Hurricane Repel

[Doomguide2005]

6 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Not to mention the massive debuff it lays down on an AV

Well it is massive but also heavily resisted, particularly against a +4 end game AVs.  Probably netting you about -3% up to around -6% with a +3 incarnate shift vs a lvl 54 assuming a starting debuff of around -44% (which, iirc, is about what a well enhanced Hurricane is worth for a Controller)

Edited January 15, 2021 by Doomguide2005
Clarity

[arcane]

You can get kicked from a team for using a lot of powers badly. Hurricane only stands out because it requires a tiny bit of thought to use correctly.

[Kid_Gloves]

Adding my voice to the 'no change, please' chorus.

 

Hurricane is a really fun power. I'd hate to see it change.

[plainguy]

On 1/14/2021 at 10:32 PM, Wavicle said:

If you get kicked for using Hurricane either you are using it wrong and deserve to be kicked (or preferably taught how to use it right) or your teammates are jerks and you don’t want to be on that team anyway.

 

 Hurricane is an excellent power as is if you use it effectively. If you scatter groups with it that’s your fault.

 

It doesn’t need to be changed just so people don’t have to learn to use it properly.

You see the irony in this right.

 

Can you point me to the Power Police in this game ? 

Can you point me towards the training demo for Hurricane this game or the original game had ?

 

Again back in the day of 15 years ago this all was great unique concept.  

Game mechanics overall on every game has changed in 15 years..  

Scatter affects ( or effects ) are now usually kept on Big game bosses to disrupt and hamper a team of players, EG make it tougher at least in the beginning of the game for people to learn how to fight a raid type boss. 

 

For example GW2 comes to mind where may world and Raid builds do not have scatter powers in them, whereas WvW and PvP builds do have push and pull powers in them. 

 

I mean really players didn't create this power, NCSoft did..  

Everyone eventually after the  game came out discovered herding. Today herding is common in just about every game.  If you read someone say herd them or we are herding you would know exactly what they meant. 

 

But this power does not herd it scatters. 
I have played hurricane a lot I also ran with one player tormento from repeat offenders and we did a lot of storm teaching on how to use hurricane in holding  mobs into a corner.  We would run around the map pull mobs into a corner.. Then one would stand back turn on Hurricane  while both took hits.. Trading O2 heals..  mobs would be pushed into a corner and the one player would move out of the corner through the others hurricane.  Then take up a position behind and O2 and hurricane a bit off the others center, thus having a double spaced hurricane.  

But regardless of all of this mobs could still spin off the walls along the top of the hurricane if they got to close..  

 

Eventually we would have others try it out once they got the hang of it with us alternating with us. Eventually we had a few stormers doing weekly runs together that knew how to herd.

 

In the end I will repeat I would never want to change the power for all the players..  Thus my thoughts on an IO that could be combined for those wanting the repel removed and just keeping the knock down..  Even if a player has to sacrifice an IO set bonus to just put in an IO that removes repel and nothing fancy as I mentioned would be an option. Thus the max set bonus would be one less then what is slotted because the repel IO would be there.  

 

End result I made my choice to make a slot sacrifice without hurting anyone else's play style in the game. 

 

Mind you I know for a fact that removing repel would allow you to do ANYTHING you wanted now in the game with this power..  There would be no hinderance or gimmicks needed or no Learn to use the power. 

End result if I can't use an in game power as it was designed in the game without pissing off players then there is a flaw in the power design..  Again I don't mean griefing.. 

Again they made and put things into Hurricane to simulate a hurricane, thus the knockdown and repel. 

Maybe herding mobs is not playing the game correctly.  Maybe we are pretending to be superheroes and villains and hurricane does what it is intended to do. 

Maybe they expected a team of 8 to work together but not herd but move around fighting mobs like a group of 8 superheroes taking on bad guys and THEN combining powers against that one AV that they can't really solo alone but need to be together for .. Thus why AV are not Repelled by hurricane. 

Maybe your thought process on this is incorrect from just being ingrained into a herding mentality that is just prevalent in gaming today.. 

 

Again not being a dick but trying to remind people this game is old and many of the common gaming concepts today where not so common back then..  This was the first real superhero game..

You can't beat up the player who just using their powers, just isn't fair. its pretty much imposing the you must herd and clear out a mission as fast as possible to actual playing the game as a superhero/villain.

End result you are now saying Your playstyle is correct and mine isn't because it is not Optimal for your exp/inf per hour ratio. 

 

Not saying my idea is the best, but it is.. 

Create the IO give the player the option that is all. 

[Wavicle]

Well that was a lot of text.

 

In fact, if you are scattering with hurricane then the problem is you not hurricane. People who know how to use hurricane properly in fact do herd with hurricane.

[AngelaBall]

Ohh, soo informative post. Big thx to you man!!

Edited January 22, 2021 by AngelaBall

[Wavicle]

It’s winds around you. There is no realm in which it makes sense for such a power to not move the enemies. It’s the whole concept of the power.

[FrauleinMental]

4 hours ago, plainguy said:

Can you point me towards the training demo for Hurricane this game or the original game had ?

The training demo for any character is the first 49 levels of play.

[Doomguide2005]

Just going to point out that when the PtoD are down an AV is no more immune to Repel than a Boss.  They're only massively protected when the triangles are up.

 

And in the corner scenario keeping them pinned and not slipping by requires movement by the Stormie which is where part of the skill in its use comes into play.  That's probably even more true with the current pulse rate of Repel than back in the day.

 

And last as I mentioned earlier I'm not sure it would, in fact, reduce scatter.  Two things seem to trigger mobs to flee. 1) debuffs and 2) not being able to hit the target.  Hurricane tends to do both those things. You'd have to test it but I suspect they'd be more prone to fleeing without the ability of Repel to push them around.

[PainX]

what if instead of changing powers a new IO was made a KB->KD with -repel giving you a choice between the two imo that has to be better to have options optimaly you could choose wether a power has KB or Repel but in lack of such a huge change that likely is an IO seems like it could be easier to do

[arcane]

11 hours ago, plainguy said:

End result if I can't use an in game power as it was designed in the game without pissing off players then there is a flaw in the power design.. 

I don’t play with any stormies (myself included) that piss off the team with hurricane, so this sounds like a you issue.

[Doomguide2005]

2 hours ago, PainX said:

what if instead of changing powers a new IO was made a KB->KD with -repel giving you a choice between the two imo that has to be better to have options optimaly you could choose wether a power has KB or Repel but in lack of such a huge change that likely is an IO seems like it could be easier to do

The only issue here is kb/kd won't allow the repositioning that makes Hurricane what it is.

 

Edit:  the kd is also only a 5% chance (per foe per pulse) afaik.  Without repel you couldn't push a mob into a corner or back into a patch like FR or back under LS etc.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Doomguide2005

[PainX]

1 hour ago, Doomguide2005 said:

The only issue here is kb/kd won't allow the repositioning that makes Hurricane what it is.

 

Edit:  the kd is also only a 5% chance (per foe per pulse) afaik.  Without repel you couldn't push a mob into a corner or back into a patch like FR or back under LS etc.

no i know this i would be hitting them with around 55% -tohit however oh and -60% range not sure how i'd use that probably find a use for it could help the tanker taunt -range stacking abit

Edited January 21, 2021 by PainX

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, PainX said:

no i know this i would be hitting them with around 55% -tohit however oh and -60% range not sure how i'd use that probably find a use for it could help the tanker taunt -range stacking abit

If they remove the repel, or added an enhancement to remove the repel, they would also lower the Debuff amount. If you don’t believe me, look at Time.

[Wavicle]

Again, if such an enhancement were added to the game, “removes the repel from hurricane”, that enhancement would also cut the minus range and minus to hit debuffs in like half at least.

[plainguy]

16 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Well that was a lot of text.

 

In fact, if you are scattering with hurricane then the problem is you not hurricane. People who know how to use hurricane properly in fact do herd with hurricane.

The player is NOT scattering anything.. The Power is scattering.. They created this power to do that..  
You are basically blaming the tiger for eating someone at the zoo that accidentally entered the cage.. The tiger was just being a tiger.  

You are giving someone a hammer and then complaining they are not using it properly to screw in a screw.. 

If anything I give credit to the game creators they created and simulated a hurricane pretty well with this power for all intent and purposes.. 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 21, 2021 by plainguy

[plainguy]

4 hours ago, arcaneholocaust said:

I don’t play with any stormies (myself included) that piss off the team with hurricane, so this sounds like a you issue.

I know I had a long post but if you read you can see I understand how to work with issues of Hurricane. 

But I have been on teams with first time players that were just excited to have a new power and use it not realizing the amount of scatter.. 

I've been on ITF where players have used hurricane to accidentally put mobs into walls.

I have been on ITF where key mobs guarding those Sybil were knocked in to a wall and we waited around waiting for the mob to come back and then just decided for a reset.. 
I don't know when you started playing I've been playing since the game originally opened. This issue or debate is nothing new.. Just use waybackmachine and look at the original forum post about this. 

 

 

[PainX]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

Again, if such an enhancement were added to the game, “removes the repel from hurricane”, that enhancement would also cut the minus range and minus to hit debuffs in like half at least.

well time's juncture is very strong -24% tohit slotted aint nothing wrong with that on top of a -25% dmg debuff and a 37% slow oh allmost forgot less end use ofc

Edited January 21, 2021 by PainX

[plainguy]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

Again, if such an enhancement were added to the game, “removes the repel from hurricane”, that enhancement would also cut the minus range and minus to hit debuffs in like half at least.

Why ? Where is your math to prove this ? A player is loosing a set bonus for this. I think that is penalty enough. 

But again show me the theory where you feel this is standard SOP.  

I mean you are purporting that there is no benefit to this IO and people should LRN2PLAY Hurricane.  So why would someone requesting to be penalized because they have some difficulty with hurricane for some reason now suffer yet another penalty.. 

Again to have a penalty they must be getting some benefit. 

Are you now saying there is a benefit to this IO ? Sort of contradicts your stance.

Again not being a dick.. Though I know I sound like one on here, but just no other way to put it clearly so sorry if my Verbiage offends..

 

[Wavicle]

10 minutes ago, plainguy said:

The player is NOT scattering anything.. The Power is scattering.. They created this power to do that..  
You are basically blaming the tiger for eating someone at the zoo that accidentally entered the cage.. The tiger was just being a tiger.  
If anything I give credit to the game creators they created and simulated a hurricane pretty well with this power for all intent and purposes.. 

 

You are giving someone a hammer and then complaining they are using it properly to screw in a screw.. 

 

 

You’re doing it wrong. The power can be used to contain enemies in an area. If you’re scattering then you’re doing it wrong.

[plainguy]

24 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

You’re doing it wrong. The power can be used to contain enemies in an area. If you’re scattering then you’re doing it wrong.

 

But the power has an inherit scatter effect with the repel. 

 

How can I be doing it wrong ? 

It is working as intended right ? 

 

Tell me where there is a manual on Hurricane. Is it on the Wiki ?

Do we have some old quotes from the creators that says  Hurricane is used to contain enemies in an area.. 

 

I mean look up Hurricane.. I am pretty sure the last description you will have about a hurricane is it contains things..  Except maybe in its whirlwind before spewing it out the top.. 

 

Again not being a dick..

 

But common sense.. This is Storm powers..  

Lighting storm - creates and cloud and shoots down lightning cause knock down.. Make sense right.. Who wouldn't get knocked on their ass by lightning

Freezing Rain - Slows people down.. Who would have thought that.. 

Thunder Clap  - who would have thought getting hit by a Sonic Boom would possibly stun you.. 

 

I mean do I need to go on ?

How about they intended Hurricane to push mobs back and scatter them around, just like all the other powers in storm summoning are doing what they intended.. 

Maybe they didn't realize because this game was the first of its kind that people would eventually look to herd mobs and clear maps as fast as they can.

 

Listen realistically there are no corners you can completely herd mobs into with Hurricane.. I mean you just can't.. They move around.. get knocked down.. spin off the sides.. ETC.. There is just no real EXACT PERFECT way to keep mobs in one place with hurricane.. It just is not a containment power..  

 

 

 

 

Edited January 21, 2021 by plainguy

[Wavicle]

4 minutes ago, plainguy said:

 

But the power has an inherit scatter effect with the repel. 

 

How can I be doing it wrong ? 

It is working as intended right ? 

 

Tell me where there is a manual on Hurricane. Is it on the Wiki ?

Do we have some old quotes from the creators that says  Hurricane is used to contain enemies in an area.. 

 

I mean look up Hurricane.. I am pretty sure the last description you will have about a hurricane is it contains things..  Except maybe in its whirlwind before spewing it out the top.. 

 

Again not being a dick..

 

But common sense.. This is Storm powers..  

Lighting storm - creates and cloud and shoots down lightning cause knock down.. Make sense right.. Who wouldn't get knocked on their ass by lightning

Freezing Rain - Slows people down.. Who would have thought that.. 

Thunder Clap  - who would have thought getting hit by a Sonic Boom would possibly stun you.. 

 

I mean do I need to go on ?

How about they intended Hurricane to push mobs back and scatter them around, just like all the other powers in storm summoning are doing what they intended.. 

Maybe they didn't realize because this game was the first of its kind that people would eventually look to herd mobs and clear maps as fast as they can.

 

Listen realistically there are not corners you can completely herd mobs into with Hurricane.. I mean you just can't.. They move around.. get knocked down.. spin off the sides.. ETC.. There is just no real EXACT PERFECT way to keep mobs in one place with hurricane.. It just is not a containment power..  

 

 

 

 

So the trick is to keep moving.

 

 They will scatter if you stay in one place unless they’re pinned by walls, yes.

 

 If you move Around them you can keep whole groups contained.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Wavicle

[Wavicle]

Here is the original guide that taught me how to play Storm Summoning:

https://web.archive.org/web/20120905001549/http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=114584

Obviously some things in this guide are out of date, but not the explanations of technique.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Wavicle

[Wavicle]

The repel effect of Hurricane does NOT inherently scatter mobs. The fact you keep repeating that indicates you are using it wrong.

The repel effect pushes mobs away from YOU the caster. So, if you are in the MIDDLE of a group when you use it, then yes it will scatter mobs.

If you use it from ONE SIDE of the group, and even better if you move back and forth on that side, it will push the whole group all in one direction.

[plainguy]

Just now, Wavicle said:

So the trick is to keep moving.

 

 They will scatter if you stay in one place unless they’re pinned by walls, yes.

 

 If you move Around then you can keep whole groups contained.

Oh its a trick..

 

Then you are using this for something it isn't actually intended to do..  EG using a butter knife to screw in a screw because you can't find or are too lazy to find a flat head screwdriver.. 

Look I will NOT debate that hurricane can keep some mobs in place. 

You cannot keep all mobs contained.. You can keep some.. But eventually they resist the hurricane and move into a spot that spins them off the wall behind you..  

 

Again this is NOT a containment power..  That you have the ability to gimmick it as such is great..  

But the description  clearly says this.. 

You can summon a Hurricane. The wind and rain from this massive storm reduce the range and chance to hit of nearby foes. The massive winds of this storm continuously force foes away from you.

 

But hey lets look at some more info on Hurricane and its containment abilities

Effects	Toggle: Point Blank Area of Effect
	Foe -Range, -To-Hit, Repel, Knockback

 

Why would they have knockback in containment power.. Strange..

 

Maybe the enhancements might give us better insight that we might be missing

Enhancements	Reduce Endurance Cost
	Enhance Knockback Distance
	Increase Attack Rate
	Enhance ToHit Debuff
Set Categories	Knockback
	ToHit Debuff

 

Set categories Knockback ? 

Where is the hold sets ?

 

Again dude.. I get what your saying..  I get you can somewhat hold some mobs in place to some degree..  

But NOTHING in this power remotely or closely says this can be done..  Why ? Why haven't the devs today cleared up the description saying it can be used to hold mobs in place but using a gimmick.. 

Why hasn't someone in all these years on the wiki added this tidbit of information about the power in the wiki ?

 

Because you doing something with it that it actually wasn't intended to do.. This is what happens in games.. Players figure stuff out that the devs do not expect..  

 

This is what you are doing but, NOW you are making it as if it is actual game mechanic placed in the game. You are pretty much imposing your interpretation of the power where there is nothing anywhere to support your statement.. 

Yes again Hurricane can hold a few mobs in a corner with repel..  

 

But hurricane was not made for that no matter how much you keep repeating the same line..