Broadsword/Shields - The Thing that should not be.

[Samyrmancer]

I am having a lot of fun with my 40th broadsword/shield stalker but I never seem to use Shield Charge so it doesn't feel like I do much with the secondary. The broadsword is fun, however.

 

I have more fun simply because of my character concept. I've  made a wraith and float around one- or two- shotting things in the back of the mobs. I frequently find myself chuckling at how bad that must have sucked for the monster.... to be one-shotted out of nowhere.

 

I might roll the char with a different secondary. Its not that I feel that shield isn't good, I just don't seem to ever use any of my shield stuff. I just float around, gank things wherever I feel like it, and then wander off. Overall, it's very entertaining.

[KaizenSoze]

6 hours ago, Samyrmancer said:

I am having a lot of fun with my 40th broadsword/shield stalker but I never seem to use Shield Charge so it doesn't feel like I do much with the secondary. The broadsword is fun, however.

 

I have more fun simply because of my character concept. I've  made a wraith and float around one- or two- shotting things in the back of the mobs. I frequently find myself chuckling at how bad that must have sucked for the monster.... to be one-shotted out of nowhere.

 

I might roll the char with a different secondary. Its not that I feel that shield isn't good, I just don't seem to ever use any of my shield stuff. I just float around, gank things wherever I feel like it, and then wander off. Overall, it's very entertaining.

You can bind shield charge to a key, that will make it easier to use. See:

 

Shield charge works best in groups, let the tank aggro. Then SC, which puts you right in the middle of the group for easy access to your next victim.

[Samyrmancer]

Yes, I looked for that and found it yesterday. I think I will like that a lot.

 

I just really like the look/personality of my char. I want to keep playing it.

[Samyrmancer]

I hit 48 today and am about to respec for 50. I have a few questions if people have the time.

 

1. BS is able to take defense debuffs in most of our attacks. What do you think of putting Achille's Heel and + to hit buff procs in each of our attacks. Do the effects stack?

2. Do you think it is more important to put damage procs or make certain that all of ACC/DAM/END/REC are covered?

 

I've been looking at attacks like Headsplitter. A sample enh setup might go:

1. DAM

2. DAM/END

3. DAM/ACC/END

4. DAM/ACC/END/REC

5. Achille's Heel Res Debuff

6. Analynze Weakness + To Hit

 

Missing would be some of the END/REC enhancement and the proc of the set. In return, would be lowering their resistance and increasing our to hit with 1 out of every 3rd hit.

 

Thoughts?

[Neiska]

i just made one of these (sword and shield) and im loving the style. it feels sort of tanky, though im only level 40 so far. still unsure what incarnates to go with, and i do wish i could sneak flight into the final setup just for convince. i just wish it had a bit of AoE. even just one or two besides that baby one from Broadsword.

 

She is my first stalker though, and more often than not my placate fails. it doesnt rehide me, mabye i have it slotted wrong? its mostly for +hit i think.

[Hjarki]

On 8/2/2019 at 1:02 AM, Zerethon said:

Broadsword is scary because the DPA (Damage per activation) is EXTREMELY high especially on crits, so it's DPS Trends higher in a stick&move fight and it's in-place DPS isn't shabby either

Hack is a relatively high damage per activation attack for a basic attack. However, no basic attack cracks into the top 3 for high damage per activation on a Stalker set.

 

The top 3 for Broad Sword are Head Splitter, Assassinate and Moonbeam. Those latter two are the in the top 3 for every Stalker primary.

 

Head Splitter is the lower third of damage-per-activation for Stalker heavy attacks (it beats Claws, Dual Blades, Electric Melee, Ninja Blade and Spines; it's less damage-per-activation than the heavy attack from all the other sets).

[zohawn]

1 hour ago, Hjarki said:

Hack is a relatively high damage per activation attack for a basic attack. However, no basic attack cracks into the top 3 for high damage per activation on a Stalker set.

 

The top 3 for Broad Sword are Head Splitter, Assassinate and Moonbeam. Those latter two are the in the top 3 for every Stalker primary.

 

Head Splitter is the lower third of damage-per-activation for Stalker heavy attacks (it beats Claws, Dual Blades, Electric Melee, Ninja Blade and Spines; it's less damage-per-activation than the heavy attack from all the other sets).

So take moonbeam no matter what?

[Zerethon]

1 hour ago, Hjarki said:

Hack is a relatively high damage per activation attack for a basic attack. However, no basic attack cracks into the top 3 for high damage per activation on a Stalker set.

 

The top 3 for Broad Sword are Head Splitter, Assassinate and Moonbeam. Those latter two are the in the top 3 for every Stalker primary.

 

Head Splitter is the lower third of damage-per-activation for Stalker heavy attacks (it beats Claws, Dual Blades, Electric Melee, Ninja Blade and Spines; it's less damage-per-activation than the heavy attack from all the other sets).

ET can't crit, STJ Needs combos, KM Needs constant crits and tanks on a missed build up or crit, Rad melee is great....but 'tis ET Animation so slow as sin, staff i haven't yet decked out at 50 but the whole set feels much slower and weaker than others, Savage is great with bleeds so it has setup like STJ....

Ice, well, is just Ice. Dark actually is probably second-best with it's rarer damage type and additional immobilize (And crit, it's only an ST where HS is actually AOE and is 50%)

On-paper numbers don't impress me, and in my playtesting with fully-decked stalkers, i notice i DO more with sets like broadsword, dark, energy, electric, ice, etc. since i don't have any other mechanics to worry about.

STJ is amazing....if i keep combo points, Savage is amazing....if i have stacks of bleeds, etc. Like i LOVE my Savage/Shield stalker TO DEATH, but in practice he doesn't feel NEARLY as destructive, even with a similarly complete build and Incarns. Absolutely shreds heavy targets though, not terrible against swarms either but a lot of times i find myself missing stuff like head splitter/disembowel when i'm playing newer sets. those fast heavy attacks with good damage

 

[Zerethon]

4 minutes ago, zohawn said:

So take moonbeam no matter what?

Sniper attacks can crit, moonbeam hits like a truck on crits and can debuff targets with proc shenanigans or nearly one-shot lighter AT's in PvP from miles away.

Shadow meld is also an amazing "OH FU--" Button and can hold an LotG +rech, the hold ain't bad either.

Given that ghost widow is canonically the Night widow leader, makes sense she's the stalker sugar momma

Edited August 25, 2019 by Zerethon

[Glowman]

Zerethon is your posted build the order you would take abilities and place enhancements if you were leveling up?

[Zerethon]

3 hours ago, mikeconqueso said:

Zerethon is your posted build the order you would take abilities and place enhancements if you were leveling up?

Pretty close, yeah, slotting is season to taste as you level as always, but it's maybe 3-5 slots off from how i leveled mine up

[Hopeling]

On 8/20/2019 at 3:38 AM, Samyrmancer said:

1. BS is able to take defense debuffs in most of our attacks. What do you think of putting Achille's Heel and + to hit buff procs in each of our attacks. Do the effects stack?

Achilles' Heel does not stack. It's worth slotting one, probably in Disembowel, and you can also put a Fury of the Gladiator proc in Head Splitter. I wouldn't slot multiple of either.

 

I'm not sure about the Analyze Weakness proc, but I doubt it would be worth slotting multiple of them even if it can stack. If you need +tohit for the accuracy, I'd rather use a Kismet, but if you want it to pair with a snipe, putting one in a regular attack seems fine.

Quote

2. Do you think it is more important to put damage procs or make certain that all of ACC/DAM/END/REC are covered?

Enhancement values are more important, especially acc/end. No amount of procs will help if the attack misses or is too expensive to use. Procs vs damage is a trickier question, but usually damage slotting is better than damage procs up to the ED cap. Typically you slot an attack with 4-6 pieces for the enhancement values, then 1-2 procs if they can fit after getting all the acc/dam/end/rech you need for that attack.

[Crysis]

Just wanted to jump on the bandwagon here and say thank you for this thread.  I played one Stalker on Live and it was only for PVP purposes, and permanent-locked into Siren’s Call level of PVP.  Never left the zone.  I’m a weirdo and have problems thematically with a Stalker running around on Blue side.

 

So I got over that theme issue, actually have a toon with a “reason” for being Blue side now and totally rebuilt my original main BS/Shield Scrapper into this BS/Shield Stalker.  I’m not quite as durable as my Scrapper was solo, but in teams, I’m dealing sooooo much more damage its almost embarrassing.  I’ve even had scrappers in the thick of things next to me asking me how I’m able to crit so much.  While they whittle away at their one hard target, I take out the whole spawn around the tank and then come over to finish up theirs for them.  

 

I’m only 38 right now, so END is a serious problem and I’m worried about my 40’s in that regard.  I may take Body Mastery and then do a respec closer to 48 when I can get all my other set bonuses slotted out. 

 

I must say on Homecoming there’s so many more powersets to play with now, and I really appreciate you pointing out how utterly broken, in a fun way, this one is.  Thanks!

[Gulbasaur]

On 8/30/2019 at 12:00 PM, Crysis said:

I’m only 38 right now, so END is a serious problem and I’m worried about my 40’s in that regard.  I may take Body Mastery and then do a respec closer to 48 when I can get all my other set bonuses slotted out. 

 

Yeah, you just have to either slog it out or put end reduction in all your attacks, which usually works out much better than slotting your toggles. 

[Crysis]

1 hour ago, Gulbasaur said:

Yeah, you just have to either slog it out or put end reduction in all your attacks, which usually works out much better than slotting your toggles. 

I just decided to go Body Mastery from 41 onwards.  I’m 47 now and that fixed my End issues.  

 

Leveling Advice:

 

For anyone following this thread, the build is going to have you sucking END when solo or otherwise not teamed with an END enhancing support partner.  And all of the purple IO sets in the posted builds are only slottable at level 50, meaning you’ll have to use alternative sets and thus won’t reach your full potential until 50+ anyways.  And without Parry buffs you’ll be below softcap for everything, so heed that warning about working it into your chains.  

 

So my suggestion is follow the build as posted until 41, when you’ll diverge and take Body Mastery’s Superior Conditioning at 41 and Physical Perfection at 44.  I suggest three slotting SC with one Perf Shifter +End and two End Recovery enhancements, and 2 slotting Physical Perfection with another Perf Shifter +End and Preventive Medicine +Absorb proc.  Without heals and with less-than-softcap DEF you will find it kicking in more than you’d think.  Feel free to take Laser Beam eyes at 47 and Hasten at 49.  Then once you’ve hit 50 and got your Alpha slotted up (go Agility Core or Cardiac would be my suggestions) collect your purpled and do a respec into Z’s posted build.  

 

I felt very OP on teams up till my early 40’s.  But the lack of END, coupled with the amount of energy attacks (against which you’ll have a whopping 11% DEF without Parry) knocked me down several pegs.  Build accordingly to mitigate.

 

 

[Rambolazer]

Anyone else find it odd/OP that shield charge doesn't remove you from hide?

[Crysis]

5 hours ago, Rambolazer said:

Anyone else find it odd/OP that shield charge doesn't remove you from hide?

Shield Charge is coded as a pseudo pet, so it’s your pet doing the damage, not you.  Oversight on Devs part likely.  

[SuperQ!16]

This Broadsword Stalker meme is still greatly confusing me. What is so great about Headsplitter compared to, say, any other Stalker single target T9? Just looking in game DPA numbers, Headsplitter is the lowest damage of all the ST T9 attacks.

 

[BS] Headsplitter = 11.16

[DM] Midnight Grasp = 13.33

[FM] Greater Fire Blade = 12.78

[MA] Eagle's Claw = 11.58

[NB] Golden Dragonfly = 12.46

[StJ] Crushing Uppercut = 14.65

[Staff] Skysplitter = 12.68

 

It is barely better than Eagle's Claw and MA is considered a pretty mediocre set across the board. Meanwhile Disembowel has lower DPA than Shin Breaker, Cremate, and Soaring Dragon. I feel like I am missing something because I do not see the power of this combo compared to almost any other primary. Especially powerhouse sets like Street Justice or Fire Melee. Can someone break it down for me?

Edited September 3, 2019 by SuperQ!16

[Frostweaver]

Disembowel+headsplitter.

Disembowel crits from hide. Headsplitter doesn't. (or doesn't often enough to not make it worth it)

Level 50, decent build (my bs/bio build)
The attack chain- Hit buildup. You might get double buildup.
Disembowel- 800 damage, 2 seconds. chance for recharge

Head splitter- 650 damage, 2.5 seconds,
moonbeam- 500 damage, 1 second

Hack- 400 damage, 1.5 seconds

AS- 1 second? Maybe less?  800 damage

You have probably re-hidden, and all your stuff is recharged, including your buildup. If you haven't, you follow up with parry for 15% melee/lethal and 200 damage. If you have, you repeat

This is WITHOUT hasten. 3150 damage in 7 seconds. double buildup increases this by like 50%. technically you could quadruple buildup (but it's unlikely.
The thing is... these are not 'paper numbers'. That 7 seconds gives you a lot of leeway for emergency parries, heals, etc inside the ten second bu window. Other primaries have slightly higher 'big hitter' tier 9's, but they don't have something like headsplitter to follow it up with.

I have seen BS stalkers singlehandedly rip AV's to half health inside of 30 seconds. 3 repeats of the basic attack chain. and because of hack, their damage doesn't suffer as badly as  a lot of other stalkers when they exemplar. Plus you wind up pretty soon with massive defense numbers on a resistance secondary while others are looking at -200%

THAT is what the big deal is.

Now, there are other primaries that might do it better or have a faster initial attack string damage, possibly STJ, but I haven't seen it. and I don't know whether they hold up under exmplar.

I am not sure what the big deal about shield is, other than shield charge, but I know it's considered top tier foor it's combination of defense and resistances as well as maybe OP. and you cannot use it with Katana, claws, dual blades, or staff. Dark is plagued with high animation speed attacks, and eagle's claw is the outstanding member of a fairly low dpa set.
 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Frostweaver

[SuperQ!16]

Ok but Cremate from Fire Melee and Shin Breaker from StJ both crit from hide and do more damage than Disembowel. And Cremate is a T3 attack and much more useful when exemping than Disembowel which is T8. Shin Breaker is also T8 and is equally as useful when exemping as Disembowel.

 

I was checking the numbers in game again and I see Headsplitter has 50% crit chance from hide. Meanwhile, Crushing Uppercut and GFS have a guaranteed crit from hide. AND do more damage in general.

 

Good call on not being able to use Ninja Blade with Shield. That does make irrelevant in comparison.  Dark Melee was the "buzzsaw" back in the day. It's attack are extremely fast and have very high DPA outside of Shadow Maul. The total activation time for your main chain is a bit lower than Broadswords chain, according to in game data. What is does lack however is any meaningful AoE.

 

Not trying to derail the thread but I am seriously trying to see the light here. I do see how Broad Sword Stalkers are by far the best version of Broad Sword though! Does Headsplitter have a higher native crit chance out of Hide? Is that what is making the difference? Where can we see those numbers?

[Hopeling]

7 hours ago, SuperQ!16 said:

This Broadsword Stalker meme is still greatly confusing me. What is so great about Headsplitter compared to, say, any other Stalker single target T9?

Nothing. Broadsword's performance is not exceptional compared to other Stalker primaries; you can see this in eg pylon numbers. But the Stalker version of Broadsword is exceptional compared to other AT's versions of Broadsword, because Stalker Broadsword is just about up to par with other secondaries, while eg Scrapper Broadsword is just an inferior version of Katana.

 

The draw of Broadsword was always supposed to be that it had big single hits, and at launch, Head Splitter really was one of the biggest attacks a Scrapper could get, with Disembowel not far behind. Hack is still one of the stronger level 1 powers in any melee set. But then Scrappers got War Mace with Clobber, and a half-dozen other new sets came along which all had Knockout Blow-type powers, and Head Splitter just doesn't stand out anymore, which leaves the set with subpar DPA and no strength to call its own.

 

With AS and Hide crits, and potentially a 31% crit rate on regular attacks, Stalkers are all about big crits, which plays well to the Broadsword fantasy. Broadsword doesn't get any more out of Stalker mechanics than eg StJ does (arguably, it gets less), but it gets enough for the set to feel satisfying.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Hopeling

[Frostweaver]

I just think it's kind of funny that you are mentioning individual attacks from each set, rather than the attack chain.

Come on, come up with a better attack chain instead of picking and choosing from the different sets. You cannot build a stalker with cremate, shin breaker, eagle's claw, and Golden Dragonfly. The idea that you can pick and choose individual examples instead of entire sets is laughable.

Oh look, remember how I told you earlier about "Pylon people" who think that stalkers and scrappers are the same thing would eventually show up? Go on

40 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

Nothing. Broadsword's performance is not exceptional compared to other Stalker primaries; you can see this in eg pylon numbers.

Told ya so. Pylon people. Numbers in a static, controlled environment against a single hard target without any environmental, cover, or other conditions.

I bet you play on Torchlight.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Frostweaver

[Hopeling]

52 minutes ago, Frostweaver said:

Oh look, remember how I told you earlier about "Pylon people" who think that stalkers and scrappers are the same thing would eventually show up? Go on

Told ya so. Pylon people. Numbers in a static, controlled environment against a single hard target without any environmental, cover, or other conditions.

I bet you play on Torchlight.

Excuse me?

 

I don't know what "Torchlight" is. I have leveled about a dozen melee characters to 50 the hard way though, including multiple with Broadsword, and the whole point of my comment is that scrappers AREN'T the same as stalkers.

 

Seriously, I am deeply confused where this scorn is coming from. I wasn't even responding to what you said, much less disagreeing with it, which is why I quoted SuperQ!16 rather than you.

[Frostweaver]

I didn't mean to get personal, I just had a round dozen torchlighters yesterday talking about Pylon tests and how scrappers were better at single-target damage than stalkers and brutes both, which anyone who actually PLAYS the class knows is patently false. So I greet the phrase "Pylon testing" with a great deal of fairly well-deserved scorn when it comes to certain classes and powersets that rely on status effects/situation that pylons do not simulate.

I LOVE stalkers, and have played cold/ Psi/ DB/ Katana/ BS/ Dark/ and SM/ up to 50 the hard way. I have also played Staff/ Rad/ elec/ and Claws/ to mid-30's before abandoning them as either unsuitable to a stalker playstyle(rad/ claws/) or simply not any fun for me (staff/ elec/). I play other classes, but my dearest love is and probably always will be Stalkers.

And I can tell you from experience, that Your claims that BS performance is a "Fantasy" of broadsword fans is not only patently false, but offensive as hell. We have tested and played the set. We are quite capable of determining how long it takes to Drop Nemesis, Romulus, Malice, Marauder, and stupidly gigantic council robots, and a host of others and whether or not we die, and it is not a 'fantasy' in the slightest. Yes, I take offense at the idea that our experiences are simply the product of a fevered imagination.

 

YOU might not know how to play it or slot it well, but MY experience is that the unique combination of slotting options, defense, speed, recharge, and DPA without having particular enemies nearly immune to your effects made for one of the fastest, and most satisfyingly powerful, levelling/Incarnate to vet 99 I have experienced. Playing against +4 content, defense manipulation, both yours and your enemy's, make a REAL difference, unlike Pylons, which are simply a great pile of even-level hit points and regen you have to saw through.

As I have stated before, I have not tried StJ on a stalker. I have tried it on a scrapper, and was not particularly impressed, much as I assume you were not probably impressed with BS on a scrapper. As to whether or not it is 'top of the line' for stalkers, I cannot really compare it, as scrappers are all about DPS and their crits are random and uncontrolled.

But Broadsword is DEFINITELY one of the top, if not THE top, performer for stalkers in General and Incarnate content.... especially solo. Not on every map, not against every enemy, but against the vast majority? Absolutely. I have no idea if STJ outperforms it, and someday I am likely to find out, when I roll my next stalker. This is not a 'Fantasy'.


torchlight is a server. Most Pylon monkeys, know-it alls, and 'mids tells you everything you need to know and a set' types seemed to be from there. Mids (Mids reborn, Pines) is an AMAZING tool for figuring out slotting, but it's ability to tell you how something will actually perform is hugely lacking... because that's not it's scope.
 

Edited September 4, 2019 by Frostweaver

[Without_Pause]

5 minutes ago, Frostweaver said:

As I have stated before, I have not tried StJ on a stalker. I have tried it on a scrapper, and was not particularly impressed

SJ on a Stalker loses a single target attack and gains AS. That to me is a significant upgrade. I didn't get far with my SJ/sd scrapper, but absolutely love my SJ/ea stalker who only just stared to slot common IOs.

 

Since melee has to factor in moving around more than ranged attacks sets, burst is far more important than DPS where a ranged player can merely stand there and Tab through mobs. BS should easily be more than fine on a stalker. I would look for a set which gives +recharge as BS is known for being slow.