Most Unstoppable Tank

[Dark Dove]

Just now, Infinitum said:

Stalkers are that way in case you were wondering - I have a few excellent builds if you want.

You could alternatively be an adult about it.  You don't have to gatekeep tankers because you think it's only right when it's your way.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Dark Dove said:

You could alternatively be an adult about it.  You don't have to gatekeep tankers because you think it's only right when it's your way.

Its not my way or your way - the mechanics of stealth are counterintuitive to how tankers operate - if you would be objective you could see that based on the game figures I posted to you.

 

Even if you turn off toggles you will still agro something because you aren't going to be precise enough to avoid the radius required to keep you hidden - unless you play it ultra safe which goes against the efficiency you are saying it yields.

 

If thats a mini game to you - there is nothing wrong with that, but it is the exception - not the norm when it comes to normal tanker slotting power choices and operations.  Its like playing your mastermind petless as a weakened blaster.

 

What you are describing and is far more effective at it is a stalker.

[Dark Dove]

2 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Its not my way or your way - the mechanics of stealth are counterintuitive to how tankers operate - if you would be objective you could see that based on the game figures I posted to you.

 

Even if you turn off toggles you will still agro something because you aren't going to be precise enough to avoid the radius required to keep you hidden - unless you play it ultra safe which goes against the efficiency you are saying it yields.

 

If thats a mini game to you - there is nothing wrong with that, but it is the exception - not the norm when it comes to normal tanker slotting power choices and operations.  Its like playing your mastermind petless as a weakened blaster.

 

What you are describing and is far more effective at it is a stalker.

None of this is tanker specific or has anything to do with tankers in general other than they are in the game City of Heroes and have access to powers that include stealth radius.  You could reinsert this line of thought into any other AT.  Stalkers didn't even exist when stealth was brought into the game.

 

Also, here's me, playing this OH SO COMPLEX MINIGAME with a SINGLE STEALTH IO IN SPRINT (which I know is crazy, nobody does that for slotting, it's soooo far outside of the norm) and Cloak of Darkness and no other stealth.  I'm rubbing against them in ways that are beyond the age rating of this message board and they don't see me.  WHAT ARE YOU EVEN TALKING ABOUT.

 

[Infinitum]

22 minutes ago, Dark Dove said:

None of this is tanker specific or has anything to do with tankers in general other than they are in the game City of Heroes and have access to powers that include stealth radius.  You could reinsert this line of thought into any other AT.  Stalkers didn't even exist when stealth was brought into the game.

 

Also, here's me, playing this OH SO COMPLEX MINIGAME with a SINGLE STEALTH IO IN SPRINT (which I know is crazy, nobody does that for slotting, it's soooo far outside of the norm) and Cloak of Darkness and no other stealth.  I'm rubbing against them in ways that are beyond the age rating of this message board and they don't see me.  WHAT ARE YOU EVEN TALKING ABOUT.

 

And .5 seconds later they all turn to attack you.

[Dark Dove]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

And .5 seconds later they all turn to attack you.

No, they don't.  I stood there for five minutes while doing other things.  Maybe you should try playing this game first.

 

I invite you to log in with me and I'll do it for you with you as an audience if you can't be bothered to do it yourself before making ridiculous claims.  You've already said you won't go to the trouble of turning off an aura to avoid triggering mobs, so I assume you're too good to actually play the game either?

 

This is ridiculous though, I'm not interested in your trolling anymore.  Take care!

[Infinitum]

10 minutes ago, Dark Dove said:

No, they don't.  I stood there for five minutes while doing other things.  Maybe you should try playing this game first.

 

I invite you to log in with me and I'll do it for you with you as an audience if you can't be bothered to do it yourself before making ridiculous claims.  You've already said you won't go to the trouble of turning off an aura to avoid triggering mobs, so I assume you're too good to actually play the game either?

 

This is ridiculous though, I'm not interested in your trolling anymore.  Take care!

ridiculous claims = game mechanics - roger chief.  have a good night.  Enjoy your stalker.

[Dark Dove]

3 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

ridiculous claims = game mechanics - roger chief.  have a good night.  Enjoy your stalker.

Thanks!  I will have a good night and I do enjoy my stalkers.  I love my tanker though, who also happens to have stealth built in, and will continue to have stealth built in.  It's a nice bonus, really makes Dark Armor more attractive to play.

 

I note that you decided not to take me up or go in game and see for yourself on your special brute.  This makes all of your advice on all things tankers suspect at best.

 

[Dark Dove]

I'm in game on Everlasting right now.  I'll even teleport you to the mission with your fresh level 1.  That way you can check all my powers for any funny business and watch me dance with these council.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Dark Dove said:

I'm in game on Everlasting right now.  I'll even teleport you to the mission with your fresh level 1.  That way you can check all my powers for any funny business and watch me dance with these council.

How about let me pick the mission?  want to try that?  Im on excelsior.  I tend to do things a little harder than council.

[Dark Dove]

2 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

How about let me pick the mission?  want to try that?  Im on excelsior.  I tend to do things a little harder than council.

My tanker isn't on Excelsior.  I'll do whatever mission you want.  It doesn't matter what mob, like I said earlier, only +perception mobs see you with this setup or with superspeed.  We covered all of this.

 

You're wrong.

 

Come to everlasting and I'll show you.

 

EDIT:  Oof, I am falling hard for your trolling so I'll try again to extract myself from this nonsense.  Good job though.

Edited January 2, 2021 by Dark Dove

[Infinitum]

17 minutes ago, Dark Dove said:

My tanker isn't on Excelsior.  I'll do whatever mission you want.  It doesn't matter what mob, like I said earlier, only +perception mobs see you with this setup or with superspeed.  We covered all of this.

 

You're wrong.

 

Come to everlasting and I'll show you.

 

EDIT:  Oof, I am falling hard for your trolling so I'll try again to extract myself from this nonsense.  Good job though.

Eh, no im not.

 

I guess i play content a littler harder than you do - there is a lot of +perception stuff out there - council roflstomping isnt something we are into really unless is the citadel weekly.  But to each their own.

[Dark Dove]

8 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Eh, no im not.

 

I guess i play content a littler harder than you do - there is a lot of +perception stuff out there - council roflstomping isnt something we are into really unless is the citadel weekly.  But to each their own.

Yeah, you are.  Just by adding condescension that you play harder content than I do, proves you're trolling, and hard - as if what content difficulty someone plays at matters.  I play the same missions, task forces, and trials you do, with very difficult settings sometimes too.  Doesn't change the conversation, which you apparently have now conceded.  You know +perception works on stalkers too, right?  If they don't slot additional stealth it's the same thing.  Again, this was never in question, stealth mechanics are as they are, we all know how they work (except for you, who seemed to think you should be able to walk in with a taunt aura and not get attention) and it doesn't change anything.

 

Even if you were offering something of value to the conversation other than your "I'm right, TANKERS TOUGH HEHEH stealth works like this!" bluster, it wouldn't matter because again, this stealth radius nonsense doesn't have anything to do with the original talking point of Stealth being in the Energy Aura tanker translation.  Which it should be, because it works like stealth and is an incentive to play the set, just like Cloak of Darkness is for Dark Armor.  It does nothing to detract from the tanker and only adds a bonus, while also being packaged with other nice bonuses within the power, such as defense, just like Dark Armor.

 

I could get behind a noFX option for the stealth though, that seems like a reasonable addition that doesn't take anything away from anyone.

 

[Infinitum]

16 minutes ago, Dark Dove said:

Yeah, you are.  Just by adding condescension that you play harder content than I do, proves you're trolling, and hard - as if what content difficulty someone plays at matters.  I play the same missions, task forces, and trials you do, with very difficult settings sometimes too.  Doesn't change the conversation, which you apparently have now conceded.  You know +perception works on stalkers too, right?  If they don't slot additional stealth it's the same thing.  Again, this was never in question, stealth mechanics are as they are, we all know how they work (except for you, who seemed to think you should be able to walk in with a taunt aura and not get attention) and it doesn't change anything.

Even if you were offering something of value to the conversation other than your "I'm right, TANKERS TOUGH HEHEH stealth works like this!" bluster, it wouldn't matter because again, this stealth radius nonsense doesn't have anything to do with the original talking point of Stealth being in the Energy Aura tanker translation.  Which it should be, because it works like stealth and is an incentive to play the set, just like Cloak of Darkness is for Dark Armor.  It does nothing to detract from the tanker and only adds a bonus, while also being packaged with other nice bonuses within the power, such as defense, just like Dark Armor.

 

I could get behind a noFX option for the stealth though, that seems like a reasonable addition that doesn't take anything away from anyone.

 

No no no, its just a fact that harder content has more challenging stuff to break down defenses, perception, stealth, resistances, speed, recharge, dmg, to hit. everything. Thats just a fact.

 

 

+perception mobs

They have to hit the stalker first or do something for it to matter to increase the threat rating for the rest of the group though - for a tanker that threat rating is through the roof and once visible the agro takes over - where on a stalker you can literally sustain fire from a +perception mob for a good while with a stalker and not agro the group - we are referring to stealthing a map and if the stalker did get noticed its long gone and the rest of the group wont notice. - with a tanker you cant because their threat rating is higher and its what a tanker is supposed to do.

 

Wanna know how i know this - i knew you would bring that up and i wanted to make sure my memory served me correctly on this point - i just tested it against the Rikti watching combat stats.  Now go try that with your tanker and tell me how quickly the group turns on you.  There is a lot of +perception stuff in higher level or incarnate missions - not knocking you but thats what i mostly do.  I like the challenge whether it be tanker scrapper stalker or brute. Not knocking you there.

 

Thats my point.

 

16 minutes ago, Dark Dove said:

Again, this was never in question, stealth mechanics are as they are, we all know how they work (except for you, who seemed to think you should be able to walk in with a taunt aura and not get attention) and it doesn't change anything.

What?  lol

I never once said that - i said my playstyle as a tanker is to not turn anything off and just roll through whatever is in front of me.

 

Go back and read my first responses to you - i said your way was fine - nothing wrong with it - just ineffecient for what tankers do - and in every factual sense that is correct.  If you are stealthing missions you arent playing a tanker role - again i said nothing wrong with that.

 

Tankers dont need stealth to function as a tanker - also a fact.

 

Take that with a grain of salt - or dont.  You seem to be kinda ruffled right now.

 

I really dont care at this point but i think you are taking this harder than you should - why should you care what i think anyway?

 

you do you - mmmk?

Edited January 2, 2021 by Infinitum

[Dark Dove]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

Go back and read my first responses to you - i said your way was fine - nothing wrong with it - just ineffecient for what tankers do - and in every factual sense that is correct.  If you are stealthing missions you arent playing a tanker role

Nope.  You're wrong again, and we covered this already.  All you do is repeat the same thing over and over, so I'll repeat it for you again.  Not everyone plays the way you do, and the way you believe Tanker roles should be played is not the only way, and it is not the most efficient way either.  It's just one method.  If you are stealthing missions, you are literally any AT in the game.  It isn't an AT specific playstyle choice.  This stealthing playstyle is not role-related, it is a method to finish missions quickly which can be applied by any character with stealth capacity.  It again has nothing to do with specifically tankers, other than Tankers being one of the AT's that get access to powers with stealth.

[Dark Dove]

5 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Take that with a grain of salt - or dont.  You seem to be kinda ruffled right now.

 

I really dont care at this point but i think you are taking this harder than you should - why should you care what i think anyway?

I don't care what you think specifically, but anyone viewing this public forum might want to know the actual facts rather than your misguided efforts to push aside the reality of the situation with silly straw-man stealth radius junk. I do care what other players think, who might be walking into this thinking you're some kind of expert on it when you're clearly not.

 

Stealth is good, even for tanks, and if you aren't using it when you have access to it, you aren't playing as efficiently as you could be playing.  Some players like to utilize all of the tools available to them, and stealth is one of them in the toolbox which can be put to good use, on a Tanker or any other AT or role.

 

Energy Aura should absolutely keep the stealth in it, the same way Dark Armor did, it's great, useful, and doesn't detract from the powerset or from the Tanker role.

[Infinitum]

Just now, Dark Dove said:

Nope.  You're wrong again, and we covered this already.  All you do is repeat the same thing over and over, so I'll repeat it for you again.  Not everyone plays the way you do, and the way you believe Tanker roles should be played is not the only way, and it is not the most efficient way either.  It's just one method.  If you are stealthing missions, you are literally any AT in the game.  It isn't an AT specific playstyle choice.  This stealthing playstyle is not role-related, it is a method to finish missions quickly which can be applied by any character with stealth capacity.  It again has nothing to do with specifically tankers, other than Tankers being one of the AT's that get access to powers with stealth.

I love how you keep telling me I'm wrong, but I'm telling you your way is fine.

 

You are right - the way I play tankers is not the only way(never said it was - you put those words in my mouth), you could 6 slot brawl and go all ranged with no other melee in the epic pools if you wanted to - it would be fine too if that made you happy.

 

But that still isn't what the tanker role is considered to be.  No amount of hand clutching you do at me will change that.

 

I would wager more tankers play the way I do than the way you do.

 

But like I said you do you.   Its fine, have fun with it thats all that matters.

[Dark Dove]

Just now, Infinitum said:

I love how you keep telling me I'm wrong, but I'm telling you your way is fine.

 

You are right - the way I play tankers is not the only way(never said it was - you put those words in my mouth), you could 6 slot brawl and go all ranged with no other melee in the epic pools if you wanted to - it would be fine too if that made you happy.

 

But that still isn't what the tanker role is considered to be.  No amount of hand clutching you do at me will change that.

 

I would wager more tankers play the way I do than the way you do.

 

But like I said you do you.   Its fine, have fun with it thats all that matters.

You too, have fun!  Be safe, take care, and all of the platitudes.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Dark Dove said:

Stealth is good, even for tanks, and if you aren't using it when you have access to it, you aren't playing as efficiently as you could be playing. 

That is incorrect - it's your belief - which you are entitled to.

 

[Infinitum]

10 minutes ago, Dark Dove said:

but anyone viewing this public forum might want to know the actual facts rather than your misguided efforts to push aside the reality of the situation with silly straw-man stealth radius junk.

Which I literally posted from paragon wiki.  Not my words - paragon wiki.  Just for the record here.  lol

 

10 minutes ago, Dark Dove said:

I do care what other players think, who might be walking into this thinking you're some kind of expert on it when you're clearly not.

I'll let my builds do the talking for me - dont like them - fine.  If they work for you - also fine and glad I could help.

 

However anyone chooses to play them is up to them, but I'm always around to help if asked - and ive been wrong a good bit at times on all sorts of topics, but not about what the tankers role is.

Edited January 2, 2021 by Infinitum

[Dark Dove]

3 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

That is incorrect - it's your belief - which you are entitled to.

 

And you are entitled to your belief.

 

This seems eerily similar to a "you're wrong" that you're so above saying, however.  Let's just agree that we're both saying we're wrong so that we can rise above the semantics. You don't have some kind of moral high ground here, we're talking about video game mechanics.

 

We differ in playstyle, but my assertions don't change the game for anyone else. My assertions are that stealth can be used with positive effect.  Your assertion is what exactly?

 

That stealth on a tanker is bad so take it away?

 

One of these assertions is damaging to others with some playstyles, the other is not.

 

Please give me your actual assertion if I'm reading you wrong.  This is getting long and tedious and you haven't been succinct in your feelings about it, only about how stealth works, which was never in question.

[Dark Dove]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

and ive been wrong a good bit at times on all sorts of topics, but not about what the tankers role is.

There is a first for everything, but I don't even think it matters what you think the role of a tanker is.  This isn't a role-related issue.  Sometimes tankers are solo.  Sometimes tankers are teamed with all other tankers.  There are a lot of times when roles lose meaning in this game. This isn't about roles.  It's about stealth being a reasonable addition to any AT, including tankers.  Every power doesn't have to further a role in a set, some can be luxuries, some can be for fun.  I feel like we've tread this ground before but I guess we'll go there again.

 

Is stealth also not in the Blaster role?  What about controller role?  Kheldian?  Brute?  Scrapper?  It doesn't matter, they can all get stealth and use it beneficially.  There are many ways to stack stealth radius as well, so that issue is easily solved.  And you can also build your tanker to be defensively difficult to hit, and still use stealth when that isn't necessary.  Both options can be used at the same time.  YOU CAN BE RIGHT TOO!  I can agree with you!  Imagine this, I'm the tough tanky tanker haha!  I'm also the stealthy stealth tanker that can click that glowy without a streakbreaker hit from the mob that followed me in when I don't use stealth, because I used stealth instead, and now my team that doesn't want to clear the map can take a sigh of relief and move on to the next mission.  Saved the day and we're both right, I could have tried to click that glowy with a mob of enemies shooting at me, but I didn't have to, I saved time because that streakbreaker never interrupted me this time around!  Next time though, when I stealth in and click the glowy, oh no!  The mob saw me!  they're shooting me!  But I'm also a tanky tough tanker, and I can dodge almost every hit so eventually, even with the odd streakbreaker, I can click that glowy and save the day again!

 

I'm not saying you can't play your way and be correct.  I'm saying both ways are correct.  You're saying my way isn't correct.  The only things I said you were wrong about, if you read them, were your topics of conversation, the angles you are trying to push, and specifically your stuff about stealth radius that isn't what I'm arguing, I concede that stealth radius is a thing that is a game mechanic, I've conceded it before, get over it please and address the rest of the argument, the fact that stealth radius exists does not change the fact that stealth is a useful tool to have that can increase your efficiency, regardless of AT or role.

 

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

Which I literally posted from paragon wiki.  Not my words - paragon wiki.  Just for the record here.  lol

Again, I conceded stealth radius is a thing, and asserted that it isn't relevant.  Yes you have hard facts to back up that stealth radius is a thing.  We all know!  This isn't any gotcha topic, we know.  It doesn't further the conversation though, it just states what we all know.  Just for the record, I concede stealth radius is a thing!  You can be seen!  GASP!  Now, back to our regularly scheduled bickering.

 

 

Edited January 2, 2021 by Dark Dove

[Wobegone]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

You are right - the way I play tankers is not the only way(never said it was - you put those words in my mouth), 

 

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

But that still isn't what the tanker role is considered to be.  No amount of hand clutching you do at me will change that.

These two statements appeared in the same friggin' post for cryin' out loud.  

 

Tanks are perfectly capable of effectively stealthing most content.  I occasionally do with my Dark Tank.  Every bit of evidence you've presented regarding perception applies to every other AT.  You've even admitted you don't or won't turn off Taunt auras.  Of course why would you when you don't consider stealthing a Tank's job?   The crux of your argument is basically 'Tanks can't stealth because that isn't their job'.  

 

Edited January 2, 2021 by Ignatz the Insane
Yes, yes, radius, but for most content that isn't a problem.

[Haijinx]

Please keep in mind the Stealth was removed in Sent EA. 

 

Replaced with the Power Armor power

[Erratic1]

7 hours ago, Infinitum said:

you really dont know how tanker auras work.  unless you arent using them - then you really dont know how tankers work.

 

Im not sure which one is true at this point.

I know how aura work. I am talking about how people play the game--a  point on which I have been quite clear regardless of you need to repeatedly twist mine and other peoples statements into something other than what they are.

[Arisara]

On 12/11/2020 at 8:13 AM, The_Warpact said:

The last person standing kind of tank, the one that puts "super" into superman, the Unstoppable in Juggernaut, etc.

First consider what you're not thinking about a tank derived from the words "last person standing". If you're a tank there should be no one last. Everyone should be standing at the end of the fight. Often I have joined blasters, controllers.. other types boasting of their ability to tank this or tank that yet their teammates get defeated. Tanking is not only killing and surviving. A tank will maintain aggro no matter what anyone else does. If you're teammates are dying you're not tanking. Ya may as well make a scrapper.

 

To the question; hmm.. an unstoppable tank. I have a few ideas of what they are and verified the results from playing the builds. I like the classic invulnerability/super strength invention set for defense and enough recharge for permanent rage. Recovery never was any trouble up through the levels thanks to monitoring values with Mids (thank you, Bopper and your Mids team).

 

I run a beautiful dark/dark tank built to instill fear. With the newest change to Touch of Fear making the power an AOE the tank maintains 8 magnitude fear AOE and 11 magnitude single target. Recovery is also not a problem here; recharge sets to operate permanent fear also assists Dark Consumption cooldown. The fear tanker has less resistance and defense than other tanks however when mobs only break fear every few seconds to get off a single attack I find using Dark Regeneration is not even necessary. Fear tanker also keeps going without rest.

 

I wanted a solo AV killer. My first attempt was rad/rad tank for reading Radiation Therapy's description mentioning it caused Foe -regen. For a long time I had not noticed the -regen effect does not apply to critters. When I did notice I checked Mid's database editor to find the answer. The -regen power does not apply to critters; it's a PvP application. Scrap one rad tanker. The second attempt at solo AV killer tanker kept radiation melee but switched out primary for Bio Armor. There I found DNA Siphon which DOES affect critters with -regen. Invention set for recharge and defense the build also never stops fighting for self heals cooling down in a timely manner, recovery well above average and having near cap defenses. Recharge was needed to ensure permanent -regen on an AV and everything turned out sweeter for DNA Siphon being PBAOE. Bring on Hopkins and Countess Crey at the same time!

 

A favorite a little away from tanker is an Electric Melee/Shield Defense brute. The build would work well as a tank though my purpose was as much damage buff as possible for the triple hit Spring Attack/Lightning Rod/Shield Charge. Brute Fury was the desire to add to the overkill. Ya.. I've seen the chatter about how underwhelming Spring Attack is. Beef it up! The build doesn't have the tanker gauntlet that makes the simplest attacks PBAOE taunt. Teammates still survive after the brute dishes out 2260 damage AOE before activating Thunder Strike and Chain Induction (usually there's nothing left to attack after the triple slam recharging each 38 seconds). Resting was needed after 4 fights or so until reaching level for Superior Conditioning (which keeps the brute going non-stop after that point). It's invention set for recharge (again the recharge.. I do go in for that on most builds) and did not need much in sets to overcap defenses. Unfortunately I don't show it off much on teams. No one else gets to kill a darn thing except an occasional stray runner.

 

Who hasn't tried their hand at a Fiery Aura/Ice Melee Tanker? After seeing a controller's Ice Patch everyone just gets the idea to lay one down with a Tanker and Burn enemies flopping like fish outta water. This one is invention set for defense as a primary concern. It ended up with 36 defenses, lower than usual smashing/lethal resists but still tanks well with Healing Flames and Consume (20 second cooldown and 77 second cooldown) picking up slack when something does manage to stand up and attack for a moment. As the others this one never needs to stop fighting.

 

Something with a little of everything: Martial Arts/Energy Aura. This one only comes in Brute form. The Tankers don't get Energy Aura at this time. .. Thus the Martial Arts for Cobra Strike stun and Dragon's Tale PBAOE to make up a little for the lacking Gauntlet taunts (and some Cross Punch cone thrown in). Invention set for defense with pool power defenses has overcapped almost everything (psionic defense is low) and it has 45 resistances to almost everything (fire/cold is low). Energy Drain and Energize keeps it fighting forever.

 

I've made other Brutes that fight forever but are not designed to tank so are not mentioned here in response to the original curiosity of what kinds of Tankers are unstoppable. Remember; tanking is not only killing and surviving. Tankers keep aggro off of everyone else.

On 12/11/2020 at 8:13 AM, The_Warpact said: