Accuracy vs to-hit

[Snarky]

Can someone go over the analysis of the to-hit and accuracy mechanics?

 

Whatever part of my brain was storing that found something better to do.  No doubt cat memes.

[Fingernailgun]

You start with a 75% chance to hit a minion your level.

 

Add 10% to-hit, you get 85% chance.

 

If, instead, you get 10% accuracy, you have 82.5 (75 + 7.5).

 

If you combine them, you have 93.5% chance to hit (85 + 8.5).

 

edit: if you're needing something more in depth, HitChance = Clamp( AccMods × Clamp( BaseHitChance + ToHitMods – DefMods ) )

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Attack_Mechanics

Edited December 16, 2020 by S P A C E S

[Lunchmoney]

What is clamp?

I'm seeing this

 

 

Edited December 16, 2020 by Lunchmoney

[Frostbiter]

The easiest way to see how it all works is to take a look at the hit chance formula. It's

 

HitChance = Clamp( AccMods × Clamp( BaseHitChance + ToHitMods – DefMods ) )

 

The clamp just limits the results to a number between 5 and 95. Basically To Hit can be seen as a direct counter to Defense while Accuracy is a small modifier after the final chance to hit is calculated. The link provided breaks it all down.

[Snarky]

34 minutes ago, S P A C E S said:

You start with a 75% chance to hit a minion your level.

 

Add 10% to-hit, you get 85% chance.

 

If, instead, you get 10% accuracy, you have 82.5 (75 + 7.5).

 

If you combine them, you have 93.5% chance to hit (85 + 8.5).

 

edit: if you're needing something more in depth, HitChance = Clamp( AccMods × Clamp( BaseHitChance + ToHitMods – DefMods ) )

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Attack_Mechanics

Okay.  So adding to-hit, like a Kismet Global is a 1 to 1.  Adding accuracy is a 1 to .75.  is that steady or is there diminishing returns?

[Snarky]

27 minutes ago, Frostbiter said:

The easiest way to see how it all works is to take a look at the hit chance formula. It's

 

HitChance = Clamp( AccMods × Clamp( BaseHitChance + ToHitMods – DefMods ) )

 

The clamp just limits the results to a number between 5 and 95. Basically To Hit can be seen as a direct counter to Defense while Accuracy is a small modifier after the final chance to hit is calculated. The link provided breaks it all down.

yes this is what i needed thanks.

[Frostbiter]

29 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Okay.  So adding to-hit, like a Kismet Global is a 1 to 1.  Adding accuracy is a 1 to .75.  is that steady or is there diminishing returns?

Kismet says To Hit but is actually a Global Accuracy bonus. There are no diminishing returns other than the clamp limiting the results. Accuracy is still really useful though, especially against mobs over your level. It's just harder to see because it helps normalize the spread of your hit rolls against harder targets while To Hit is usually "Hey! I can hit this guy now!"

[Mr. Vee]

8 minutes ago, Frostbiter said:

Kismet says To Hit but is actually a Global Accuracy bonus. 

it's actually the opposite. it says accuracy but is to-hit.

[Frostbiter]

2 minutes ago, Veelectric Boogaloo said:

it's actually the opposite. it says accuracy but is to-hit.

Ah, thanks. I can never remember which way it is. lol

[Sakai]

Ok so for us non mathy people (mainly me) +accuracy gives you a bigger bang for your buck right?

[Frostbiter]

 

13 minutes ago, Sakai said:

Ok so for us non mathy people (mainly me) +accuracy gives you a bigger bang for your buck right?

You should always plan to stack both TBH. It's always been a general rule of thumb that if you plan to fight +3s or higher than you need the equivalent of two accuracy mods in your attacks. For To Hit most people can achieve 86+ or higher pretty easily with Tactics. IO Sets have made slotting for Accuracy less of an issue than SO's since most of the Accuracy Mod bonuses total 60% or better in sets.

Edited December 16, 2020 by Frostbiter

[tidge]

12 minutes ago, Sakai said:

Ok so for us non mathy people (mainly me) +accuracy gives you a bigger bang for your buck right?

 

It should be noted that if your character uses snipes (e.g. Blasters, Patron Scrappers/Stalkers) the ToHit bonus contributes extra damage (up to +22% ToHit).

[drbuzzard]

9 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

It should be noted that if your character uses snipes (e.g. Blasters, Patron Scrappers/Stalkers) the ToHit bonus contributes extra damage (up to +22% ToHit).

It should also be noted that this only counts when actually sniping, not when fast sniping.

[tidge]

57 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

It should also be noted that this only counts when actually sniping, not when fast sniping.

I used to think so, but I believe the +ToHit -> +damage for all snipes (in Homecoming) fast or slow as a result of the Snipe changes.

[drbuzzard]

1 minute ago, tidge said:

I used to think so, but I believe the +ToHit -> +damage for all snipes (in Homecoming) fast or slow as a result of the Snipe changes.

Odd, when I tried it out, I only found a damage difference in slow sniping. I actually went to the trouble of pumping to hit as hard as possible on one blaster and it only had an effect on the slow snipes (the proc, tactics and targeting drone). I Tried turning off Tactics and taking out the proc, and the damage didn't change except for the slow snipes. Then I dropped tactics on a respec since slow snipes aren't enough of an excuse to carry it.

[Doomguide2005]

19 minutes ago, Sakai said:

Ok so for us non mathy people (mainly me) +accuracy gives you a bigger bang for your buck 

Short Answer: what @Frostbitersaid.

 

Longer Answer:  it will vary from build to build and with your difficulty setting.  I usual find myself looking for To Hit and outside of powers, inspires, 'other' the Kismet unique is the only way to get a To Hit bonus via sets/set bonus afaik.  Pretty much all my builds use it.  And the remainder probably run Tactics (and many likely both).  Against upscale (read vs +4s) foes To Hit is a much better choice for the effort.  You need a LOT of accuracy to strike something starting with a base to hit of 39.

[roleki]

10 minutes ago, Sakai said:

Ok so for us non mathy people (mainly me) +accuracy gives you a bigger bang for your buck right?

It depends what you are doing/how much you want to spend, but if you're routinely going after Orange and Purple stuff, ToHit gives you more bang for the buck, by far.  

Please bear with me on this, I swear I have done this before and it was more elegant, but I can't seem to find it.  Anyway, I am going to try and show how +Accuracy and +ToHit affect combat vs an even-con, a +1, and a +4.

 

Say you're up against an even-con critter, firing off a power with a base accuracy of 1.0, no Slotted or Global Accuracy Enhancements, no ToHit buffs or debuffs.  With your inherent ToHit of 0.75, your chance to hit that critter is 0.75 because HitChance = Clamp(1.0 x Clamp(0.75))

 

Now say you slotted the power with 0.33 Accuracy, bringing it up to an AccMod of 1.33; your chance ToHit that critter skyrockets to 0.9975 but gets restricted to 0.95 by Clamp because HitChance = Clamp(1.33 x Clamp(0.75))

 

But now say you're taking on a +1 and go to swing at it with your 1.33 Acc power; your base ToHit vs a +1 is 0.65.  Your ToHit vs that +1 is 0.86 because HitChance = Clamp(1.33 x Clamp(0.65))

 

For some reason, you feel like swatting at a +4. with your 1.33 Acc power; your base ToHit vs a +4 is 0.39.  Your ToHit vs that +4 is 0.52 because HitChance = Clamp(1.33 x Clamp(0.39))

 

So now, let's add a 0.15 Global Accuracy Enhancement from 120M worth of Purple enhancements, so your AccMod on this power is now 1.48 (1.0 + 0.33 + 0.15)

 

Even-Con calculated HitChance = .95 (clamped from 1.11)  because HitChance = Clamp (1.48 x Clamp(0.75))

+1 calculated HitChance = 0.95 (clamped from 0.962) because HitChance = Clamp(1.48 x Clamp(0.65))

+4 calculated HitChance = 0.58 because HitChance = Clamp(1.48 x Clamp (0.39))

 

But say you drop 4M on a Kismet +Acc instead of getting the Purple Set.

 

Your base ToHit vs an even-con is now 0.81 (0.75 + 0.06), vs a +1 is 0.71 (0.65 + 0.06) and vs a +4 it is 0.45 (0.39 + 0.06).

 

Even-con calculated HitChance = 0.95 (clamped from 1.07) because HitChance = Clamp(1.33 x Clamp(0.81))

+1 calculated HitChance = 0.944 because HitChance = Clamp(1.33 x Clamp(0.71))

+4 calculated HitChance = 0.60 because HitChance = Clamp(1.33 x Clamp(0.45))

 

How about instead of slotting Kismet, you just take Tactics at a +10 ToHit?

 

Even-con calculated HitChance = 0.95 (clamped from 1.13) because HitChance = Clamp(1.33 x Clamp(0.85))

+1 calculated HitChance = 0.95 (clamped from 1.0) because HitChance = Clamp(1.33 x Clamp(0.75))

+4 calculated HitChance = 0.65 because HitChance = Clamp(1.33 x Clamp(0.49))

 

Ok, what happens if you take Tactics at +10 AND slot Kismet, adding 0.16 to your base ToHit?

 

Even-con calculated HitChance = 0.95 (clamped from 1.21) because HitChance = Clamp(1.33 x Clamp(0.91))

+1 calculated HitChance = 0.95 (clamped from 1.08) because HitChance = Clamp(1.33 x Clamp(0.81))

+4 calculated HitChance = 0.73 because HitChance = Clamp(1.33 x Clamp(0.55))

 

How about Tactics, Kismet, AND a Purple Set Bonus of 0.15 Acc?

 

Even-con calculated HitChance = 0.95 (clamped from 1.35) because HitChance = Clamp(1.48 x Clamp(0.91))

+1 calculated HitChance = 0.95 (clamped from 1.20) because HitChance = Clamp(1.48 x Clamp(0.81))

+4 calculated HitChance = 0.81 because HitChance = Clamp(1.48 x Clamp(0.55))

 

I honestly can't remember what the ED ceiling is on slotting ToHit, but say it's 40%, meaning you could push Tactics to 0.14 and you added Kismet, with the purple...

 

Even-con = .95

+1 = .95

+4 calculated HitChance = 0.87 because HitChance = Clamp(1.48 x Clamp(0.59))

 

Assuming you have maxed-out Tactics and taken Kismet, you would need to push a power's AccMods (slotted Accuracy + Global Accuracy) to 1.62 in order to bring the Clamp to a +4 fight, but that is assuming you aren't being debuffed, their def isn't buffed, and so on.

[Snarky]

After re-looking at this I want the accuracy power from Energy Mastery back lol.  But I cannot fit it on this toon.  I will experiment with a Brute using Energy Mastery Focused Accuracy, leadeership Tactics and Kismet.  Should be a fun way to abuse to-hit lol.  Just need the right concept.

 

Alt Again!

[Doomguide2005]

3 hours ago, Snarky said:

After re-looking at this I want the accuracy power from Energy Mastery back lol.  But I cannot fit it on this toon.  I will experiment with a Brute using Energy Mastery Focused Accuracy, leadeership Tactics and Kismet.  Should be a fun way to abuse to-hit lol.  Just need the right concept.

 

Alt Again!

Best 'abuse' I've come up with is my Cold/Ice/Power defender.  PBU+Tactics+Aim yields a huge, albeit short term, boost to To Hit.  Highly recommended for landing Benumb on Mako post Elude or Paragon Protectors who've gone MoG or Elude.

[DSorrow]

17 hours ago, Sakai said:

Ok so for us non mathy people (mainly me) +accuracy gives you a bigger bang for your buck right?

As a rule of thumb, +ToHit is usually the way to go unless you have very low Accuracy enhancement values. More specifically, the two elements multiply, so in most cases you'll want to increase whatever you have less of which is usually +ToHit because against higher con enemies you'll typically be at around 40-50% base hit chance vs. base 100% Accuracy (or 150%+ after enhancements). 

 

However, +Acc is usually easier to come by, it comes in significantly bigger amounts and it effectively raises your minimum hit chance so the comparisons aren't always trivial, but in my experience every point of +ToHit is typically worth ~3-4 points +Acc when it comes to hit chance.

[Snarky]

since my Dark/Dark Brute has Soul Drain up near Perma (36.5 rech on a 30 sec buff) i am mostly fueling that .  at +6 to-hit (kismet) and +70 accuracy it seems i am doing okay.  Since Soul Drain adds +to-hit i think i can safely move on to solving other prob imaginary problems with this toon.  but the To-hit brute will happen.  maybe a Energy/Willpower

[Doomguide2005]

2 hours ago, Snarky said:

since my Dark/Dark Brute has Soul Drain up near Perma (36.5 rech on a 30 sec buff) i am mostly fueling that .  at +6 to-hit (kismet) and +70 accuracy it seems i am doing okay.  Since Soul Drain adds +to-hit i think i can safely move on to solving other prob imaginary problems with this toon.  but the To-hit brute will happen.  maybe a Energy/Willpower

In Mids the tab, iirc it's been a while since I could check, called exemplar and base effects, there's a place where you can choose your base to hit value.  The default is set to 75% vs +0 foes.  You can change it to whatever value you want.  Mine is typically set to 39%, the value against +4 foes.  That plus the slider for Soul Drain and you can see what your final chance is vs anywhere from 1 foe in range to fully saturated.

[macskull]

On 12/16/2020 at 9:31 AM, Sakai said:

Ok so for us non mathy people (mainly me) +accuracy gives you a bigger bang for your buck right?

Accuracy is easier to come by in large amounts (one even-level accuracy SO boosts your accuracy by 33%) and if you are fighting even-con enemies with no defense buffs or tohit debuffs one acc SO is enough to cap your hit chances without anything else, assuming it's a standard 1.0x accuracy attack. Easiest way to think of it is:

• Accuracy multiplies your chance to hit by a certain factor (i.e. 30% accuracy would result in attacks that hit 30% more often)
• Tohit directly raises your chance to hit by a flat value

Generally speaking tohit is far more powerful than accuracy, but as long as you have even moderate accuracy slotting (usually two SOs worth, or around 60%) and a little bit of tohit you should not have any problems hitting most enemies.

 

On 12/16/2020 at 10:56 AM, tidge said:

I used to think so, but I believe the +ToHit -> +damage for all snipes (in Homecoming) fast or slow as a result of the Snipe changes.

For you and @drbuzzard: before the current fast snipe mechanics, if you had at least 22% extra +tohit snipes were always fast and used the same damage scale as the slow version. The current implementation leaves slow snipes at their old, higher damage scale while fast snipes start out with a lower scale that is affected by tohit bonus, capping at +22% (and -22%, actually... yes, getting debuffed lowers fast snipe damage). If it's working any way other than this (in PvE at least) it's a bug.

[tidge]

53 minutes ago, macskull said:

For you and @drbuzzard: before the current fast snipe mechanics, if you had at least 22% extra +tohit snipes were always fast and used the same damage scale as the slow version. The current implementation leaves slow snipes at their old, higher damage scale while fast snipes start out with a lower scale that is affected by tohit bonus, capping at +22% (and -22%, actually... yes, getting debuffed lowers fast snipe damage). If it's working any way other than this (in PvE at least) it's a bug.

I checked in-game (on a Blaster) with all other +ToHit sources turned off, and a Kismet +ToHit in Maneuvers (as an easy toggle). The +ToHit bonuses mean nothing for +Damage to Slow Snipes, but a +ToHit will increase Fast Snipe damage, as described above.

[roleki]

17 hours ago, Snarky said:

After re-looking at this I want the accuracy power from Energy Mastery back lol.  But I cannot fit it on this toon.  I will experiment with a Brute using Energy Mastery Focused Accuracy, leadeership Tactics and Kismet.  Should be a fun way to abuse to-hit lol.  Just need the right concept.

 

Alt Again!

Focused Accuracy is a weirdo.  +5% raw ToHit, and a +20% global accuracy bonus is nice (plus some added perception and -ToHit resistance) but that 0.78s endurance cost is a bit steep.  If you slotted a couple Cytos and a Gaussian's ToHit/End it drops to ~0.41s, and if you took Physical Perfection and dropped a couple boosted EndMods in it, you can almost get FA for free.   But that's two powers, ~4 slots and about 90M in inf for ~7% ToHit and some other bits of fluff.  Or, you can pay 4M for a Kismet +Acc, and use up one slot in a power you already have.

 

That said... I still take FA/Physical Perfection on my Brutes and Scrappers, because if I don't, every time I miss I'll be disappointed that I haven't done everything I possibly could to hit.