Resistance Debuff Enhancements/IOs

[SeraphimKensai]

I've been mulling it over for awhile now and the thought came back to me with the release of Sonic Manipulation, why do we have Resistance Debuffs as one of the only player debuffing aspect that we don't have any debuffing enhancements or IO sets for?

 

I don't mean have a proc like Achilles chance for Resistance Debuffs, but straight up having enhancements.

 

We have enhancements for To Hit Debuff, Defense Debuff, Slows, Endmod, but no enhancements slotting for Resistance Debuffs.

 

What I'd propose here would be to discuss the merits of adding enhancements to enhance our abilities to debuff resistance on our targets.

 

 

A Proposal, in the event that Resistance Debuffs enhancements would ever be made:

• Drop Rate 0.57% (which mirrors Defense Debuff enhancement drop rates)
• Fit in Schedule A for Enhancement Aspects (see below if you aren't sure what this means)
• Making corresponding IO sets for Accurate Resistance Debuffs, and Resistance Debuffs varying with Drops from Pools A-D, with some procs (essentially mirroring accurate defense buffs, defense buffs, and maybe even a Chance for Defense Debuff proc)

 

This would allow more powers to be adjusted to allow slotting for Resistance Debuffs, including Sonic Blast, Sonic Manipulation, Sonic Resonance, and even some scattered powers across other sets that do -resistance.

 

 

 

 

Note for those not aware of the four Enhancement Aspect Schedules: Schedule A is as follows: Accuracy, Confusion, Damage, Defense Debuff, Endurance Modification, Endurance Reduction, Fear, Fly, Healing, Hold Duration, Immobilization Duration, Intangibility, Jumping, Recharge Time, Run Speed, Sleep, Slow, Stun, Taunt Aspects in the Schedule A category are enhanced by 33.33% when slotted with a Single-Origin Enhancement of equal level to the character, 16.66% when slotted with a Dual-Origin Enhancement of equal level as the character, and 8.35% when slotted with a Training Enhancement of equal level as the character.

 

 

Would something like this be interesting to the community?

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by SeraphimKensai

[arcane]

Resistance debuff is already one of the most powerful tools in the game with zero enhancement. Not seeing this as a viable change unless the debuff base values are nerfed, which I don’t think you want.

[SeraphimKensai]

2 minutes ago, arcaneholocaust said:

Resistance debuff is already one of the most powerful tools in the game with zero enhancement. Not seeing this as a viable change unless the debuff base values are nerfed, which I don’t think you want.

Honestly I'm not necessarily against lowering base values of resistance Debuffs, if any only if those values are enhanceable. I'd have to take a look at numbers to look at overall net change, but having the ability to enhance powers I think is a useful tool to have.

 

[macskull]

IIRC this isn't a thing because of how closely damage and resistance are tied together in the game engine, i.e. any buffable +/- res would be affected by damage buffs/debuffs.

[SeraphimKensai]

3 minutes ago, macskull said:

IIRC this isn't a thing because of how closely damage and resistance are tied together in the game engine, i.e. any buffable +/- res would be affected by damage buffs/debuffs.

That's an interesting concept that I hadn't heard of a correlation between the two, do you know where.you might of seen that?

[macskull]

It's why resistance buffs are flagged to ignore enhancements and other boosts - using Fade as an example here. Until last year sometime, Fade was bugged and was missing that flag, so any damage bonuses you had when you cast the power would increase the amount of resistance the power granted.

[Yomo Kimyata]

49 minutes ago, arcaneholocaust said:

Resistance debuff is already one of the most powerful tools in the game with zero enhancement. Not seeing this as a viable change unless the debuff base values are nerfed, which I don’t think you want.

Quoted for emphasis.  Resist debuff is incredibly powerful.

[SeraphimKensai]

Hmmm perhaps then there's something in the  formula going on with damage and resistance as some type of multiplicative relationship between the two. It would be really cool if someone had the actual formula handy as it would be interesting to dissect.

Edited February 4, 2021 by SeraphimKensai

[DSorrow]

1 hour ago, SeraphimKensai said:

That's an interesting concept that I hadn't heard of a correlation between the two, do you know where.you might of seen that?

There was a point in time when +DMG/+Range HOs were the optimal slotting for most ally shields because the +33.3% Damage actually enhanced the Resistance the powers provided meaning you could hit the ED soft cap (~56%) with just two enhancements as opposed to three using standard +Res enhancements (+20% a piece). This has since been fixed, but given that it worked in the first place, it's pretty obvious how +DMG and +Res are tied. Anecdotally, the same was true for +Def vs. +DefDebuff and +ToHit vs +ToHitDebuff enhancement values given by HOs.

[aethereal]

3 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

That's an interesting concept that I hadn't heard of a correlation between the two, do you know where.you might of seen that?

So okay, stats in this game have a host of derivative values.  So, Slow, for example, has a derivative value called Slow Resistance (which you can get with like winter IOs and so forth).  This is actually codified into the game engine, it's not like there are two stats that are completely separate that happen to be both looked at in the context of determining slows.  In fact, before any effect is applied to you, the game system knows that all effects have an associated Resistance stat, and checks the resistance stat before it applies the effect to you.

 

Damage Resistance is, er, the resistance derived stat of the Damage stat.  It's not its own thing.

 

So, Enhancement is another derived stat of main stats.  Every main stat (Slow, Fly Speed, Damage, Healing, whatever) has an associated derived stat called X-Enhancement (so Slow Enhancement, etc).  Enhancements enhance other derived stats on the main stat -- so if you had enhanceable Damage Resistance, every time you enhanced Damage, you'd also enhance the Damage Resistance, because Damage and Damage Resistance aren't really separate things.

 

Beyond that, I'm out of my depth in talking about the system.

 

EDIT:  Actually, I'm even more out of my depth.  You obviously can enhance resist damage powers (think: mainline armors for resistance sets).  It's debuffs that you can't allow to be enhanceable.  I think this is due to a system called Strength to X (where X is a stat), which I think in turn has to do with how you give people global bonuses that affect multiple powers (like, say, the damage bonus you get from build up or a red insp, which doesn't just affect a single power but all of them).  Because these are all various derived stats from the damage attribute, I think the deal is that they all share a strength sub-attribute, so red insps would help your debuffs or something like that.

 

Ultimately, beyond the details, the issue is that these aren't independent stats, they have a codified relationship within a generic way that CoH Deals With Stats and that isn't very amenable to changing without changing every other stat or substantially rewriting the engine.

Edited February 4, 2021 by aethereal

[wjrasmussen]

5 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

I've been mulling it over for awhile now and the thought came back to me with the release of Sonic Manipulation, why do we have Resistance Debuffs as one of the only player debuffing aspect that we don't have any debuffing enhancements or IO sets for?

 

I don't mean have a proc like Achilles chance for Resistance Debuffs, but straight up having enhancements.

 

We have enhancements for To Hit Debuff, Defense Debuff, Slows, Endmod, but no enhancements slotting for Resistance Debuffs.

 

What I'd propose here would be to discuss the merits of adding enhancements to enhance our abilities to debuff resistance on our targets.

 

 

A Proposal, in the event that Resistance Debuffs enhancements would ever be made:

• Drop Rate 0.57% (which mirrors Defense Debuff enhancement drop rates)
• Fit in Schedule A for Enhancement Aspects (see below if you aren't sure what this means)
• Making corresponding IO sets for Accurate Resistance Debuffs, and Resistance Debuffs varying with Drops from Pools A-D, with some procs (essentially mirroring accurate defense buffs, defense buffs, and maybe even a Chance for Defense Debuff proc)

 

This would allow more powers to be adjusted to allow slotting for Resistance Debuffs, including Sonic Blast, Sonic Manipulation, Sonic Resonance, and even some scattered powers across other sets that do -resistance.

 

 

 

 

Note for those not aware of the four Enhancement Aspect Schedules: Schedule A is as follows: Accuracy, Confusion, Damage, Defense Debuff, Endurance Modification, Endurance Reduction, Fear, Fly, Healing, Hold Duration, Immobilization Duration, Intangibility, Jumping, Recharge Time, Run Speed, Sleep, Slow, Stun, Taunt Aspects in the Schedule A category are enhanced by 33.33% when slotted with a Single-Origin Enhancement of equal level to the character, 16.66% when slotted with a Dual-Origin Enhancement of equal level as the character, and 8.35% when slotted with a Training Enhancement of equal level as the character.

 

 

Would something like this be interesting to the community?

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

What level are you talking about?   Have you played it at 50 and have problems or are you a lower level and wish you had more power?

[SeraphimKensai]

32 minutes ago, wjrasmussen said:

What level are you talking about?   Have you played it at 50 and have problems or are you a lower level and wish you had more power?

I've had in the course of my experience with the game 422 lvl 50's give or take a few drunken deletions over the years since I started with CoH in Beta back in spring 2004.. I've played Sonic Resonance and Sonic Blast to 50 multiple times over multiple AT's starting with it's launch, as I used to be an avid team PvPer. I can't say the same as of yet for Sonic Manipulation, my experience there goes up to lvl 44 ATM, but it's my next 50 I think. I'm sadly cursed with being a min/maxer, it's a bit of a disease as in every MMO I play I have to grind until my characters are the best they can be, still sad that in wow my old warlock only ever hit number #3 on it's server's progression ranking before I quit that. That aside...

 

I haven't had any problems, persay, however my suggestion is rooted in thinking about the possibilities that someone could get if allowed to actually slot for -resistance.

 

 

[Arbegla]

11 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

I haven't had any problems, persay, however my suggestion is rooted in thinking about the possibilities that someone could get if allowed to actually slot for -resistance.

I think the root of the issue falls with now -resistance is handled mechanically, and how crazy that could get.

 

Right now, Resistance Resists Resistance Debuffs equally. The numbers are a little messy, but the short and sweet of it is that a -20% resistance debuff, increases your overall damage by 20% (even though it might not be a straight reduction of 20% resistance to the thing you're debuffing)

 

Because of the fact that -resistance is a straight 1:1 increase in damage done, it would be quite insane to enhance -resistance further than it already is.

Edited February 5, 2021 by Arbegla

[summers]

Resistance debuffs are already one of the strongest, most desirable powers in the game and they do not need to be more powerful. With Schedule A enhancements they essentially double in power and... no.

 

Leave them alone thanks.