Arbegla Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 6 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said: No it can't due to how offensive toggles drop when mezzed. Offensive ones sure, but defensive toggles only suppress, and if this power is usable while mez'ed, it wont matter that much. Or you can make it a click with a 1 second recharge, that has an end cost (or some other effect, like -rech?) that grants Mez resistance, to get the Mez to drop faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbegla Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 6 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said: Irrelevant. Full stop. What matters at +4/x8 matters at +0/x1. I'd say its relevant in the scale of Balance, and what the overall game is balanced around. We can assume that game is balanced around +0/1, on SOs, because that used to be the old metric, but there are plenty of builds that can solo +4/8 with ease. Whatever the overall game is balanced around matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Z Bubba Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Arbegla said: Offensive ones sure, but defensive toggles only suppress, and if this power is usable while mez'ed, it wont matter that much. Or you can make it a click with a 1 second recharge, that has an end cost (or some other effect, like -rech?) that grants Mez resistance, to get the Mez to drop faster. Either way, the mezzed player still loses protection while mezzed AND has to spend the time (read: nerf to DPS) turning back on offensive toggles. Regardless, being mezzed still greatly decreases performance in a way those that don't get mezzed simply don't have to deal with. There is no intra-AT balance here. There's just a bad decision that should be corrected. Edited March 23, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbegla Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 5 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said: Either way, the mezzed player still loses protection from while mezzed AND has to spend the time (read: nerf to DPS) turning back on offensive toggles. Regardless, being mezzed still greatly decreases performance in a way those that don't get mezzed simply don't have to deal with. There is no intra-AT balance here. There's just a bad decision that should be corrected. Ok, without doing away with Mez completely, as they make sense thematically in a super hero based game and universe, what would you do to fix it? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchemystic Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 2 minutes ago, parabola said: Yup, another valid point. Having endurance spend being the cost for reducing mez duration seems the simplest thing but it would be problematic in end drain scenarios. Then again none of this is designed to replace the existing mechanics - waiting out the mez would work in exactly the same way as it currently does. Or we could try to come up with another opportunity cost for using the 'struggle' power. I know this is going to cause people to rip my head off, but... Maybe maybe tweak more powers to work like Accelerate Metabolism? powers that give you a boost to recharge could also reduce the duration of mez effects? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moka Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 I think we need a psycho mantis enemy that makes you plug your keyboard into a different USB slot. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Z Bubba Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 1 minute ago, Arbegla said: I'd say its relevant in the scale of Balance, and what the overall game is balanced around. We can assume that game is balanced around +0/1, on SOs, because that used to be the old metric, but there are plenty of builds that can solo +4/8 with ease. Whatever the overall game is balanced around matters. I would have to argue that Jack's goal of the game being balanced against the difficulty of +0/x1 has had no meaning at all since LONG before the snap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parabola Posted March 23, 2021 Author Share Posted March 23, 2021 Just now, MTeague said: I'm not sure I agree with that. I get that you're not talking about hard mez protection. But if you're able to break yourself out of early, you are kind of countering it. Do I get to have a mini-game to avoid taking excessive amounts of smashing / psionic / fire damage? Or a mini-game to avoid end drain or to-hit debuffs? I'll drop the objections after this last post, because I'm afraid it will go round-and-round in a loop. But I find it hard to say why this and not that? I'd rather "no" across the board. The difference is that in all other situations you are able to act. Against damage you can click heals, run away or fight back. Similarly against debuffs, they may reduce your options but they don't often remove them altogether. But hard mez simply turns your character off for a while and so completely removes your agency. I've no desire to remove mez but I do think it could be a better gameplay mechanic. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Z Bubba Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 Just now, Arbegla said: Ok, without doing away with Mez completely, as they make sense thematically in a super hero based game and universe, what would you do to fix it? Give all ATs some leve of mez protection either from a power in their set or from their inherent. It wouldn't even have to be much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcane Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 Well this has been an invigorating forum PvP session but it’s going in circles and I’m home now so gonna just play city instead. You win Bill. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchemystic Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said: Give all ATs some leve of mez protection either from a power in their set or from their inherent. It wouldn't even have to be much. Okay, but we're increasing the magnitude of all mezzes. Deal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TemporalVileTerror Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 The point is that there are still ways for the player to engage with the game, even while taking damage. Hell, even while being defeated! They can immediately exercise their player-agency and hit the "Hospital" button. The player still has a choice then, and a way to interact with the game. The only conditions where a player is completely at the mercy of the game is when they're Hard Controlled and out of countering options. Inspirations only go so far. Teammates can not be relied upon. Hard Control exists as a unique condition within gameplay where the game tells the player "Nope. Time to stop playing until we say you're allowed to again." I think there's room for improvement there, and I think this suggestion is one of the best we've had to address that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parabola Posted March 23, 2021 Author Share Posted March 23, 2021 Please don't take offence at this but I'm beginning to think certain people need to get a room and ... work some stuff out. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbegla Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 6 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said: Give all ATs some leve of mez protection either from a power in their set or from their inherent. It wouldn't even have to be much. What are we talking then? Most Mez's are in Mags of 3 to 4, so give every Archetype 5 points of Mez Protection, and give Melee characters double or triple that? Enough to shake off 1 Mez, but not enough to really matter if things get stacked? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbegla Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 8 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said: I would have to argue that Jack's goal of the game being balanced against the difficulty of +0/x1 has had no meaning at all since LONG before the snap. While I completely accept that argument, unless I'm horribly mistaken, no one else has come out to say what City of Heroes is balanced around. +0/1x used to be the standard of balance, and while we're WAY past that, what is it now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yomo Kimyata Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 Haven't read the entire thread, but I think this mechanic would lead towards the possibility of ATs with full mez protection having a slight chance of getting mezzed. And I am ALL FOR THAT! It's silly that one class is unmezzed 100% of the time by a mag 3 attack and another is mezzed 100% of the time by the same attack. Make everyone mezzable. 2 Who run Bartertown? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Z Bubba Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Arbegla said: What are we talking then? Most Mez's are in Mags of 3 to 4, so give every Archetype 5 points of Mez Protection, and give Melee characters double or triple that? Enough to shake off 1 Mez, but not enough to really matter if things get stacked? Nope. Honestly, I don't see why controllers and doms don't have better mez protection than the melee ATs since they are the master of mez. 4 minutes ago, Arbegla said: While I completely accept that argument, unless I'm horribly mistaken, no one else has come out to say what City of Heroes is balanced around. +0/1x used to be the standard of balance, and while we're WAY past that, what is it now? No clue. The current devs would have to decide that. Until they do, we're all grasping at BS. Edited March 23, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchemystic Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 (edited) 1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said: Nope. Honestly, I don't see why controllers and doms don't have better mex protection than the melee ATs since they are the master of mez. Same reason why the guy with an Assault Rifle isn't immune to bullets? 🤣 Edited March 23, 2021 by Tyrannical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Z Bubba Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 7 minutes ago, Tyrannical said: Okay, but we're increasing the magnitude of all mezzes. Deal? That would accomplish nothing so, no, no deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Z Bubba Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 Just now, Tyrannical said: Same reason why the guy with an Assualt Rifle isn't immune to bullets? 🤣 And yet he can be given the correct pool choices along with the correct secondary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchemystic Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 Just now, Bill Z Bubba said: And yet he can be given the correct pool choices along with the correct secondary. Well, if that's your argument, then select the right pool choices for mez protection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Z Bubba Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 1 minute ago, Tyrannical said: Well, if that's your argument, then select the right pool choices for mez protection. There aren't any that provide consistent mez protection. Try again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchemystic Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 Just now, Bill Z Bubba said: There aren't any that provide consistent mez protection. Try again. Combat Jumping, Acrobatics, Weave, Rune of Protection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbegla Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 6 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said: There aren't any that provide consistent mez protection. Try again. Interestingly enough, How do you feel about Sentinels? Also, Dominators get Domination, that provides pretty high levels of Mez Protection, and can be Perma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AerialAssault Posted March 23, 2021 Share Posted March 23, 2021 If the issue is Mez from NPCs lasting too long, just reduce the duration of Mez that NPCs use. Probably a lot of faffing around changing values, but we all know there are some egregious powers which have no business lasting as long as they do. I don't believe any NPC Mez should last longer than say, 10 seconds, which doesn't seem like a lot, but it's more than enough time for a Boss to pile drive you. If you're getting chain-Mezzed for longer than that then you've got much bigger problems, and should reconsider your difficulty choices. 2 Oh? You like City of Heroes? Name every player character. I'll be waiting in my PMs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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