Struggle free of mez effects

[arcane]

This game is solo friendly yes but is so obviously balanced around team play that it is clear that team play ranks higher on the hierarchy of importance than solo play.

[arcane]

25 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

See last comment. Breakfrees run out. Unless you're the type of person to store a hundred of them in email.

They run out in your tray. They are infinitely purchasable.

[arcane]

32 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

They are when you're a long term player (read since issue 1) and base performance on XP/MIN.

That impact would only be noticeable solo and it would be ridiculous to assert this game is balanced around solo play. FF defenders (who ironically have mez protection lol) would have to keep up with your melee characters at solo XP/min for that to be the case, and it is self-evident that that is not the case.

 

Also the implication that your xp/min philosophy has anything to do with being a long term player is verifiably ludicrous.

Edited March 23, 2021 by arcane

[Alchemystic]

19 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

Ummm....

 

*looks down to the RolePlaying section*

 

... no.

 

Actually the 'role' part of RPG was first coined for games with class mechanics like warrior/rogue/wizard or tank/DPS/healer dating back years now.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, Tyrannical said:

Again, not the point I was making.

 

I'm saying if YOU get mezzed, SOMEBODY ELSE playing a controller/corruptor/defender/mastermind can un-mez you.

 

The game was built around dynamics like this, most MMORPGs are, that's what the R stands for after all.

 

And yet I DON'T get mezzed on X% of the characters I play. Why should I have to rely on mez protection from teammates on Y% of characters when I don't on the original X%?

[Bill Z Bubba]

15 minutes ago, arcane said:

Also the implication that your xp/min philosophy has anything to do with being a long term player is verifiably ludicrous.

 

Prove it. This game has a ridiculously long history with being based PRECISELY around xp/time.

[Arbegla]

11 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

 

Actually the 'role' part of RPG was first coined for games with class mechanics like warrior/rogue/wizard or tank/DPS/healer dating back years now.

 

I don't know about that..: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_massively_multiplayer_online_games

The term MMORPG was coined by Richard Garriott, the creator of Ultima Online, in 1997.^[20]

[Greycat]

6 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

 

Actually the 'role' part of RPG was first coined for games with class mechanics like warrior/rogue/wizard or tank/DPS/healer dating back years now.

 

And they just put "playing" there because it's a game and you're supposed to play it, I suppose... not because *roleplaying,* in the sense of the forum section I just put there, was ever a thing dating back before and inspiring *roleplaying* video games. I suppose we're lucky they put "game" in there so we knew that's what it was and didn't confuse it with an awkward spreadsheet and wondered why we couldn't balance a checkbook on it.

 

Again, no.

[arcane]

5 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

And yet I DON'T get mezzed on X% of the characters I play. Why should I have to rely on mez protection from teammates on Y% of characters when I don't on the original X%?

Pretty standard dynamic for an MMO to have some classes be more durable than others........

[arcane]

4 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Prove it. This game has a ridiculously long history with being based PRECISELY around xp/time.

Uh.. make a broad range of characters including things like an FF defender, do your little solo xp/min calculation, and come back and tell me how this game’s archetypes are balanced around XP/min. 

[Arbegla]

13 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

And yet I DON'T get mezzed on X% of the characters I play. Why should I have to rely on mez protection from teammates on Y% of characters when I don't on the original X%?

 

Bill, I've hit the point where I'm not sure if you're serious or not. You're a highly respected long term player, and while I do understand the frustration of lack of Mez Protection on squishy characters, that's almost entirely the point of those characters.. They do something at base value that characters with mez protection can't do. Usually they have a range preference, or offer buff/debuffs that have multiplicative benefits, etc.

 

Yes, your highly specific and fine tuned characters might be able to do things better and faster then a typical base value melee character could do, but that doesn't mean others can. That's the balance.

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 minutes ago, arcane said:

Pretty standard dynamic for an MMO to have some classes be more durable than others........

 

Ok. But without proof that they can add to a team environment in a way that balances their inherent squishyness, the argument holds no water. Every character should be in balance with every other character. Too bad the all scrapper ITFs are winning on completion time.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, arcane said:

Uh.. make a broad range of characters including things like an FF defender, do your little solo xp/min calculation, and come back and tell me how this game’s archetypes are balanced around XP/min. 

 

LOL. I'm saying that balance is completely lacking and part of the reason is the lack of mez protection. Thanks for walking right into that.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Arbegla said:

Bill, I've hit the point where I'm not sure if you're serious or not. You're a highly respected long term player, and while I do understand the frustration of lack of Mez Protection on squishy characters, that's almost entirely the point of those characters.. They do something at base value that characters with mez protection can't do. Usually they have a range preference, or offer buff/debuffs that have multiplicative benefits, etc.

 

Yes, your highly specific and fine tuned characters might be able to do things better and faster then a typical base value melee character could do, but that doesn't mean others can. That's the balance.

 

See post about all scrapper ITfs. If squishies aren't bringing to a team an equitable tradeoff for their squishyness, then balance does not exist and should be corrected.

[arcane]

7 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

LOL. I'm saying that balance is completely lacking and part of the reason is the lack of mez protection. Thanks for walking right into that.

Balanced SOLO PLAY is completely lacking because it is plainly not intended by design. Feature, not flaw.

[Alchemystic]

11 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

I don't know about that..: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_massively_multiplayer_online_games

The term MMORPG was coined by Richard Garriott, the creator of Ultima Online, in 1997.^[20]

 

MMORPG, sure.

 

I was referring to just 'RPG' which came long before.

 

9 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

And they just put "playing" there because it's a game and you're supposed to play it, I suppose... not because *roleplaying,* in the sense of the forum section I just put there, was ever a thing dating back before and inspiring *roleplaying* video games. I suppose we're lucky they put "game" in there so we knew that's what it was and didn't confuse it with an awkward spreadsheet and wondered why we couldn't balance a checkbook on it.

 

Again, no.

 

You're assuming I meant "video" games when I made no such distinction, so your point is kinda moot.

 

Guess what defined those old tabletop RPGs? It was the old rogue/warrior/wizard trinity I mentioned earlier, the same thing that became a staple of RPGs for years to come.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Tyrannical said:

Guess what defined those old tabletop RPGs? It was the old rogue/warrior/wizard trinity I mentioned earlier, the same thing that became a staple of RPGs for years to come.

 

And yet I played a hundred campaigns with other ATs. Imagine that. In D&D, Cyberpunk and Champions.

[Arbegla]

14 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

See post about all scrapper ITfs. If squishies aren't bringing to a team an equitable tradeoff for their squishyness, then balance does not exist and should be corrected.

 

I still think its not quite an apples to apples comparison. There are a lot of things to factor in for an ITF completion time, and Mez really isn't one of them. Especially if you leverage speed clears, instead of kills alls (or even kill mosts)

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Arbegla said:

I still think its not quite an apples to apples comparison. There are a lot of things to factor in for an ITF completion time, and Mez really isn't one of them. Especially if you leverage speed clears, instead of kills alls (or even kill mosts)

 

Scrappers leading the way is due to their kill speed and ability to separate while surviving. Even an all shield ITF had a better speed time than all all corrputor ITF. Being able to break off and NOT rely on teammates means a faster completion time. Full stop.

[TemporalVileTerror]

I'm terribly sorry to see your thread get so entirely hijacked, @parabola.

 

In a potentially vain attempt, I would like to try to reiterate the intent here:

 

It's not about breaking free from a Hold.

It's about giving a player something to do to feel like they're still engaged with the game while Held.

 

All the existing gameplay tactics for freeing someone from Hard Control are still viable and valuable, but they're not infinite, universally accessible, or available at levels where Hard Control can hit the player.

This suggestion provides players with a way to continue playing the game under conditions where they would otherwise be unable to do so at all due to the extreme nature of Hard Control.

[arcane]

Just now, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Scrappers leading the way is due to their kill speed and ability to separate while surviving. Even an all shield ITF had a better speed time than all all corrputor ITF. Being able to break off and NOT rely on teammates means a faster completion time. Full stop.

So you’re really still talking about solo play when you think about it. Which has been covered and rebutted.

[Greycat]

13 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

 

Guess what defined those old tabletop RPGs? It was the old rogue/warrior/wizard trinity I mentioned earlier, the same thing that became a staple of RPGs for years to come.

 

The same trinity that is completely irrelevant in COH, you mean? The game that doesn't need a "holy trinity" (or any other combination, for that matter) for people to play perfectly fine?

 

And no, that is not what "roleplaying" is generally accepted to mean, no matter how much you want to hold on to that. Those same games had you playing a role in the sense of an actor in a story, not "you give these numbers, you give these numbers." That was the *point.* And still is. Roleplaying goes *way* back. Kids playing cops and robbers, or dressing up? Guess what they're doing. Rudimentary role playing. The tabletop RPGs? What's the point of them? "You walk into a tavern..." and begin to *tell a story* with your characters... IE, roleplay.

 

Edit: For that matter, I can roll up a fighter (the "role" you want to emphasize being the point) ... and never fight for tens, hundreds of roleplay sessions, instead using, say, my character's knowledge of an area, or their family's name and influence to help (or hinder) people, or their wealth, or their charisma (that has nothing to do with swinging a sword or holding a shield.) By your definition, I'm not "role playing" and am RPGing wrong. I'm not doing "my role." The adventure, in fact, has no "role" for me. Yet, I'm fairly sure every other roleplayer on earth would disagree with you, whether they're doing so with a group over mail, sitting around a table rolling dice and eating doritos, or playing a video game.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Greycat

[Tad Cooper]

You know what? I agree with Night and Tyrannical. Break frees and Clarion exist, so if you want to avoid mez you should have to use them. This should apply to everyone, so we should remove all mez protect from armor classes, and we should have all toggles drop if you get mezzed. That was what the game was originally balanced around.

 

Then we should implement Parabola's idea.

[Widower]

Hello. Don't attack each other. Thank you.

[Arbegla]

6 minutes ago, TemporalVileTerror said:

I'm terribly sorry to see your thread get so entirely hijacked, @parabola.

 

In a potentially vain attempt, I would like to try to reiterate the intent here:

 

It's not about breaking free from a Hold.

It's about giving a player something to do to feel like they're still engaged with the game while Held.

 

All the existing gameplay tactics for freeing someone from Hard Control are still viable and valuable, but they're not infinite, universally accessible, or available at levels where Hard Control can hit the player.

This suggestion provides players with a way to continue playing the game under conditions where they would otherwise be unable to do so at all due to the extreme nature of Hard Control.

 

As a means to get back on track, I do like this idea, but the devil is in the details, and implementing it, when there are already plenty of other ways to circumvent Status Effect might not be much value added.

 

Though, now that I think about it, it might be possible to create a new Accolade power that scales based on say, the Mez badges you have. So the more you've been Mez'ed, the more 'resistant' you are to them. Granted, this requires actually getting mez'ed in the first place, but it could make getting those badges actually useful instead of just a 'for show' thing, and it conceptually makes sense. The more you're affected by something, the more you would resist it.

(the mez badges are these: https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Restrained_Badge)