Why not just roll a scrapper or tanker?

[twozerofoxtrot]

12 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

If cherry picking for a team was not a problem, then why did Tankers need anything?

 

It seem incredibly self-contradictory to say, "Tankers had no role and so SOMETHING NEEDED TO BE DONE!!!" but when the claim is advanced that Brutes now have no role in which they shine, being inferior tanks and inferior melee damage dealers, to say, "What does it matter...nobody is looking at that."

I actually addressed all these in the post prior. Also let's not be disingenuous with each other, it weakens our own arguments. I'll summarize:

 

- Being picked for a team was not the issue. The issue was that the Tanker was not fun or interesting to play. You could, but you'd be a less-good Brute, and this stood at basically any part of the build spectrum (except perhaps proc monsters? Honestly not sure). My specific example again: if I wanted to tank for a group I didn't use my tanker I used my brute because they did it better.

 

- Brutes are not inferior melee damage dealers. They are clearing faster than tanks. Brutes have higher single target damage as well. Does their damage output match Stalkers and Scrappers? No, but they are also more durable. These are not my original thoughts. I'm only summarizing what I've read from people who have tested and posted results here in this thread. 

 

[Galaxy Brain]

8 minutes ago, tan702 said:

Maybe this is an unfair comparison since FA/DM is really strong on a tanker..

Its more that DM is good and FM is..... not. Try a DM/FA brute instead! 

Edited February 19, 2021 by Galaxy Brain

[Erratic1]

13 minutes ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

I actually addressed all these in the post prior. Also let's not be disingenuous with each other, it weakens our own arguments. I'll summarize:

 

- Being picked for a team was not the issue. The issue was that the Tanker was not fun or interesting to play. You could, but you'd be a less-good Brute, and this stood at basically any part of the build spectrum (except perhaps proc monsters? Honestly not sure). My specific example again: if I wanted to tank for a group I didn't use my tanker I used my brute because they did it better.

 

- Brutes are not inferior melee damage dealers. They are clearing faster than tanks. Brutes have higher single target damage as well. Does their damage output match Stalkers and Scrappers? No, but they are also more durable. These are not my original thoughts. I'm only summarizing what I've read from people who have tested and posted results here in this thread. 

 

Look at what I written. It was not that Brutes were inferior damage dealers it was that Brutes are neither the top damage dealers nor the top survivors. The statement was that if role protection has prompted changes then what role is the Brute supposed to excel at. 

 

I happily grant that  Brutes are fun to play (to me at least). However I do not remember at any point there being a shortage of Tankers either. 

[Galaxy Brain]

3 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

Look at what I written. It was not that Brutes were inferior damage dealers it was that Brutes are neither the top damage dealers nor the top survivors. The statement was that if role protection has prompted changes then what role is the Brute supposed to excel at. 

 

I happily grant that  Brutes are fun to play (to me at least). However I do not remember at any point there being a shortage of Tankers either. 

Honestly, its a preference point for what feels more fun to you, much like how you could pick War Mace or Claws for similar overall performance, but one may feel better for you that day.

 

A few other ATs are like this too but don't have this battle. Why no Stalker vs Scrapper debate? Dominator vs Controller for CC? Corr vs Def? Multiple ATs have a lot of overlap with many being essentially the same with some dials tweaked back and forth. Its part of the fun!

[Erratic1]

2 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Honestly, its a preference point for what feels more fun to you, much like how you could pick War Mace or Claws for similar overall performance, but one may feel better for you that day.

 

A few other ATs are like this too but don't have this battle. Why no Stalker vs Scrapper debate? Dominator vs Controller for CC? Corr vs Def? Multiple ATs have a lot of overlap with many being essentially the same with some dials tweaked back and forth. Its part of the fun!

I believe there is a thread up currently questioning Dominators vs Contrllers.

 

Corruptors and Defenders act sufficiently differently--one being a stronger buffer the other being a stronger damage dealer. There is no Defenders get to have extra area on their attacks to fix their solo experience, they were given extra damage only when they were alone and I noted this upthread. (Would it have been fine for Tankers to only get their extra area when they are playing solo?)  Otherwise Defenders and Corruptors are so alike I suspect they are much more in the play the favor you like mode.

 

Stalkers and Scrappers oddly, to my mind anyway, are different enough. Stalkers don't appeal to me near so much as Scrappers (weird I know). 

 

But yeah, I play both Tankers and Scrappers and enjoy them both for their differences mostly.

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Its more that DM is good and FM is..... not. Try a DM/FA brute instead! 

Yeah, My Dark Melee / Fire Armor Brute is the most insane damage dealing machine I have.  (for an armored char)  He...it ain't right.  His only real issue (since I fully incarnated him and i/o'd him for damage, with a nod to armor and ignored END issues) is he has to maintain his blue with the two PbAoE end rec powers.  And i mean watch it like a bomb sight.  But other than that he just sits and cleans anything that dares to come near him.  He is just vicious.  

[Riverdusk]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Honestly, its a preference point for what feels more fun to you, much like how you could pick War Mace or Claws for similar overall performance, but one may feel better for you that day.

 

A few other ATs are like this too but don't have this battle. Why no Stalker vs Scrapper debate? Dominator vs Controller for CC? Corr vs Def? Multiple ATs have a lot of overlap with many being essentially the same with some dials tweaked back and forth. Its part of the fun!

I've actually seen quite a few defender vs. corruptor debates.  Most boiling down to defenders are generally better because solo with vigilance and better buff/debuff they often do the same or even better damage than a corruptor and on a team their better buffs/debuffs add more to a team.   That on top of defenders can usually better fit in and leverage damage procs.

 

Surprised I don't see more talk of procs in the tanker vs. brute debate actually.   

 

 

 

 

[BLVD]

This idea is pretty out of left field, but could a solution to this whole debate be adding AT-specific bonuses to Call to Justice to make villain AT's feel more like hero AT's for a period of time? For example, if a Brute activates Call to Justice, they get the same AoE bonuses tanks have. Or if a corrupter uses it, they get buff/debuff bonuses of defenders? Frenzy gives Brutes and Dominators 100% of their red side bonuses, so I would think that Call to Justice should give its own unique bonus rather than a flat damage buff.

 

I think the root of this whole issue is Going Rogue. Tankers/Scrappers were never meant to be on the same team as Brutes/Stalkers, so one side is probably going to have an advantage in the current state of the game. But maybe that line can be blurred if we start experimenting with exchanging AT bonuses between AT's. 

[Myrmidon]

Well, the “Brutes Sux!!!11!!” threads have shown up much sooner than I anticipated...

 

 

The issue is simple: nerf damage procs. You’re welcome.

[Apparition]

8 hours ago, Riverdusk said:

I've actually seen quite a few defender vs. corruptor debates.  Most boiling down to defenders are generally better because solo with vigilance and better buff/debuff they often do the same or even better damage than a corruptor and on a team their better buffs/debuffs add more to a team.   That on top of defenders can usually better fit in and leverage damage procs.

 

Surprised I don't see more talk of procs in the tanker vs. brute debate actually.   

 

 

 

 

 

Yep.  And in threads where people are asking for advice on Corruptors, you'll usually find someone chiming in with "Make a Defender instead, they're better!  Damage procs!"

 

Yes, damage procs are a substantially large part of the problem and need to be nerfed.

[Apparition]

18 minutes ago, tan702 said:

This idea is pretty out of left field, but could a solution to this whole debate be adding AT-specific bonuses to Call to Justice to make villain AT's feel more like hero AT's for a period of time? For example, if a Brute activates Call to Justice, they get the same AoE bonuses tanks have. Or if a corrupter uses it, they get buff/debuff bonuses of defenders? Frenzy gives Brutes and Dominators 100% of their red side bonuses, so I would think that Call to Justice should give its own unique bonus rather than a flat damage buff.

 

I think the root of this whole issue is Going Rogue. Tankers/Scrappers were never meant to be on the same team as Brutes/Stalkers, so one side is probably going to have an advantage in the current state of the game. But maybe that line can be blurred if we start experimenting with exchanging AT bonuses between AT's. 

 

That wouldn't work as not everyone plays blue side. :P  I play red side exclusively.

[oldskool]

This has been a fascinating read so far.  

So a lot AT debates do center around nuance arguments.  Defenders vs Corrs... whom has the best value for the investment?  Do you value more personal damage in solo or groups?  Do you value the base numbers of having a support set as a primary vs secondary?  Are the differences of some support sets great enough to matter for a given playstyle?  

Rinse and repeat that for any AT you want.  

I know for me personally, I prefer the Tanker post change.  However, I don't abuse procs on the AT.  So my Tankers do a bit less damage than the Brute version would, but it feels like it contributes more than it once did.  This isn't to say the Brute has no role.  I think that mindset is a bit of trap depending on how you view roles in a game like this.  Then again I tend to feel that roles in this game are just meaningless constructs and holdovers from MMORPG designs that have little weight here. 

I can understand why they seem so important (roles that is), but in real play it just feels pointless.  I say this as a point of strength for CoX and not as a point of fault.  It makes me feel like I play anything in this game and contribute in some fashion.  I love that.  It keeps me playing.  It keeps me talking about it here.  There are few games that have managed to keep me this invested this long.    

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, oldskool said:

I love that.  It keeps me playing.  It keeps me talking about it here.  There are few games that have managed to keep me this invested this long.    

Truth.

[BLVD]

44 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

That wouldn't work as not everyone plays blue side. 😛 I play red side exclusively.

I was thinking it could work both ways. If you took a tanker from blue side to red side, they could use Frenzy to get a bonus similar to Fury. Just seems odd that only stalkers, brutes, and dominators get an AT-specific bonus.

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, Myrmidon said:

Well, the “Brutes Sux!!!11!!” threads have shown up much sooner than I anticipated...

 

 

The issue is simple: nerf damage procs. You’re welcome.

and if we nerf Regen along with that I think everything will swing back into alignment.

[Myrmidon]

7 minutes ago, Snarky said:

and if we nerf Regen along with that I think everything will swing back into alignment.

*Laughs in Willpower*

[oldskool]

13 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

*Laughs in Willpower*

*Bio Armor has entered the chat*

[Infinitum]

34 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

*Laughs in Willpower*

[Myrmidon]

24 minutes ago, oldskool said:

*Bio Armor has entered the chat*

Willpower - Steve Austin
Bio Armor - Maskatron

 

[oldskool]

44 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

Willpower - Steve Austin
Bio Armor - Maskatron

 

Wow... just wow... 

[Snarky]

2 hours ago, tan702 said:

I was thinking it could work both ways. If you took a tanker from blue side to red side, they could use Frenzy to get a bonus similar to Fury. Just seems odd that only stalkers, brutes, and dominators get an AT-specific bonus.

I love Redside.  Seriously I just soled every single contact and story arc Redside on my main.  even side missions.

 

As a Rogue.  Because Being a Villain means almost no teaming (comparable to Blue or 'grey' alignments)  So yes, I enjoy soloing and completing arcs.  But I do want to team

 

None.  NONE. of my characters have been Villain since Rogue became available.  And I run mostly Brutes and some Doms.  Yes, I look at the alignment power.  And growl every F-ing time someone brings it up.  Look, you can have cookies!  Go play solo.  Eat your F-ing cookie and shut up.

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, oldskool said:

Wow... just wow... 

Shouldn't that be:

 

 

Edited February 19, 2021 by Erratic1
Fixed image a bit

[Myrmidon]

When HC first released The Snap, I was firmly in the camp that there was no reason to ever play a Tanker if a Brute exists.
 

The following are the numbers of each melee AT that I posses both Pre and Post-Page 4:

 

Tanker:  Pre-1 (only to run at Tanker Tuesday), Post-9 (including a Fiery Melee retired until that set gets an update)

 

Brute: Pre-9, Post-6 (including an Elec/Shield retiree and two converted into Tankers).

 

Stalker: Pre-2, Post-4

 

Scrapper: Pre-2, Post-2 (including a Dark/Dark that was my very first character and never made it to 50 before HC and a Katana/WP for my Willpower complete set).

 

 

It looks like it’s “why roll a Scrapper” from my side of the spectrum.😁

Edited February 20, 2021 by Myrmidon

[BLVD]

31 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

When HC first released The Snap, I was firmly in the camp that there was no reason to ever play a Tanker if a Brute exists.
 

The following are the numbers of each melee AT that I posses both Pre and Post-Page 4:

 

Tanker:  Pre-1 (only to run at Tanker Tuesday), Post-9 (including a Fiery Melee retired until that set gets an update)

 

Brute: Pre-9, Post-6 (including an Elec/Shield retiree and two converted into Tankers).

 

Stalker: Pre-2, Post-4

 

Scrapper: Pre-2, Post-2 (including a Dark/Dark that was my very first character and never made it to 50 before HC and a Katana/WP for my Willpower complete set).

 

 

It looks like it’s “why roll a Scrapper” my side of the spectrum.😁

Is there a place that Homecoming shares this kind of information? Like the number of max-level characters and information like date_created and archetype? Would be cool to see the trends of AT popularity as updates are made. My scrapper-to-tanker ratio pretty much flipped once the tank buffs came around and TW was reworked.

Edited February 19, 2021 by tan702

[oldskool]

2 hours ago, tan702 said:

Is there a place that Homecoming shares this kind of information? Like the number of max-level characters and information like date_created and archetype? Would be cool to see the trends of AT popularity as updates are made. My scrapper-to-tanker ratio pretty much flipped once the tank buffs came around and TW was reworked.

Well there is a thread that hasn't been updated in almost a year.  I wouldn't be too surprised if the Brute numbers are still disproportionately high.  I don't think many players immediately abandoned their farming Brutes (Fiery Aura is popular.  It's good right? 😀)


https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/16094-homecoming-statistics-march-2020/