Struggle free of mez effects

[Moka]

I think there's a certain confusion that damage is the only thing that matters in City of Heroes. I must agree that yes, a scrapper is always going to out-DPS a defender and will always be better at soloing an ITF and be more impressive for it. But I like defenders/controllers on my teams because they make my blasters/scrappers do even better. 

That and @AerialAssault and I like to make very challenging AEs that are usually torture without a good solid support. I run a SG called the Mavericks which we meme about having an all-damage meta. For a few AEs we've laughed about how we didn't need any support (such as a tanker or controller) because we did so much damage. The last two arcs have perhaps kicked us down the stairs to remind us it's better when there's a support AT there to catch us. And do keep in mind this is with solid built characters. Seriously, if you ever think support is useless or scrappers can do everything by themselves, just play some of the challenging AEs such as Linea's.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Moka

[Bill Z Bubba]

7 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

Interestingly enough, How do you feel about Sentinels? Also, Dominators get Domination, that provides pretty high levels of Mez Protection, and can be Perma.

 

I think Sentinels have mez protection and dominators have crappy mez protection until they have permadom.

[TemporalVileTerror]

Let's take a look at this mathematically . . . 

 

Let's say we make three Powers.

One is a "Quick Struggle" which costs 7.5 Endurance, applies a non-self-stacking -30% Recharge Debuff for 5 Seconds, has an unmodifiable Recharge of 2.5 Seconds, and provides a stacking +10% Resistance to all Hard Status Effects until the player-character is free of the Hard Control.

 

The player then get's hit by a 4 Second Hold.

They hit the Quick Struggle right away, and shorten their Hold Duration to . . . 3.6~ Seconds.

That's hardly gamebreaking to balance, right?  But it gives the player something to do.

 

Let's up that to a 10 Second Hold.

They can then hit the Quick Struggle three times!

First application, assuming they hit it straight away, drops the Hold Duration to 9.1~ Seconds.

Second application after 2.5 Seconds drops REMAINING Duration to 5.5 Seconds.

Third application after another 2.5 Seconds drops remaining Duration 2.3~ Seconds.

Grand total time Held reduced from 10 Seconds to 7.3~ Seconds (savings of 2.7~ Seconds).

And let's not forget that such a theoretical player would have to possess lightning reflexes to pull something like that off.  It's more likely that they'll only squeeze off 2 Seconds from their total Held Duration.  Still, and most importantly, the player is actively engaging with the game!  Which is a good thing!

 

The other two Powers could be . . . 

Exhaustive Struggle

Costs 15.5 Endurance, applies a non-self-stacking -20% Recharge Debuff for 5 Seconds, applies a stacking -10% Max Endurance Debuff for 10 Seconds, has an unmodified Recharge of 5 Seconds, and provides a stacking +30% Resistance with the same conditions.

 

Strategic Struggle

Costs 10 Endurance, applies a non-self-stacking -45% Recharge Debuff for 10 Seconds and a further fully stackable -5% Recharge Debuff for 15 Seconds, has an unmodified Recharge of 7 Seconds, and provides a stacking +20% Resistance with the conditions.

 

This variety of Powers offers the player a tactical decision to make, each with their own costs.  This adds depth to the gameplay and provides players the opportunity to consider "What's my best option in this moment?"

 

Suddenly Hard Control is no longer abruptly ending the player's interaction with the game.  It's now a whole new, nuanced situation for the player to actively engage with!

And for those who aren't interested?   It's entirely optional, and all existing counterplay to Control still exists exactly as it already did.

 

All of these values are, of course, just pulled out of my butt on the spot.  Someone like @Bopper could probably do a more intensive mathematical study and determine a more appropriate set of values.

[Bill Z Bubba]

9 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

Combat Jumping, Acrobatics, Weave, Rune of Protection

 

CJ - Only Immobilize

Acrobatics - Only KB and Hold

Weave - Nothing

RoP - Can't be perma.

 

Again, you fail.

[Greycat]

22 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Haven't read the entire thread, but I think this mechanic would lead towards the possibility of ATs with full mez protection having a slight chance of getting mezzed.

 

 

... well, technically they *do* have a chance of getting mezzed - if enough is stacked on them. (As I"m recalling, Ghost Widow used to be huge for this vs tanks. Mag100 hold, wasn't it?)

[Parabola]

2 minutes ago, TemporalVileTerror said:

Let's take a look at this mathematically . . . 

 

Let's say we make three Powers.

One is a "Quick Struggle" which costs 7.5 Endurance, applies a non-self-stacking -30% Recharge Debuff for 5 Seconds, has an unmodifiable Recharge of 2.5 Seconds, and provides a stacking +10% Resistance to all Hard Status Effects until the player-character is free of the Hard Control.

 

The player then get's hit by a 4 Second Hold.

They hit the Quick Struggle right away, and shorten their Hold Duration to . . . 3.6~ Seconds.

That's hardly gamebreaking to balance, right?  But it gives the player something to do.

 

Let's up that to a 10 Second Hold.

They can then hit the Quick Struggle three times!

First application, assuming they hit it straight away, drops the Hold Duration to 9.1~ Seconds.

Second application after 2.5 Seconds drops REMAINING Duration to 5.5 Seconds.

Third application after another 2.5 Seconds drops remaining Duration 2.3~ Seconds.

Grand total time Held reduced from 10 Seconds to 7.3~ Seconds (savings of 2.7~ Seconds).

And let's not forget that such a theoretical player would have to possess lightning reflexes to pull something like that off.  It's more likely that they'll only squeeze off 2 Seconds from their total Held Duration.  Still, and most importantly, the player is actively engaging with the game!  Which is a good thing!

 

The other two Powers could be . . . 

Exhaustive Struggle

Costs 15.5 Endurance, applies a non-self-stacking -20% Recharge Debuff for 5 Seconds, applies a stacking -10% Max Endurance Debuff for 10 Seconds, has an unmodified Recharge of 5 Seconds, and provides a stacking +30% Resistance with the same conditions.

 

Strategic Struggle

Costs 10 Endurance, applies a non-self-stacking -45% Recharge Debuff for 10 Seconds and a further fully stackable -5% Recharge Debuff for 15 Seconds, has an unmodified Recharge of 7 Seconds, and provides a stacking +20% Resistance with the conditions.

 

This variety of Powers offers the player a tactical decision to make, each with their own costs.  This adds depth to the gameplay and provides players the opportunity to consider "What's my best option in this moment?"

 

Suddenly Hard Control is no longer abruptly ending the player's interaction with the game.  It's now a whole new, nuanced situation for the player to actively engage with!

And for those who aren't interested?   It's entirely optional, and all existing counterplay to Control still exists exactly as it already did.

 

All of these values are, of course, just pulled out of my butt on the spot.  Someone like @Bopper could probably do a more intensive mathematical study and determine a more appropriate set of values.

Exactly the sort of thing I had in mind. As you say the values would all need testing and balancing but this general small, medium and large layout seems sensible.

[Alchemystic]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

CJ - Only Immobilize

Acrobatics - Only KB and Hold

Weave - Nothing

RoP - Can't be perma.

 

Again, you fail.

 

CJ - Immobilize, and defense, which allows you to avoid mez

Acrobatics - KB and Hold, you got that one right, well done!

Weave - Too bad! This one actually has immobilize resistance, and again, more defense = less chance to be mezzed.

RoP - Can be activated while mezzed, so doesn't need to be perma.

 

[Moka]

3 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

CJ - Only Immobilize

Acrobatics - Only KB and Hold

Weave - Nothing

RoP - Can't be perma.

 

Again, you fail.

On my blaster, I toggle between Rune of Protection and Melee Core to make sure I have near-perma mez resistance. That said, that's an Incarnate-levels only solution. I don't tend to play at +4 when I'm scaled down often, though, and if I do, my blaster doesn't usually have issues out-DPSing the content unless I'm really really out of powers. But I don't know if I'd solo +4/x8 a level 20 mission, per se. 

[TemporalVileTerror]

Thanks, @parabola!

It was more of an attempt at "Small, Large in One Way, and Large in A Different Way," but yeah.  

I think it's important to have the three options being different enough from one another that players are given an opportunity to ask themselves questions like:  "Ok, I just used my Nuke and I'm almost out of Endurance; so do I want to use the one which increases my Cooldowns, or the one which neuters my Endurance Recovery for a while?"

 

Something else I forgot to mention above is that they should probably also be tied to a mutual cooldown of at least 2.5 Seconds, so that a player doesn't just spam all three of them at the same time, but these Struggle Powers should all have a 0 Second Activation Time.

[Bill Z Bubba]

16 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

 

CJ - Immobilize, and defense, which allows you to avoid mez

Acrobatics - KB and Hold, you got that one right, well done!

Weave - Too bad! This one actually has immobilize resistance, and again, more defense = less chance to be mezzed.

RoP - Can be activated while mezzed, so doesn't need to be perma.

 

 

Defense isn't mez protection.

Resistance isn't mez protection.

When RoP isn't available, it isn't mez protection.

 

You still fail yet again.

[Bill Z Bubba]

17 minutes ago, Moka said:

On my blaster, I toggle between Rune of Protection and Melee Core to make sure I have near-perma mez resistance. That said, that's an Incarnate-levels only solution. I don't tend to play at +4 when I'm scaled down often, though, and if I do, my blaster doesn't usually have issues out-DPSing the content unless I'm really really out of powers. But I don't know if I'd solo +4/x8 a level 20 mission, per se. 

 

I would like to see your clear all times for DA repeatables at +4/x8. I suspect that they are admirable especially after being fully incarnated so that they are effectively only +1/x8. We're looking for somewhere in the neighborhood of 3 vet lvls per hour.

[Alchemystic]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Defense isn't mez protection.

Resistance isn't mez protection.

When RoP isn't available, it isn't mez protection.

 

You still fail yet again.

 

1) Defense can actually stop mez because if you successfully avoid the attack, you also avoid the mez.

2) I never even brought up resistance, so now you're just grasping at straws

3) When RoP isn't available, too bad, learn how and when to use it properly (ie, when you're already mezzed as I said before)

 

You use the word fail a lot for somebody who keeps coming up short.

[Bopper]

Hmmm...I got summoned into a thread with 138 comments in the 11 hours it has been alive? 

 

Cue the Grandpa Simpson GIF

[Moka]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I would like to see your clear all times for DA repeatables at +4/x8. I suspect that they are admirable especially after being fully incarnated so that they are effectively only +1/x8. We're looking for somewhere in the neighborhood of 3 vet lvls per hour.

Shucks! They're pretty good times. I'll record one later when I'm done with dinner and my evening rituals. 

 

That said, my blaster feels so overtuned I kind of don't mind the RoP change overall because at least it gives me a much needed kick where the sun doesn't shine. LOL.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, Tyrannical said:

Defense can actually stop mez because if you successfully avoid the attack, you also avoid the mez.

 

Nonfunctional whenever a mez hits. Not mez protection.

 

Just now, Tyrannical said:

I never even brought up resistance, so now you're just grasping at straws

 

21 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

Too bad! This one actually has *immobilize resistance,* and again, more defense = less chance to be mezzed.

 

Liar.

 

1 minute ago, Tyrannical said:

When RoP isn't available, too bad, learn how and when to use it properly (ie, when you're already mezzed as I said before)

 

Validation that when RoP is down it offers zero mez protection.

 

Fail after fail after fail. You might learn eventually.

[Alchemystic]

10 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Fail after fail after fail. You might learn eventually.

 

1) Build high enough defense and it wont be a problem

2) You were stating generic resistance, not mez resistance

3) Same can be said for Kuji-In Rin, Practiced Brawler and Inner Will... I suppose those powers are useless too?

 

Honestly, guy, all I'm getting from this is that your build is just as useless as your arguments.

 

Edited March 23, 2021 by Tyrannical

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

Build high enough defense and it wont be a problem

 

Any mez that lands proves defense isn't mez protection. It's mez avoidance.

 

2 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

You were stating generic resistance, not mez resistance

 

I have only been discussing mez protection. Quote once when I have said otherwise.

 

3 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

Same can be said for Kuji-In Rin, Practiced Brawler and Inner Will... I suppose those powers are useless too?

 

All of those offer mez protection.

 

3 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

Honestly, guy, all I'm getting from this is that your build is just as useless as your arguments.

 

Personal attack because you know you've been soundly trounced on every point every time and you can't handle it.

[Moka]

I think mezzes are ultimately part of the game and it's okay we get trapped by them. I have to agree with the opinion the mez timer for players should be reduced. 

 

One may argue it's jank Rune of Protection is a "required" power for squishies. I'd also argue it's jank that hasten is a "required" power. I don't think either really are. 

 

My ultimate thesis, with everyone's arguments combined:

 

Spoiler

Nerf Regen.

 

[Parabola]

10 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Hmmm...I got summoned into a thread with 138 comments in the 11 hours it has been alive? 

 

Cue the Grandpa Simpson GIF

And roughly a dozen of those posts have actually been on topic. Good luck finding them!

[Alchemystic]

3 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

All of those offer mez protection.

 

Yes, that was the point

 

Do keep up.

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

Yes, that was the point

 

Do keep up.

 

And either intermittent or not available to everyone.

 

Do keep up, failure boy.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Alchemystic]

Just now, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Intermittent mez protection.

 

Do keep up, failure man.

 

Again, yes, that was the point I was making.

 

Since it's obviously taking you a while to come to terms with the logic here, I'll explain further;

 

According to your argument, since RoP is intermittent it isn't viable.

 

Therefore powers like Kuji-In Rin, Practiced Brawler and Inner Will are also not viable.

 

And I can only assume if that's your thinking, then you're really not as good at building as you say you are.

 

A failure at it, one might say.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Tyrannical said:

 

Again, yes, that was the point I was making.

 

Since it's obviously taking you a while to come to terms with the logic here, I'll explain further;

 

According to your argument, since RoP is intermittent it isn't viable.

 

Therefore powers like Kuji-In Rin, Practiced Brawler and Inner Will are also not viable.

 

And I can only assume if that's your thinking, then you're really not as good at building as you say you are.

 

A failure at it, one might say.

 

RoP is not capable of being permanent mez protection, nor is inner will.

 

Kuji-In Rin and Practiced Brawler are both easily permable.

 

Your argument fails, again. As every other post in this thread has done.

 

[Troo]

11 hours ago, TemporalVileTerror said:

Instead I propose a Server Tray pops up with a few new buttons to push.

and for those who do not use the power trays..?

[Alchemystic]

Just now, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

RoP is not capable of being permanent mez protection, nor is inner will.

 

 

And yet, and example has been provided to you that inner will can be paired with RoP to give you perma mez protect.