, but sadly lost that battle.

SOE caved in to the casual player and added CU, which caused a lot of players to leave the game. It hurt them, it hurt them bad. However, SOE thought that in time, they would get enough casual players to try the game out and in time would cover the loss from the players leaving in mass droves.

 

Then SOE once again ignored their hard core playerbase and came out with NGE. After that, they lost more players than they bargained for and it hit them hard in the wallet after those players left in mass exodus. They never recovered after that and was forced to shut down. In the end, the developers finally admitted that they made a huge mistake listening to the casual player and alienating their hard core fan base and said they would never do that again.

 

With City of Heroes, I cannot pin it all on one change, it was many negative changes (for the hard core fan base) that caused the hard cores to leave the game. However, I don't think the changes to costumes had anything to do with that. I am just saying adding new costumes to gated content (at least for a short period of time) could give players like me that sense of working toward a goal...and it doesn't have to be costumes, it can be anything really.

[Solarverse]

7 hours ago, KC4800 said:

I think if a player wants a restriction imposed he can just do it himself.  We can pretend that we have to run the cape mission before we put on a cape. We can pretend we have to go to Cim before we wear Roman headgear. We can impose any restriction we want if we have enough self-discipline.

Scroll back through the conversations and you will see how this was covered and why that is just a horrible solution.

[Solarverse]

5 hours ago, Lockpick said:

 

I think this bolded and highlighted section is probably the most important section I have seen in this thread.  I know @Solarverse has tried to explain it multiple times from his perspective and it doesn't seem as though people are understanding his points, so I'll take a stab.  I'm not sure I can explain it better than he has already though.

 

Yesterday I was wondering why I was spending my time replying to this thread as opposed to playing the game.  After all, I love this game.  It was my first MMO.  I started playing when it first came out.  I was going through a rough patch and I can honestly say that playing this game kept me out of a lot of trouble,  I probably played 15 to 20 hours per day early on.  Over the years my play time diminished, but I was still probably playing 20 hours per week and had 2 accounts due to the character slot restrictions.  It was a happy moment when my first character dinged 50!  I was always happy when I unlocked my travel power or earned a cape for the characters then needed them.  Still happy today when I unlock one of the 4 passive powers.

 

I was pissed when the game was shut down and was ecstatic when it came back.  I again jumped right back in and played like crazy becasue I was afraid it would get shut down again.  Over time I gradually diminished my play time, but was still playing 10 to 15 hours per week.

 

Recently I have been trying to think about what I should do in game.  My typical routine is to get a character to 50, incarnate to T4, make sure I have the 4 passives, make sure the costume slots are unlocked, make sure I have $100M Inf.  Once I do that I take an alt through the same journey.

 

I now have 18 level 50 characters with the majority of them complete within the parameters I set.  I have 2 level 40s and probably 20 characters in the 30s.

 

The desire to play the game is slowly ebbing away because I don't feel like there is a way for me to continue to progress once I hit 50 and my parameters.  I like to be rewarded for playing content because I feel like I am being rewarded and am achieving an accomplishment, but once you cap yourself with all the rewards that are available that you believe provide a reasonable reward there is really no reason to play further.

 

My thoughts are that additional rewards added to existing content will allow continual progression.  That is why my suggestions focused on adding rewards to the task forces, vet levels, etc.  There would be an incentive to progress and a feeling of accomplishment.  I also think that adding rewards to vet levels means more people would play one character longer leading to them becoming more well known within the server community and fostering more community spirit.  I have no stats to back that up, just my opinion.

 

I honestly don't know hwy people keep acting like we are talking about making the whole game move in this direction.  I have not suggested that at all.  I have suggested adding additional new rewards to existing content.  I have not suggested changing any current rewards at all.  My take is that there are no rewards for certain sections of the game.  Let's add some rewards there.  No one is getting those rewards today, so it shouldn't really be an issue if they choose not to earn those fictional rewards in the future.

 

Y'all know this is just my opinion, right?  I'm not trying to take anything away from anyone or tell anyone how to play the game.  I am just expressing my opinion.

This right here. Well said, Lockpick. Another option for progression could be that every so many Vet Levels we unlock 1 new Enhancement Slot. Or even perhaps tie an Enhancement Slot to a Task Force, or a New Task Force. There are many ways to help us feel rewarded and achieving something, it does not have to be costumes. If players are willing to compromise but want costumes a no-go zone, I am okay with this, there are other ways we can go about it.

[Solarverse]

5 hours ago, Lockpick said:

Please explain where I been "tearing down or directly insulting other POVs to make you point."

 

I have gone out of my way to try and be polite and reasonable in my opinions, so not sure if you are misinterpreting something I said.  I'm not denigrating anyone else's playstyle.  I am just providing my opinion and suggestions on what I think will make the game better.

I think he is referring to me. He has been trying to engage in to conversation with me over the past couple of weeks now and I simply won't respond to him no matter what he says about me, even if it means that I do not defend myself against his false claims. I just let him say whatever and ignore him. He has a bad habit of making false accusations and argues with strawman tactics. I have learned that I simply cannot hold a conversation of any kind with him because of this, so now I let him say whatever he pleases about me and simply refuse to respond. He has a bad reputation of doing this on these forums and his opinion of our community and the HC Devs have been made clear. Simply put, I have absolutely nothing to say to the guy.

[Solarverse]

5 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

And apparently I'm some sort of terrible, entitled bully because I'd have liked my Oranbegan characters to have their glowing eyes way back when... Truly, the root of all evil. 😝

Nobody said that...

[Luminara]

17 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

With City of Heroes, I cannot pin it all on one change, it was many negative changes (for the hard core fan base) that caused the hard cores to leave the game.

 

I have to contest that conclusion - this game was never hard, nor designed for the hardcore.  The biggest, hardest hitting change was Enhancement Diversification, and it was a joke to hardcore players.  I proved that with my Kin/pool melee character.  When a player can solo a GM with zero damage enhancements, zero status protection, zero Defense, zero Resistance and attacks which dealt less damage than defender T1 blasts, that early in the game's life and immediately following a massive global nerf, it's not a hard/hardcore game.

 

Hardcore players expecting hardcore content in this game were destined to be disappointed.  Co* was never designed to be anything but a casual player game.

[Solarverse]

4 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

I think it's mostly a matter of  those in the "against it" camp (myself included-) seeing the suggestion of locking out new costume parts as just a perpetuation of the same old problem/situation/annoying circumstance. 

 

For me, it was annoying not to have an aura back in the day.... For someone else, it may well be just as annoying now not to have access to New Item X , which will get locked behind Some Content Y or getting Badge Z that they can't do until the character hits level 30.

I thought we have moved past the costumes as being an option for gated items? Pretty sure we have moved on from that and are now seeking alternatives.

[Coyotedancer]

1 minute ago, Solarverse said:

Nobody said that...

 

You might want to go back and re-read Naraka's post on the subject... 

Edited November 21, 2020 by Coyotedancer

[Solarverse]

4 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

As I already said, when it comes to other things... badges, accolades, temp powers and what-have-you... Sure. Have at it. I have no issue with those being locked out at all. It's just locking out costume options that I see issues with.

What about new enhancement slots?

[Coyotedancer]

Just now, Solarverse said:

What about new enhancement slots?

 

I'd have no issue with that either. An extra enhancement slot isn't going to impact a character concept the same way locked costume bits did.

[CrudeVileTerror]

If you mean Enhancement Storage, hell yes!

If you mean in Powers for Slotting purposes:  I'm sure the "game balance" arguments will be against that, but I'd be cool with being able to unlock Enhancement Slots either earlier by grinding for it, or in addition to the current max, but would want it to be an any-level sort of thing in either case.

[Coyotedancer]

3 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

I thought we have moved past the costumes as being an option for gated items? Pretty sure we have moved on from that and are now seeking alternatives.

 

You may want to look at the time stamps for VT's post and the one you quoted, Solar... Unless you're reading the thread backwards it's pretty obvious that they posted their summary AFTER that.

 

Personally, I'm done talking to you about this. I suggest you just ignore list me if you're going to continue to have objections to every single post I make. 

[Coyotedancer]

3 minutes ago, CrudeVileTerror said:

If you mean Enhancement Storage, hell yes!

If you mean in Powers for Slotting purposes:  I'm sure the "game balance" arguments will be against that, but I'd be cool with being able to unlock Enhancement Slots either earlier by grinding for it, or in addition to the current max, but would want it to be an any-level sort of thing in either case.

 

A good point. The people who are Very Concerned about power creep would likely have some objections to new slots. 

[Solarverse]

6 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

I have to contest that conclusion - this game was never hard, nor designed for the hardcore.  The biggest, hardest hitting change was Enhancement Diversification, and it was a joke to hardcore players.  I proved that with my Kin/pool melee character.  When a player can solo a GM with zero damage enhancements, zero status protection, zero Defense, zero Resistance and attacks which dealt less damage than defender T1 blasts, that early in the game's life and immediately following a massive global nerf, it's not a hard/hardcore game.

 

Hardcore players expecting hardcore content in this game were destined to be disappointed.  Co* was never designed to be anything but a casual player game.

Okay, I'll meet you half way there and say it was harder then, but not hard core. I agree with your point.

[Solarverse]

6 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

You might want to go back and re-read Naraka's post on the subject... 

I stand corrected.