Why not just roll a scrapper or tanker?

[Hjarki]

31 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

"What is already known" is the problem we're facing. I already know that tanks were overbuffed. The problem is all those demanding proof (as they should) of my claims. Using a static, repeatable mission, coupled with a difficulty that can lead to failure, properly timed and averaged out amongst various combinations, will provide us with a decent chunk of information, one way or the other.

When you run an experiment, it's crucial to isolate the factors under test while holding the other factors constant. The problem with a 'realistic' test such as the repeatable mission is that it doesn't do this - it conflates being able to chase down a single mob with fighting an AV/GM with fighting a large spawn.

 

Ultimately, the goal is to understand the various 'X factors' - not merely toss them all in a pile where you can't differentiate them.

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

When you run an experiment, it's crucial to isolate the factors under test while holding the other factors constant. The problem with a 'realistic' test such as the repeatable mission is that it doesn't do this - it conflates being able to chase down a single mob with fighting an AV/GM with fighting a large spawn.

 

Ultimately, the goal is to understand the various 'X factors' - not merely toss them all in a pile where you can't differentiate them.

There are no AVs and GMs in this test. If we want to test out single target DPS, that's what pylons are for.

 

What I'm attempting to determine is whether tanks on the whole were overbuffed for whatever is "normal" gameplay. And while I seek out AVs and soloing TFs, I've been repeatedly told that ain't "normal" and I'm an "edge case."

 

So what would your test be to determine the above?

[Galaxy Brain]

6 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

When you run an experiment, it's crucial to isolate the factors under test while holding the other factors constant. The problem with a 'realistic' test such as the repeatable mission is that it doesn't do this - it conflates being able to chase down a single mob with fighting an AV/GM with fighting a large spawn.

But, chasing stuff down / maneuvering through different spots is much much much much much more common than fighting an AV no? This all depends on what the actual question you wanted answered is, if it is "General Gameplay" then yeah.... AV-Beatdown only with nothing else would not reflect that. 

 

6 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

Ultimately, the goal is to understand the various 'X factors' - not merely toss them all in a pile where you can't differentiate them.

Which is where the AE can come in by allowing for varied X factors to play in a repeatable manner. The mission sim has an elite boss room along with two guaranteed bosses you need to hunt down which are meant to test ST, the general mobbing is meant to test AoE, and the enemies are just dangerous enough to where they can get licks in or even cause defeats if you do not pay attention can test mitigation, though it's origins as an offense test skews that side a bit.

 

If you were to say, pit an EM/Somethin designed to nuke Single targets up against a strictly AoE or Tanking test then yeah, it'd be a bad time. Likewise a farmer vs an AV. But neither of those specialized tests reflect the "average" gameplay in CoH (hopping mission to mission) unless you are building for very specific content anyways. So it begs the question of what exactly we are testing for?

[Galaxy Brain]

27 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

soloing TFs, I've been repeatedly told that ain't "normal" and I'm an "edge case."

Soloing a TF may actually be on the Money since the string of missions usually hit all the standard tropes you see in rando story arcs/etc, but it gets tricky when it comes to the odd X factors in TFs like travel time, hunts, special objectives, etc. A mission that *emulates* all the stuff in a TF you'd regularly judge on would be better.

Edited February 8, 2021 by Galaxy Brain

[Infinitum]

29 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

And while I seek out AVs and soloing TFs, I've been repeatedly told that ain't "normal" and I'm an "edge case."

Soloing TFs - I wouldnt call that normal but Bosses EBs and AVs are what would better illustrate the brutes dmg potential as well as any survival differentials that may exist between tanker and brute.  I absolutely think those should be a part of any tests performed.

 

A lot is being made of tanker dmg potential with AOE and what comes to my mind is my shield Elec.

 

With LR SC and TS it practically kills anything but a few lieutennants and bosses - but the boss fight AV fight and EB fight is significantly slower than a brute, scrapper, or stalker similarly built.

 

Its simple to account why - minion HP is lower by design as it should be - so it doesnt matter if the tanker is putting out 500 dmg vs the brutes dmg if its 800 - if the minions HP is 400 they are dropped the same way but more of them on the tanker side - where the brute scrapper or stalker pulls away is that same aoe potential is also hitting lieutenants and bosses softening them up so eventually the brute pulls ahead of the tanker by dmg output because its done way more dmg to the boss class or higher in the same mob.

Edited February 8, 2021 by Infinitum

[Infinitum]

14 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Soloing a TF may actually be on the Money since the string of missions usually hit all the standard tropes you see in rando story arcs/etc, but it gets tricky when it comes to the odd X factors in TFs like travel time, hunts, special objectives, etc. A mission that *emulates* all the stuff in a TF you'd regularly judge on would be better.

Is there anything high level like the yin - that would be a perfect test but its exemplared down.

 

Maybe the Maria Jenkins Infernal mission?  It has an AV and Object at the end that multi spawns over and over again.

[Galaxy Brain]

2 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Is there anything high level like the yin - that would be a perfect test but its exemplared down.

 

Maybe the Maria Jenkins Infernal mission?  It has an AV and Object at the end that multi spawns over and over again.

the other part here is that aside from infenal cus Axe, it's almost the same as a fire farm 😛

[Bill Z Bubba]

18 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

oloing TFs - I wouldnt call that normal but Bosses EBs and AVs are what would better illustrate the brutes dmg potential as well as any survival differentials that may exist between tanker and brute.  I absolutely think those should be a part of any tests performed.

They only demonstrate the brute's single target damage superiority.

 

19 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

With LR SC and TS it practically kills anything but a few lieutennants and bosses - but the boss fight AV fight and EB fight is significantly slower than a brute, scrapper, or stalker similarly built.

When they're available to use, sure. But with something like shield charge, you're lucky to have enough recharge in it to use once per spawn.

 

21 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Its simple to account why - minion HP is lower by design as it should be - so it doesnt matter if the tanker is putting out 500 dmg vs the brutes dmg if its 800 - if the minions HP is 400 they are dropped the same way but more of them on the tanker side - where the brute scrapper or stalker pulls away is that same aoe potential is also hitting lieutenants and bosses softening them up so eventually the brute pulls ahead of the tanker by dmg output because its done way more dmg to the boss class or higher in the same mob.

And this is the crux of it all and why I think utilizing a repeatable mission with 2 bosses per spawn is the way to go. And testing it at +4/x8 (or whatever diff is survivable) with basic IOs not only gives us those bosses but makes it far less likely that we're just slaughtering all the minions with a single AoE.

[Infinitum]

38 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

They only demonstrate the brute's single target damage superiority.

That is a valid feature though - I kinda equate Brute/Stalker more leaning ST and Tanker/Scrapper more leaning AOE.

 

42 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

When they're available to use, sure. But with something like shield charge, you're lucky to have enough recharge in it to use once per spawn.

Well thats my point - you need to maximize all of those to wipe the mobs because if any are left over the ST capability falls off where the brute, scrapper, or stalker version will keep on powering through - but its noticeable once you fire that broadside the single target falls flat.  Its similar with any tanker vs Brute vs stalker vs scrapper set - its a noticeable difference once you get to single target - which is a valid part of the game.

 

45 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

And this is the crux of it all and why I think utilizing a repeatable mission with 2 bosses per spawn is the way to go. And testing it at +4/x8 (or whatever diff is survivable) with basic IOs not only gives us those bosses but makes it far less likely that we're just slaughtering all the minions with a single AoE.

I agree and would even throw in some EBs.

[Galaxy Brain]

@Bill Z Bubba, @Infinitum

 

So, I can tweak the mission sim to be a bit more.... Bruteish if need be. 

 

Criteria:

Enemies need to have a bit more bite to them to showcase raw durability as a factor when we are not trying to just isolate the attack set (as done with other runs)

Enemies need to have more powerful ST targets to chew on offensively whether that be an added EB / boss fights / just make em a scootch tougher with armor powers on the whole for science?

Edited February 8, 2021 by Galaxy Brain

[Bill Z Bubba]

43 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

@Bill Z Bubba, @Infinitum

 

So, I can tweak the mission sim to be a bit more.... Bruteish if need be. 

 

Criteria:

Enemies need to have a bit more bite to them to showcase raw durability as a factor when we are not trying to just isolate the attack set (as done with other runs)

Enemies need to have more powerful ST targets to chew on offensively whether that be an added EB / boss fights / just make em a scootch tougher with armor powers on the whole for science?

Sounds like a plan.

[Galaxy Brain]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Sounds like a plan.

 

On Brainstorm, the mission isn't really that "Brutal" but should be more dangerous at least with a new enemy group (I used them for testing the damage spread in-game). Also includes 2 more boss fights. If it is still too easy to survive to where both Brute and Tank have 0 threat, I can add in some cheats for the enemies.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Ok guys and gals, I'm just gonna recant. Tanks are not clearing missions faster than brutes. I was mistaken, mea culpa, my bad.

 

That said, tanks were still grossly overbuffed, are putting out far too much damage for being a damage secondary archetype, their speed at clearing maps is still too close to brutes for all the extra mitigation they have and I'm not seeing any kind of balance there. But these are opinions.

 

And facts are facts. My statement that I was seeing tanks clear maps faster because of the added AoE is not holding up to my scrutiny and testing. Even my claws/sr brute is faster on average than my sr/claws tank so I'm either misremembering what I was doing on beta before the changes went live, or something else is amiss.

 

Either way, I was wrong.

 

Edit: And the brutes are still only 30 seconds faster than the tanks on pylon times. That seems ludicrous to me.

Edited February 9, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Erratic1]

11 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Ok guys and gals, I'm just gonna recant. Tanks are not clearing missions faster than brutes. I was mistaken, mea culpa, my bad.

 

That said, tanks were still grossly overbuffed, are putting out far too much damage for being a damage secondary archetype, their speed at clearing maps is still too close to brutes for all the extra mitigation they have and I'm not seeing any kind of balance there. But these are opinions.

 

And facts are facts. My statement that I was seeing tanks clear maps faster because of the added AoE is not holding up to my scrutiny and testing. Even my claws/sr brute is faster on average than my sr/claws tank so I'm either misremembering what I was doing on beta before the changes went live, or something else is amiss.

 

Either way, I was wrong.

 

I am curious why the opinion that Tanks are too close if (a) both ATs are surviving and (b) Tankers are coming in behind Brutes in clearing? Yes, there is extra mitigation on the Tanker side, but what does that mean except in situations where the Brute would not survive but the Tanker does?

 

Do you have any numbers you would care to share on the performance differences?

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, Erratic1 said:

Yes, there is extra mitigation on the Tanker side, but what does that mean except in situations where the Brute would not survive but the Tanker does?

Nothing. It means absolutely nothing except that the tank survives when the brute doesn't. And, honestly, unless pulling stupid tricks like Werner Rules ITFs, it's just not going to matter one way or the other.

 

Then again, in "normal" game play, might as well bring anything because we're all stupidly OP at this point. Even I have vastly more squishies in my stable than back before the snap for no other reason but that I can buy mez protection and I'm rich so why not?

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

I am curious why the opinion that Tanks are too close if (a) both ATs are surviving and (b) Tankers are coming in behind Brutes in clearing?

Sorry, forgot this part. I am a junkie for numerical balance. It's why I felt pushed to raise the question in the first place. But I get now that A: it doesn't really matter and B: I'm way outvoted. So I'll see myself out of room for balance discussions and instead just enjoy that I can still play at all.

[Erratic1]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Sorry, forgot this part. I am a junkie for numerical balance. It's why I felt pushed to raise the question in the first place. But I get now that A: it doesn't really matter and B: I'm way outvoted. So I'll see myself out of room for balance discussions and instead just enjoy that I can still play at all.

Thx for taking the time to do the actual work.

[UltraAlt]

On 2/2/2021 at 6:01 PM, Myrmidon said:

So, we rework Rage in Super Strength and just tell the Rage junkies to roll a Brute instead.

 

Ultra, you’re a genius!

Yeah, I know rage works like that, but I do think the Hulk is more Brute than Tank.

 

I switch characters/power sets/archetypes so much and play some DCUO on the side, so things do get a little sloppy in my brain.

I couldn't figure out why a friend kept telling me they were rushing because of their rage and I was remembering that as a Brute inherent.

 

When the game first started, here weren't Brutes, so ... yeah ...

 

I don't number crunch but I had assumed that the Brutes rushing to keep their inherent up made them do more damage to any like advantage on a tank.

 

The Hulk isn't really concerned about what he is going to encounter. It's just something more to smash until there is nothing more to smash or something or other stops his ...

Edited February 9, 2021 by UltraAlt

[Galaxy Brain]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Nothing. It means absolutely nothing except that the tank survives when the brute doesn't. And, honestly, unless pulling stupid tricks like Werner Rules ITFs, it's just not going to matter one way or the other.

 

Then again, in "normal" game play, might as well bring anything because we're all stupidly OP at this point. Even I have vastly more squishies in my stable than back before the snap for no other reason but that I can buy mez protection and I'm rich so why not?

I guess it depends though, what instances does Tank Survivability shine? At this point could it be said they are roughly equal but divided by player preference/style?

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, Galaxy Brain said:

I guess it depends though, what instances does Tank Survivability shine? At this point could it be said they are roughly equal but divided by player preference/style?

Unsure. I don't think any of my brutes can handle a Werner Rules ITF. But I also can't say I've built one specifically for the task.

[Infinitum]

3 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I guess it depends though, what instances does Tank Survivability shine? At this point could it be said they are roughly equal but divided by player preference/style?

At +4/8 my EM Invul Brute cleared the Galaxy Brain Silly Simulator in 21.05

 

The tanker did it in 28.55

 

That was also with no incarnates slotted.

 

Some notes from the experience.

 

1. I think this would be a good testbed for how to build mobs of future content because it stressed both characters a bit.

 

2. I could probably refine the tanker time by at lease a minute or two - the brute by maybe a minute - I only ran it once because of the time investment involved.

 

3. Both ATs struggled with endurance - I had to turn off tough weave and focused accuracy on the tanker and focused accuracy on the brute.

 

4. Neither AT had bonesmasher or energy punch - if either had bonesmasher it would favor the brute more.

 

5. The tanker did clear out the trash faster than the brute, but some noteworthy observations - once the tanker got to the bosses it was mind numbingly slooow. The brute took out the bosses in 4-6 hits the tanker 8-12. Lieutenants brute - 2-3 hits tanker 4-6 hits.  That's what ate up the time for the tanker boss and above fights are no their forte.

 

6. Neither had much risk of falling - but I did have to use dull pain a few more times on the brute.

 

Conclusions from my first test - I think This result of the brute being about 35% better is a bit too high I think once I run it more it will end up around 20-25% in favor of the brute - which ultimately is where I think it should be.

 

I think this points to tankers not being overbuffed - because my gah if they were nerfed it would remove this one spot of AOE minion killer they have - its a niche spot uniquely theirs at the moment where the brute is a harsh dmg caster that can do great aoe but excels at single target.

 

I'm going to run the test with an invul scrapper amd stalkers also just to see where that puts them.

Edited February 10, 2021 by Infinitum

[Rokkeb]

Because scrappers don't get stone melee. 

I do have tankers, but scrapper is my favorite AT. I was trying to build a new scrapper I hadn't done before that looked fun and interesting and was coming up short, hopped over to brute and saw Stone melee and thought "hey, I need to try that!"

[Haijinx]

On 2/8/2021 at 2:03 PM, Bill Z Bubba said:

They only demonstrate the brute's single target damage superiority.

 

So here's a question concerning Energy Melee for you and Galaxy  

 

You said the Scrapper's performance is a little less than hoped due to the reduced crits for the top attacks 

 

Presumably the Brute can gain a little ground there.   So how does Brute Energy Melee compare to Scrapper Energy Melee? 

[Snarky]

I am starting to cram Rune of Protection on my Brute builds.  (which are 90% heavy armor builds to begin with) and this is giving a significant and noticeable survival improvement.  At the cost (or benefit!) of tightening up the builds.  

 

At a certain point the Tanker just does not survive ANY better than the Brute.  Because being up is being up.  My Dark/Dark Brute just got smacked down in MoUG Trial striking out ahead.  ...Then Soul Transfer just wrecked the mobs standing around me and I slapped my 15 toggles back on (may be exaggerating, not by much...) and went about my day.  He so very rarely drops I was a little shocked.

 

The Tanker does do better on Taunting.  That is not in doubt.  They are a custom designed Melee Controller with one trick that works like...magic.  Ever had your toon taunted?  Yeah, Tanks do that to everything.  Mobs got no choice.  My Tanks take Taunt, and spam it.  My Brutes do not have Taunt.

 

Scrappers (in general) do more Damage than Brutes.  I do not like the random nature of crits.  I prefer steamrolling into a group and letting Fury clean house.  The sets I choose to run on Brutes favor that style.  I love Dark, which I think is better on a Brute.  Due to trying to saturate Soul Drain.  In the above example A Dark/Dark Scrapper would have been struggling even harder than my Dark/Dark Brute in the MoUG, for how much more damage?

 

It does come down to taste, and sometimes powersets.  Certain power sets I am sure work much better on a Tank (AoE) or a Scrapper (Crit friendly) but in general I just like the general sturdy hard hitting Brute.

 

Why are we still talking about the same points 12 pages in? lol.  o, right, Brutes....

 

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Why are we still talking about the same points 12 pages in? lol.  o, right, Brutes....

Anger leads to the dark side?