Praetorian Map Scales

[Darmian]

Is there anyone out there who can tell me what the scale of the main Praetorian map is versus the First Ward map?  Was just doing a visualization for myself but First Ward is enormously zoomed in relative to the rest of Praetoria. 

[Aberrant]

Here's a quick attempt at combining all 4 Praetorian zone maps together using some quick in-game marker measurements, bridges, and crossroads to get them roughly to the same relative scale. Nova Praetoria, Neutropolis and First Ward maps seem to be pretty much the same scale, but the Imperial City map is at a much smaller scale due to its height, and I think squished thin, needing a small stretch horizontally to line up correctly after scaling. Imperial City shore to shore is roughly the same width as Nova Praetoria and the distance from the eastern wall of Neutropolis to the middle of Lambda Sector, 0.7 miles

Edited February 20, 2021 by Aberrant

[Darmian]

And you have lined up First Ward pretty much where I think it goes, since that looks like the same road at the edges of both the FW and Imperical City maps.

[Darmian]

Now I just need to figure out where Last Bastion goes!  LOL.

[huang3721]

We can approximate their scale using the distance between two markers as @Aberrant said. Rather than map features, I use exploration badge markers. 

1. Get all badge locations from Praetorian Exploration Badges - Unofficial Homecoming Wiki (cityofheroes.dev)
2. Draw the distance between badges using a scatterplot.
3. Overlay each plot with its respective zone map.
4. Scale the zone map using badges as a guide.

 

Each pixel in this map is roughly 17 feet, so each red dot is 86 feet in diameter.

 

Nova Praetoria (about 1.08km x 1.53km or 0.67mi x 0.94mi) and its underground tunnel:

  

 

First Ward (about 1.95km x 2.4km or 1.2mi x 1.5mi) 

Edited February 26, 2021 by huang3721
image update

[Darmian]

For a moment I was confused by the fact the Underground goes beyond the shore line, but then I remembered that essentially this is an artificially created waterway, so sure, parts could extend beneath the sea there.

[huang3721]

I see a rough pattern. Clockwork Mechanic, Morbid, and Trainspotter are roughly below CMF, Hospital, and CTA. Disappeared is slightly far off from the building behind Cleopatra. However, Loyalist and Resistance access points do not match between maps.

I always feel that Nova's underground map is larger than its surface map. I assume they reach far beyond the river. Someone has to do a routine check on those sonic fences, right? It turns out that I am wrong. 

[Darmian]

Well, the Underground doesn't have to align exactly, I mean we don't really know how far down or in what angle we are climbing once those tunnels are entered. And another thing!  Where are all the trains?

[huang3721]

  

15 hours ago, Darmian said:

Where are all the trains?

Ah yes, the trains! There should be some of them running deep below underground, right? 

It would be funny if we could lure some ghouls to an incoming train...

 

The rest of the maps are a bit weird, so I post them separately here.

Imperial City (excluding BAF and Tiberian Heights) is roughly 0.67mi x 1.18mi (1.09km x 1.89km). Here is the interesting part. The devs may have planned to put Mother of Mercy Hospital in Imperial City before retconned it to First Ward. Broken Mind and Silent Witness badges state that they are right below Mercy Hospital and Precinct 4. So, both facilities must reside in the city. I think it makes sense to put the hospital there since Mercy is a seer production facility. It needs raw materials (psychics) and Imperial City has enough Syndicate psychics to ensure a steady production rate.

 

 

 

Neutropolis map consists of three major islands:

1. The city itself (excluding the docks) is roughly 0.62mi x 0.4mi (1km x 0.66km)
2. Lambda complex(excluding two small islands nearby) is about 0.65mi x 0.51mi (1.04km x 0.9km)
3. The power plant roughly 0.55mi x 0.3mi (0.88km x 0.48km)

I align that "Ready for Anything" badge with the lambda complex since that is the only badge with an explicit location. The underground map is much smaller than its surface map. 

 

Edited February 26, 2021 by huang3721
reply

[Darmian]

Pondering your lovely work on these maps - and ignoring First Ward, because despite there being a CTA station and missions into the Underground, there is no Underground First Ward map - and allowing for the OG Devs not even thinking about it this way, it looks like there could be even more areas of Underground that we never see, like the bits that actually have trains in them!  I'm thinking in world here, rather than any real world reason.

 

Though a First Ward Underground map would be a great addition.  Imagine the horrors to find down there?  And like the Abandoned sewers it could almost operate as a 40 to 50 hazard zone for Gold Side, especially if it crossed into a horrific Night Ward version!

[huang3721]

7 minutes ago, Darmian said:

Though a First Ward Underground map...

I wish!

[AboveTheChemist]

This isn't adding anything new to the thread, but I've been working on a project which involves georeferencing a number of game maps so that I can work with them in GIS software. Since Neutropolis, Imperial City, and Nova Praetoria share a common origin point, I was able to display them relative to one another as they exist in the game world, and export the image.

 

 

Unfortunately I don't think any of the other maps in Praetoria share the same common origin point, so I couldn't add them, but I thought this image might be of some interest. For those curious about why the maps are cropped, I needed to create a map edge that was accessible in-game so I could get the coordinates there for georeferencing.

 

I also think it shows that Aberrant did a damn fine job with the initial combination of the four maps!

[huang3721]

2 hours ago, AboveTheChemist said:

Imperial City, and Nova Praetoria share a common origin point,

I didn't notice that! Thanks!

 

*hastily redrawing scatter plot*

[Aberrant]

Since we're talking about Praetoria and its maps, in case anyone hasn't seen them these are some early test maps for Praetoria and First Ward that can still be found in the piggs and their last modified date.

22 April 2009

27 August 2010

[Darmian]

Interesting!

 

[Number Six]

8 hours ago, Aberrant said:

Since we're talking about Praetoria and its maps, in case anyone hasn't seen them these are some early test maps for Praetoria and First Ward that can still be found in the piggs and their last modified date.

Honestly kinda surprised that apparently nobody has dug up the previs model that goes with that map yet.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Darmian]

So these aren't anywhere that anyone knows about?  I mean if they were then with a bit of (HARD WORK/LONG HOURS/BLAH BLAH) then Gold could easily have that necessary 40 to 50 level somewhere, other than my own mad idea of building an Underground for First Ward (that crosses into Night Ward) from existing Underground and Underground Incarnate Trial maps.  Finally get to open the door on the CTA building in First Ward! (Yes, I already said that above, and yes I am saying it again...because I like the idea!)

Edited March 8, 2021 by Darmian

[Aberrant]

@Number Six Even cooler! Very ambitious of them to have attempted such a large dense map, not surprised it got split apart into further apart islands. Neat to see what looks like the Mother of Mayhem Hospital in Praetoria proper before it got moved to First Ward, I guess what is now Neutropolis old town started it's life functionally as First Ward, it even has the church!

 

Edited March 7, 2021 by Aberrant

[Darmian]

13 minutes ago, Aberrant said:

@Number Six Even cooler! Very ambitious of them to have attempted such a large dense map, not surprised it got split apart into islands. Neat to see what looks like the Mother of Mayhem Hospital in Praetoria proper before it got moved to First Ward, I guess what is now Neutropolis old town started it's life functionally as First Ward, it even has the church!

 

That would match up with the discrepancy between the Underground badge that says it is below the Mother of Mercy, when that ended up in First Ward.

[Number Six]

A few additional bits:

 

There are some references in the translation files to a place called “The Fringe”. It was apparently scrapped early on so there isn’t much there aside from contact introduction text, but it appears to have been meant to be a higher-level hazard zone where the Praetorian military directly engaged the Devouring Earth to keep it at bay.

 

Similarly, some other unused text strongly indicates that the Rift Enclosure was originally going to be a physical place accessible outside the going-to-primal-Earth mission. It looks like it was planned to be a high security complex made up of multiple buildings and serve as a mission hub for Praetorians, a la Portal Corps. There’s even text and badge art for an unused day job and accolade associated with it.

[Bionic_Flea]

8 minutes ago, Number Six said:

A few additional bits:

 

There are some references in the translation files to a place called “The Fringe”. It was apparently scrapped early on so there isn’t much there aside from contact introduction text, but it appears to have been meant to be a higher-level hazard zone where the Praetorian military directly engaged the Devouring Earth to keep it at bay.

 

Similarly, some other unused text strongly indicates that the Rift Enclosure was originally going to be a physical place accessible outside the going-to-primal-Earth mission. It looks like it was planned to be a high security complex made up of multiple buildings and serve as a mission hub for Praetorians, a la Portal Corps. There’s even text and badge art for an unused day job and accolade associated with it.

[Darmian]

I'm going to be cheeky and refer people to my three Loyalist based AEs (in the signature), and one of them is quasi Portal Corp.  Had to do a bit of lateral thinking to get it to work but I think it does!

 

And yes!  Make it so!

Edited March 8, 2021 by Darmian

[Icecomet]

19 hours ago, Number Six said:

A few additional bits:

 

There are some references in the translation files to a place called “The Fringe”. It was apparently scrapped early on so there isn’t much there aside from contact introduction text, but it appears to have been meant to be a higher-level hazard zone where the Praetorian military directly engaged the Devouring Earth to keep it at bay.

 

Similarly, some other unused text strongly indicates that the Rift Enclosure was originally going to be a physical place accessible outside the going-to-primal-Earth mission. It looks like it was planned to be a high security complex made up of multiple buildings and serve as a mission hub for Praetorians, a la Portal Corps. There’s even text and badge art for an unused day job and accolade associated with it.

 

Not to hijack or otherwise derail this discussion, but, since you mentioned badges, are there any intentions into releasing previously created, but unreleased badges?  I know of the following from LIVE:

 

ACCOLADES not Implemented

Iron Man (Undefined) (+10% Max HP, +10% Max End)

SG Mission Computer (Base Mission Computer) (Undefined)

Street Crime (Undefined) (Defeat 1000 of all street gangs, outdoor kills only)

Super Patriot (Undefined) (+5% Max Endurance)

 

I can certainly see Street Crime being a popular choice for the more villainous at heart and Super Patriot being popular with the more heroic oriented.  Iron Man would certainly be loved by tank types without a doubt!  🙂   I am only assuming these still exist in the code base would just need an assignment in game to accomplish them.  Maybe something to consider?

 

Icecomet

 

 

Edited March 8, 2021 by Icecomet
Clarification

[Darmian]

Hmm,  I can see the name "Super Patriot" being a bit tricky these days!  SG Mission Computer?  Well, since we have effectively unlimited base access now, how on earth would you earn it?  Use the base computer 100 times?  That's pretty much the same as buying it since a mission costs 1 Reward Merit. Street Crime and Iron Man?  They could definitely go somewhere!

[Icecomet]

4 minutes ago, Darmian said:

Hmm,  I can see the name "Super Patriot" being a bit tricky these days!  SG Mission Computer?  Well, since we have effectively unlimited base access now, how on earth would you earn it?  Use the base computer 100 times?  That's pretty much the same as buying it since a mission costs 1 Reward Merit. Street Crime and Iron Man?  They could definitely go somewhere!

 

Well, could give Super Patriot a split name between sides.  Super Patriot for hero, Super Villain for a villain?  Clearly, there's flexibility there, again, I am working off information I had stored here from my LIVE badge tracking spreadsheet...

 

Icecomet