Change Sidekick to level rather than level-1

[TemporalVileTerror]

Yeah, I don't play for experience points.  Multiple characters of mine have experience gain disabled, in fact.

Different people play the game in different ways, with different goals in mind.

[Ukase]

On 2/7/2021 at 11:25 AM, Uun said:

As much as I like ITFs, I refuse to run them sidekicked and wait until I hit 50 to run them for this very reason. I just feel so ineffective against +5s.

 

The other option (which is difficult to get people on board with) is to have the leader NOT be a lvl 50 and let the 50s exemp down. The TF level will lock relative to the leader's level at the time it's started. If the leader is 45+, the 50s will still keep their incarnate goodies.

It wouldn't bother me...but so many players now PL to 50, picking powers in no particular order. I would venture most of them use level 50 IOs instead of attuned, and they would think themselves seriously gimped if exemped below 45. 

[SwitchFade]

7 hours ago, Col. Kernel said:

Counter point:  If you're not 50 you're there for the XP more than to assist the team.

Devil's advocate: not true, I'm here for the fun.

[thunderforce]

On 2/15/2021 at 2:31 PM, UltraAlt said:

I haven't read the entire thread.

Maybe you should before replying?

On 2/15/2021 at 2:31 PM, UltraAlt said:

But I definitely see different play styles. One of which is 'What IS the team doing for me? Because I'm the important one."

I'm not sure what kind of twisty logic makes you think the players who want to be effective contributors to the team can be so described.

On 2/15/2021 at 2:31 PM, UltraAlt said:

Sidekicks are there to aide the more powerful characters and not to be as powerful as they are.

As I have said, they wouldn't be sidekicks if they were on equal footing.

Where is that written? (And, of course, they wouldn't be, because they'd have fewer powers to lose). You seem to be suggesting the game mechanics should be entirely at the whim of whatever word was picked 16 years ago. 

On 2/15/2021 at 2:31 PM, UltraAlt said:

Everyone can play the game their own way and have fun.

Unless, in your world, "their own way" involves being able to contribute to teams effectively.

10 hours ago, Col. Kernel said:

Counter point:  If you're not 50 you're there for the XP more than to assist the team.

I can't speak for anyone else, but this ain't so for me - I usually run ITF and the like XP-off.

[BelleSorciere]

19 hours ago, Col. Kernel said:

Counter point:  If you're not 50 you're there for the XP more than to assist the team.

Countercounterpoint: If I'm not 50 I still still like playing the game

[Replacement]

Improbable and obtuse suggestion:

I think it would be neat if Sidekicks had some UI element they could drop inspirations on to sacrifice them for a temporary +1 level, with additionals adding duration instead.

 

And then I realize a bunch of issues with that and come to a different thought:

What if Inspirations gave additional benefit while SK'd, to offset the level difference?

 

And I think this is kind of neat, but also makes me want a +mez/debuff strength inspiration.

[arthurh35353]

That sounds like you're trying to solve a different problem there.

[Doomguide2005]

3 hours ago, Replacement said:

Improbable and obtuse suggestion:

I think it would be neat if Sidekicks had some UI element they could drop inspirations on to sacrifice them for a temporary +1 level, with additionals adding duration instead.

 

And then I realize a bunch of issues with that and come to a different thought:

What if Inspirations gave additional benefit while SK'd, to offset the level difference?

 

And I think this is kind of neat, but also makes me want a +mez/debuff strength inspiration.

Well there are the various Imbuement inspirations which when used effect all teammates "nearby".  I do not know how close they need to be to the user.  And while not team wide there are the Ultimate inspirations that offer +1 level shifts to the user.  Nothing in the Wiki description indicates the user needs to be level 50 to use one.

 

The minimum Tactical Imbuement would pretty much eliminate the difference between fighting +4's and +5's. (7.5% buff).

Edited February 18, 2021 by Doomguide2005
Accuracy and more info

[Replacement]

1 minute ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Well there are the various Imbuement inspirations which when used effect all teammates "nearby".  Some of them apply multiple buffs to those effected.  I do not know how close they need to be to the user.  And while not team wide there are the Ultimate inspirations that offer +1 level shifts to the user.  Nothing in the Wiki description indicates the user needs to be level 50 to use one.

No I mean, instead of +12,5% acc from an insight, gain double that while SK'd.

All +1 level means in this context is "bigger stats" and this would do so, albeit piecemeal.

 

But that doesn't really help a Controller's controls or debuffs.

[srmalloy]

On 2/10/2021 at 8:18 AM, arthurh35353 said:

You do kind of need to aim for the lowest common denominator or break point, so since the +1 level really hurts at the bleeding purple edge, removing it so that doesn't overly hit the sidekick is very much a reasonable step, IMO.

Alternatively, how about a hybrid approach? Retain the sidekick as -1 level, and add back the range limit from the original version of sidekicking, except that instead of 'falling out' of the sidekick if you got too far away, change it so that as long as you were within some moderately generous radius of someone at the leader's level, you got a +1 boost to your combat level? This would give a nod back to the original concept of the sidekick fighting alongside their mentor, not running off to do their own thing, and address the increased divide at higher difficulty settings.

[UberGuy]

1 minute ago, srmalloy said:

Alternatively, how about a hybrid approach? Retain the sidekick as -1 level, and add back the range limit from the original version of sidekicking, except that instead of 'falling out' of the sidekick if you got too far away, change it so that as long as you were within some moderately generous radius of someone at the leader's level, you got a +1 boost to your combat level? This would give a nod back to the original concept of the sidekick fighting alongside their mentor, not running off to do their own thing, and address the increased divide at higher difficulty settings.

As much as I feel this system is in need of change, if it were to be tweaked, I'd dig this approach.

[arthurh35353]

I think we want to think simple changes/fixes that resolve the issue, not thematic but complicated idea to resolve it.

Edited February 18, 2021 by arthurh35353

[Coyotedancer]

Oh great gods, NO... No return to Sidekicking distance-leashes. I don't care what effect it's tied to.

 

The constant pop-up text alone was annoying as all hell. 😫

[BelleSorciere]

3 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

Oh great gods, NO... No return to Sidekicking distance-leashes. I don't care what effect it's tied to.

 

The constant pop-up text alone was annoying as all hell. 😫

It wouldn't happen with the suggestion under discussion all of my worst CoH experiences have come from the sidekick leash and recall friend

[thunderforce]

17 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

Oh great gods, NO... No return to Sidekicking distance-leashes. I don't care what effect it's tied to.

 

The constant pop-up text alone was annoying as all hell. 😫

Eh... if for some reason we don't just get rid of the -1 level altogether, having it exist but only when you're far from your mentor (and no pop-ups) would be an improvement on the current situation. It wouldn't be like the old days.

 

(But it would still be a half-solution to just getting rid of a bad thing... and pretty aggravating for MMs if the 1-level change makes their pets go pop every time they take a lift.)

Edited February 19, 2021 by thunderforce

[srmalloy]

3 hours ago, thunderforce said:

and pretty aggravating for MMs if the 1-level change makes their pets go pop every time they take a lift.

That was something I hadn't considered; compensating for that would be a pain, unless as part of the change there was a revision to how pets work so that they sidekick and exemplar along with their summoner -- which I have to admit would be a very nice QoL improvement for any powerset with pets, but which I expect would be a stone cold bitch to change in the code.

[arthurh35353]

So I think we can say the consensus is that the purple patch can hit side kicks (and masterminds) extra hard on edge cases and the -1 sidekick is that purple patch kicking while your down.

[SwitchFade]

1 hour ago, arthurh35353 said:

So I think we can say the consensus is that the purple patch can hit side kicks (and masterminds) extra hard on edge cases and the -1 sidekick is that purple patch kicking while your down.

That's not accurate at all. A consensus is not the perpsective of me, you or the other 5 posters here. There are some here who don't like the SK system and there are some who do like it. There's no convincing argument to change it. There's also factual proof that the system has no systemic issues.

 

Hyperbole about being kicked when down also doesn't make a claim based on little data any more factually substantive.

 

I get it, some in this thread don't like to be -1. Some people in this thread like it fine.

 

But a consensus requires a MUCH larger sample set of the population of players, which we most decidedly do not have, yet.

 

Until then, hard no vote to changes, based on evidence.

Edited February 19, 2021 by SwitchFade

[Replacement]

On 2/18/2021 at 1:51 PM, Coyotedancer said:

Oh great gods, NO... No return to Sidekicking distance-leashes. I don't care what effect it's tied to.

 

The constant pop-up text alone was annoying as all hell. 😫

I mean, you're kind of asserting things that aren't at all true of the suggestion.  Like, why would you assume this would see a return of a pop-up?

 

This is simply "level -1 when far away, same level when close up."

 

On 2/18/2021 at 1:38 PM, arthurh35353 said:

I think we want to think simple changes/fixes that resolve the issue, not thematic but complicated idea to resolve it.

I'm not certain you would be satisfied with any fix that isn't "remove the -1 level" but I just don't see it happening.

 

It's kind of a core premise, it's part of the fiction, and not everyone is on board with removing it.

 

Any solution is going to be thematic and at least a little bit complicated.  More importantly, it's not going to come without a drawback.

 

Personally, I don't like "ask your team leader to lower the difficulty"  as an answer.  This is what @SwitchFade is not addressing.  Social pressures are real, and asking someone to get way out of their comfort zone and display weakness in front of strangers is not at all the same as "having fun and enjoying the game" - and I would wager this goes double for a party leader who has mixed company for their party ("Do I lower it for the SKs and seem weak to the same-levels?  Hell, many of the SKs will think I'm saying we can't handle it.")

 

So I do want to see a solution.  I just can't imagine it will be wholesale removal of the -1, no trade-offs.

 

Snark answer: start combining inspirations into yellows.  This solution is so simple you don't need any code changes! (This is a joke.)

[SwitchFade]

I think @Replacementmakes some great points.

 

 

Plainly, and what I highlight, is that we have yet to actually defined the real cause. There is opining about a symptom, not a cause. Currently, there are too many variables that cannot be clearly and conclusively identified as the prime contributor that causes the problem.

 

-1? Not always the direct cause, fixed with other currently available measures

 

Diff setting too high? Always the direct cause. I want to be succinct here there is no situation under which lowering the difficulty does not fix the problem stated. Again, this one possible remedy works in ALL cases to solve the problem stated.

 

All ATs/Sets affected? No, my stalkers can fight at +5 happily. My blasters can fight at +5 in teams. My controllers and defenders with leadership can overcome it for the team.

 

All teams affected? No, if two or more leadership powers are running, this negates the -1

 

These are some examples. Clearly, if we list case examples and define all the probable causes, it's clear a simple -1 shift is not conclusively the cause.

 

For this reason I'm not arguing that it's liked or disliked; merely that, at the present time, there is no conclusive evidence to reject the null hypothesis/state that the current system is NOT the cause.

 

Too many other factors solve the issue. Further, if we shift up +1, it actually causes OTHER issues.

 

So, for a purported change, there's no clear evidence that -1 is the cause, that removal would solve it and NOT cause other issues. For example, if I claim "taking a Shower causes mildew in my bathroom, the solution is not to shower," I am completely ignoring that moisture itself is not the cause, excessive un-evaporated moisture that allows fungal growth to occur IS the cause. I have multiple solutions at my disposal (dry excessive moisture, clean regularly, shorten shower length, etc), and each would solve the issue... But one stinks 🤪😋🤣🤣

 

I want to be abundantly clear here, I am not saying that shifting up 1 would not solve the original problem, I am saying that it is not the direct cause, that it DOES come with a new set of issues and that going nuclear has consequences.

Edited February 19, 2021 by SwitchFade

[BelleSorciere]

4 hours ago, arthurh35353 said:

So I think we can say the consensus is that the purple patch can hit side kicks (and masterminds) extra hard on edge cases and the -1 sidekick is that purple patch kicking while your down.

Thank you for this summation

 

Precisely

 

And yeah MM pets being -1 and -2 to the MM sucks. And if you're a sidekick then it's so much worse. 

[Replacement]

@SwitchFade I think one thing that actually isn't addressed is pretty specifically the OP's "debuff controller" use case:

 

We can combat the drop in accuracy, incoming damage, etc.  But the purple patch also reduces debuff strength and mez duration, which have very very few active modifiers.

 

I think you're still valid, here, I just wanted to be thorough and point out this... I think I'd say imbalance.  A Scrapper can add more acc and damage and just keep doing their job, but a controller can really only up their acc and... just live with there not being an avenue to improve the other aspects of their role.  You can "fix the problem" to different degrees, depending on what your party role is.

 

Edited February 19, 2021 by Replacement

[BelleSorciere]

52 minutes ago, Replacement said:

I mean, you're kind of asserting things that aren't at all true of the suggestion.  Like, why would you assume this would see a return of a pop-up?

 

This is simply "level -1 when far away, same level when close up."

 

I'm not certain you would be satisfied with any fix that isn't "remove the -1 level" but I just don't see it happening.

That's because any "fix" that isn't "remove the -1 level" isn't a fix.

 

Thematic arguments shouldn't even be considered. Fiction isn't written with game balance in mind, and so while sidekicks in comics or whatever are presented as less skilled/experienced/powerful than their mentors, they don't usually end up feeling completely ineffective. Plus, I want to add, the only thematic element of "sidekicking" is the name. The purpose of sidekicks in City of Heroes was so low level characters could team with higher level characters and have at least a chance of contributing. You could have multiple different sidekick/mentor pairings in just a few hours, showing this isn't the intercharacter bond such as seen between Batman and Robin or Captain America and Bucky, but again a game mechanics contrivance to make teaming easier. 

Edited February 19, 2021 by BelleSorciere
Apologies for needless snark

[SwitchFade]

33 minutes ago, BelleSorciere said:

That's because any "fix" that isn't "remove the -1 level" isn't a fix.

 

Thematic arguments shouldn't even be considered. Fiction isn't written with game balance in mind, and so while sidekicks in comics or whatever are presented as less skilled/experienced/powerful than their mentors, they don't usually end up feeling completely ineffective. Plus, I want to add, the only thematic element of "sidekicking" is the name. The purpose of sidekicks in City of Heroes was so low level characters could team with higher level characters and have at least a chance of contributing. You could have multiple different sidekick/mentor pairings in just a few hours, showing this isn't the intercharacter bond such as seen between Batman and Robin or Captain America and Bucky, but again a game mechanics contrivance to make teaming easier. 

Please allow me to say that I respect your opinion and preferences, but they are most decidedly not facts; much the same as mine are not. Facts have been established clearly indicating that the SK system is not the cause of the "perceived problem."

 

Making sweeping declarations that insinuate that your views are facts and evidence is questionable.

 

Sidekicking is not peering, wasn't intended to be

Many "fixes" solve the original "problem"

Source material is valid

Backstory is valid

Fiction is valid

Theme is absolutely valid

Game mechanics are valid

 

Nowhere thus far have you presented  any real evidence supporting your claim/desire, but I respect it nonetheless; where you begin to lose your audience is with the insistence that you're righteous without any proof.

 

I acknowledge you think that SK is the issue, but I'm sorry, facts refute that. There is a wider issue, which has more to do with purple patch needing adjustment on how it affects support sets as @Replacement mentioned, MMs being hosed and no warning text to team lead that a +shift in difficulty is dangerous to your SIDEKICK, so protect them, and so on.

 

Outliers are not median benchmarks. They should be addressed though.

[Coyotedancer]

4 hours ago, Replacement said:

I mean, you're kind of asserting things that aren't at all true of the suggestion.  Like, why would you assume this would see a return of a pop-up?

So, you want people to have to keep a constant eye on their buff bar to avoid losing the extra level?  

 

I'd call that also not an ideal situation, and not all that less annoying than the constant pop-ups we used to see with old-school side-kicking.

 

But then, I may be a bit biased here. I don't really think the problem you guys are trying to solve actually is all that pressing an issue. 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2021 by Coyotedancer