"The Game is not Balanced around IO's"..... should it be?

[Parabola]

13 minutes ago, arcaneholocaust said:

Ok so you’re focused on not being needed. Considering 99.99% (leaving some exceptions on the table like maybe a hami tanker) of players are not specifically needed and have not been for at least 10 years now, this is something I have simply come to accept. Considering the mobs are dying at a pleasing pace, I’m not sure there’s a lot to complain about.

 

One thing’s for sure though, I certainly wouldn’t consider your character obsolete since defining obsolete as not being absolutely essential to the team’s success would render all characters in the game obsolete, kind of defeating the point of talking about obsolescence in the first place.

I feel there is a difference between 'no specific AT or role is required' and 'any extra warm body is simply superfluous'. I don't think anyone is asking for the kind of gameplay where certain AT's are required or you can't succeed, that crap belongs in other games. But that isn't what we are talking about here. If the enemies are being defeated so quickly you can't use the majority of your powers that isn't what I'd call satisfying gameplay. There has to be some middle ground between rigid trinity gameplay and basically doorsitting unless you are launching nukes.

[Haijinx]

2 hours ago, arcaneholocaust said:

That doesn’t tell me why you think such a thing. How are you defining power gamer vs casual?

As an example before I found out about homecoming I was playing the Anarchy Online nostalgia progression server.  We were all basically casual there too.

 

For my weapons to level from 125 to 155 basically, I had to camp a  boss camp with guildies for over 12 hours. 

 

That is casual in AO to get just your weapons for less than a week of leveling.  Ignoring armor, implants and so on you also needed.

Edited February 26, 2021 by Haijinx

[arcane]

6 minutes ago, parabola said:

I feel there is a difference between 'no specific AT or role is required' and 'any extra warm body is simply superfluous'. I don't think anyone is asking for the kind of gameplay where certain AT's are required or you can't succeed, that crap belongs in other games. But that isn't what we are talking about here. If the enemies are being defeated so quickly you can't use the majority of your powers that isn't what I'd call satisfying gameplay. There has to be some middle ground between rigid trinity gameplay and basically doorsitting unless you are launching nukes.

Two solutions I use when on speed runs that limit meaningful fights: (1) get to the mob earlier or (2) go fight an additional mob yourself. On ITF mission one I just stealth to the back sybil room so I can have some fun while the others speed through the first several sybils.

[Sovera]

2 hours ago, QuiJon said:

No that is not what i said. In my example that dominator is maybe vet level 70ish. He is perma dom'd and capable of farming +4/8. He is not a gimped character. What i am saying is that i hit Seed of Confusion and 2 seconds later that mob is dead. I dont hit seeds of confusion and 2 seconds later that mob is still dead. The make up of the rest of the team doesnt require me to really even be there. 

 

Everyone wants to feel like they have a role to play. Like there is a reason they are present on the team. Not feeling that way doesnt mean you created a gimp character, it means that the game is at a point when 3-4 players can now do what used to be difficult for a team of 8 fully developed character. Hell think how important a rad defender used to be. I play with one now that says he barely ever gets a chance to get toggles up to even effect the mobs with them now. 

 

And if that is just the new reality then i guess whatever. But then maybe we need to look at the way some powers work. It is not fun spending all day just toggling on the same powers to have a mob be dead before the animation finishes. So maybe if we are not going to find a way to up the challenge we at least need to look at things like animation times or such so everyone feels there is a point to them being there. 

This is not new to now. Back when I first started in Issue 6 or 7 I remember trying a Rad defender and berating team members for killing my toggles. It did not take long to realize my toggles were useless when everything was dying so fast.

 

A Rad defender's debuffs are for tough enemies. Enemies we find out in the streets if sweeping are not tough enemies.

[Galaxy Brain]

Just now, Sovera said:

A Rad defender's debuffs are for tough enemies. Enemies we find out in the streets if sweeping are not tough enemies.

Problem is,  missions are 99% the same enemies you'd find sweeping 😕 

[Sovera]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

As an example before I found out about homecoming I was playing the Anarchy Online nostalgia progression server.  We were all basically casual there too.

 

For my weapons to level from 125 to 155 basically, I had to camp a  boss camp with guildies for over 12 hours. 

 

That is casual in AO to get just your weapons for less than a week of leveling.  Ignoring armor, implants and so on you also needed.

That's not casual VS hard. It's casual VS grindy. Grinding for 12 hours is not hard, it's just boring.

 

Young me who spent whole week-ends doing Mephisto runs in D2 would have been fine with it I guess.

 

 

4 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Problem is,  missions are 99% the same enemies you'd find sweeping 😕 

Yeah, we had this talk a few posts back. Obviously this game design is great to feel powerful but has the flaws that normal mobs who are barely a threat against one person will evaporate when facing eight.

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

That's not casual VS hard. It's casual VS grindy. Grinding for 12 hours is not hard, it's just boring.

 

Young me who spent whole week-ends doing Mephisto runs in D2 would have been fine with it I guess.

 

 

Yeah, we had this talk a few posts back. Obviously this game design is great to feel powerful but has the flaws that normal mobs who are barely a threat against one person will evaporate when facing eight.

Well sure.  Its boring and grindy.

 

But so would be farming AE with a Rad/Fire Brute or whatever.  

 

Hardcore players do most of the same stuff as casual players, just spend a lot more time doing it.  Then maybe add in lolpvp. 

 

People in Homecoming are generally older, with jobs and so on.  They don't have WOW raid addicts kind of playtime.

 

Not that there are any real raids in this game or any real need to spend tons of time.  

 

Some of these self described casuals who avoid IOs probably play more than I do during the week.  

 

 

[oedipus_tex]

Before I found out level shifts applied to Dark Astoria, I ran that content on a 50+1 character leading an 8 player team and found it fairly satisfying. The missions were neither too hard nor too easy. 

After I found out I can run at as a 50+3 I lost interest. If you recruit members for that team who is level 49 or less, you end up fighting them as +1 to you (with rewards of a +4) while everyone else is fighting +5 enemies. One player can shred the map while everyone else follows behind or door sits. Hard pass. Really disappointing too because most of that content is excellent.


The thing about this discussion is I played the game before the incarnate content existed. It was not a crushingly hard game. It was also supposedly "balanced against SOs." But the game was better IMO. I was never a soloist on live. In CoX 2021 (not just on Homecoming) after 50 I am almost a pure soloist unless running radios for lowbies. The team game isn't that much fun. This isn't a problem Homecoming created, they inherited it from the OG devs and how the Resurrection team interpreted the pay to win items from the cash market. But its the situation none-the-less.

Edited February 27, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[zenblack]

I think it would be a great move to set the level cap of Dark Astoria to 50+1 and yet keep their improved level. It would turn it into an appropriate end game zone. While this wouldn't change the balance/challenge issue that is inherent in the game, it would be a step towards end game content playing as if you a a powerful hero/villain.

[Hew]

18 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

If you recruit members for that team who is level 49 or less, you end up fighting them as +1 to you (with rewards of a +4) while everyone else is fighting +5 enemies. One player can shred the map while everyone else follows behind or door sits.

This has its ups and downs, and I am mixed about how I feel about it. Maybe its good, maybe notsomuch. It depends on a lot of things, and honestly, sometimes players simply havent seen that content at all and ripping it up so they can explore safely what things they haven't seen works for me some days. 

 

Kind of like running certain arcs or whathaveyou that arent commonly done. Get the big guns out, help new to the arc/content players enjoy it without being slaughtered.

[QuiJon]

On 2/26/2021 at 11:15 AM, arcaneholocaust said:

Two solutions I use when on speed runs that limit meaningful fights: (1) get to the mob earlier or (2) go fight an additional mob yourself. On ITF mission one I just stealth to the back sybil room so I can have some fun while the others speed through the first several sybils.

Then what is the point of teaming? I mean yes i can run in there and solo those mobs myself, so why not just keep playing solo? Why go to the trouble of finding 7 other players to begin with if you are just running off in your own direction the entire time so you get a chance to feel you are doing something. 

[QuiJon]

17 hours ago, zenblack said:

I think it would be a great move to set the level cap of Dark Astoria to 50+1 and yet keep their improved level. It would turn it into an appropriate end game zone. While this wouldn't change the balance/challenge issue that is inherent in the game, it would be a step towards end game content playing as if you a a powerful hero/villain.

Wouldnt this just prevent people who are friends from being able to team if one was incarnate and one was not? I get what you are saying in theory, but the sidekick system was one of the best features of the game. I dont think we should cut off incarnate players and make it harder for them to find a team simply because they might have friends that lagged 2-3 levels behind them. 

[golstat2003]

On 2/26/2021 at 8:10 AM, Galaxy Brain said:

So, here I gotta throw a flag on the play.

 

Sure, there may be a super Casual McNoobington out there who doesn't slot anything and just presses buttons, but even they have to go to a trainer and level up, and thus get slots. Slots then have enhancements which require them clicking the Enh Tray, which is right next to the Salvage/Recipes which will eventually glow red as they get ignored. Being curious, I bet McNoobington would click on  them and get some ideas / questions.

 

But this goes back into the expectations + what the playerbase on the whole is doing.

 

Ehhh I don't think there should be any expectation that you need to slot the defense or resistance uniques. Even if you dip into the Set IO pool.

 

The uniques are nice to haves. And definitely not necessary or should be expected that folks have those. 

 

Nor should it be expected that you're softcapping defense EVEN if you dip into Set IOs.

[golstat2003]

On 2/26/2021 at 1:12 PM, QuiJon said:

No that is not what i said. In my example that dominator is maybe vet level 70ish. He is perma dom'd and capable of farming +4/8. He is not a gimped character. What i am saying is that i hit Seed of Confusion and 2 seconds later that mob is dead. I dont hit seeds of confusion and 2 seconds later that mob is still dead. The make up of the rest of the team doesnt require me to really even be there. 

 

EDIT: Read the further response. My initial No longer relevant.

Edited February 27, 2021 by golstat2003

[golstat2003]

On 2/26/2021 at 2:07 PM, parabola said:

I feel there is a difference between 'no specific AT or role is required' and 'any extra warm body is simply superfluous'. I don't think anyone is asking for the kind of gameplay where certain AT's are required or you can't succeed, that crap belongs in other games. But that isn't what we are talking about here. If the enemies are being defeated so quickly you can't use the majority of your powers that isn't what I'd call satisfying gameplay. There has to be some middle ground between rigid trinity gameplay and basically doorsitting unless you are launching nukes.

One solution is more difficulty options that challenges such teams.

 

Another (currently available option) is form your own teams that don't run at max team size. 

 

As a related aside, I actually don't understand the need to fill the team to 8 all the time.

 

My favorite PUG team leaders are those that get 4-5, say "good to go" and add more as some folks leave etc. There is not need to run at a full 8 man team all the time.

[zenblack]

16 minutes ago, QuiJon said:

Wouldnt this just prevent people who are friends from being able to team if one was incarnate and one was not? I get what you are saying in theory, but the sidekick system was one of the best features of the game. I dont think we should cut off incarnate players and make it harder for them to find a team simply because they might have friends that lagged 2-3 levels behind them. 

Prevent? No. Also, since there is no level min there would be no reason that sidekicking would be changed from normal, it would simply be a slightly bit more difficult for them due to not having a level shift.

[golstat2003]

On 2/26/2021 at 3:28 PM, Galaxy Brain said:

Problem is,  missions are 99% the same enemies you'd find sweeping 😕 

An All AV difficulty option, like was suggested a few pages back would be great.

[oedipus_tex]

 

10 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

One solution is more difficulty options that challenges such teams.

 

 

I don't think this is a realistic option. I'm not saying no extremely dedicated developer team could do it, because already the dev teams have pulled off some amazing stuff. But it is a ton of work, and involves some technical hurdles I'm not sure any team has yet mastered to author new content.

 

City of Heroes' combat system functions reasonably well when stats fall within certain constraints:

• Most of the team is close to each in other level
• Most of the team doesn't have Defense near or at the soft cap
• Most of the team doesn't have Resistance near or at the soft cap
• The melee team members haven't been able to completely patch the holes in their sets
• The team can't just obliterate the enemies in the first seconds of combat

 

Once those limits are exceeded, it is indeed still possible to challenge the team. It's just that the way to challenge the team at that stage is to disregard their stats and powers.

This is why I lean toward recalibrating what "+4" means. In particular, reeling in Level Shifts and the Winter's Gift set, and ATOs. The numbers don't lend themselves to a comfortable combat system. Adjusting how the -1 to +4 range scales is the most sanitary option. Players will be running the same content under that adjustment. Adding new content that destroys non-IOed players will result in what a lot of folks in this thread fear, gatekeeping content based on the willingness to IO.

Edited February 27, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

 

I don't think this is a realistic option. I'm not saying no extremely dedicated developer team could do it, because already the dev teams have pulled off some amazing stuff. But it is a ton of work, and involves some technical hurdles I'm not sure any team has yet mastered to author new content.

 

City of Heroes' combat system functions reasonably well when stats fall within certain constraints:

• Most of the team is close to each in other level
• Most of the team doesn't have Defense near or at the soft cap
• Most of the team doesn't have Resistance near or at the soft cap
• The melee team members haven't been able to completely patch the holes in their sets
• The team can't just obliterate the enemies in the first seconds of combat

 

Once those limits are exceeded, it is indeed still possible to challenge the team. It's just that the way to challenge the team at that stage is to disregard their stats and powers.

This is why I lean toward recalibrating what "+4" means. In particular, reeling in Level Shifts and the Winter's Gift set, and ATOs. The numbers don't lend themselves to a comfortable combat system. Adjusting how the -1 to +4 range scales is the most sanitary option. Players will be running the same content under that adjustment. Adding new content that destroys non-IOed players will result in what a lot of folks in this thread fear, gatekeeping content based on the willingness to IO.

One or two server have already started the path for more advanced difficulty options. You start small and build over time. Making it possible to have a mission be All AVs, and more than +8 is one small step. They don't need to do it all at once. They can do it a little bit at a time.

[Sovera]

2 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

An All AV difficulty option, like was suggested a few pages back would be great.

Would it? I can't advocate taking 5-10 minutes PER spawn for a WHOLE mission. At best of times a single AV takes like 1 minutes to kill under focused fired and most spawns are composed of 10-12 mobs.

[oedipus_tex]

I'm not necessarily opposed to all-AV missions because variety is important. However, that is definitely not a replacement for standard content and I can't imagine many people being happy with it long term. The amount of rebalancing you'd have to do to make classes like Dominators have a role on an all AV team is intimidating. Much easier to reign in mechanics like Level Shifts over the course of an afternoon rather than engage in months or years trying to reclock everything in the game around a couple of gamebreaking systems that were originally offered as Pay to Win incentives. 

Edited February 28, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

Would it? I can't advocate taking 5-10 minutes PER spawn for a WHOLE mission. At best of times a single AV takes like 1 minutes to kill under focused fired and most spawns are composed of 10-12 mobs.

From what I'm getting some folks would like this.

[golstat2003]

55 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

I'm not necessarily opposed to all-AV missions because variety is important. However, that is definitely not a replacement for standard content and I can't imagine many people being happy with it long term. The amount of rebalancing you'd have to do to make classes like Dominators have a role on an all AV team is intimidating. Much easier to reign in mechanics like Level Shifts over the course of an afternoon rather than engage in months or years trying to reclock everything in the game around a couple of gamebreaking systems that were originally offered as Pay to Win incentives. 

Two of the Level shifts can't be used in regular non-DA and iTrial content. How that does solve the question of difficulty in non-Incarnate content?

 

Also that's (All AV option) just ONE example. There are numerous examples of other difficulty options. Again, they don't all have to be done in one setting/Issue/Page.

 

EDIT: Some others just off the top of my head:

 

A setting that removes the purple triangles

A setting that increases the effect of debuffs from enemy mobs at or above boss level

A setting that can remove the aggro cap

 

No, all of this doesn't have to be done in 1 issue or 1 Page. They can take however long they need to. We'll still all be here. 🙂 

 

EDIT2: To be clear this thread wasn't started of a question of "should incarnate content be balanced around IOs". My understanding was that it was a discussion of all content.

 

And when those that say the game is too easy (in various threads over the last few months) they are talking about the total of COH as a whole (incarnate and non-incarnate content). 

 

So it sounds like the issue is not just incarnates, but more they are referring to (as a starting point) the base game and IOs.

 

But I could be wrong.

Edited February 28, 2021 by golstat2003

[oedipus_tex]

 

 

9 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

Two of the Level shifts can't be used in regular non-DA and iTrial content. How that does solve the question of difficulty in non-Incarnate content?

 

Also that's (All AV option) just ONE example. There are numerous examples of other difficulty options. Again, they don't all have to be done in one setting/Issue/Page.

 

Yes, one of those examples is to restrict Level Shifts to iTrials. 😄  

There are a lot of forum disagreements I "get," but I'm surprised by the Level Shift one. Being able to run around Dark Astoria and get +4 rewards versus +1 enemies while the rest of the team fights +5s strikes me as misperforming both in theory and when actually playing it. I understand we all have our points of view so I won't call anyone who disagrees absolutely wrong, it just surprises me it's a topic of conversation.

More than anything what I do not want to see is +6 +7 and whatnot enemies added just to try to offset the Level Shift ability. At that stage, you're creating teams where some people are fighting +3 or +4s and others are fighting +10s and +11s. Definitely not the direction I want to see the game go in. Much easier to just make the Level Shift apply specifically to iTrials. Should have been that way from the beginning to prevent teaming from turning into Door Sitting All Stars.

[golstat2003]

47 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

 

Yes, one of those examples is to restrict Level Shifts to iTrials. 😄  

There are a lot of forum disagreements I "get," but I'm surprised by the Level Shift one. Being able to run around Dark Astoria and get +4 rewards versus +1 enemies while the rest of the team fights +5s strikes me as misperforming both in theory and when actually playing it. I understand we all have our points of view so I won't call anyone who disagrees absolutely wrong, it just surprises me it's a topic of conversation.

More than anything what I do not want to see is +6 +7 and whatnot enemies added just to try to offset the Level Shift ability. At that stage, you're creating teams where some people are fighting +3 or +4s and others are fighting +10s and +11s. Definitely not the direction I want to see the game go in. Much easier to just make the Level Shift apply specifically to iTrials. Should have been that way from the beginning to prevent teaming from turning into Door Sitting All Stars.

Yes but again, you haven't answered the question about non-incarnate content.

 

Only 1 of the level shifts can be used in non-incarnate content. We'll have to disagree on removing them from Dark Astoria. Dark Astoria is incarnate content.

Edited February 28, 2021 by golstat2003