Increasing Difficulty without Undoing Things

[Sarn]

Why not just set the player debuff and enemy buff options when selecting task forces or running mission through Ouroboros? 

[Doomguide2005]

On 3/27/2021 at 10:18 PM, Sarn said:

Why not just set the player debuff and enemy buff options when selecting task forces or running mission through Ouroboros? 

Well you could use both challenge settings (buffed/debuffed and higher level foes).  I'm a bit foggy on the exact strengths of the buffs and debuffs involved but I believe fighting +6's vs buffed +4's is probably a bit harder.   And +7 and up is almost certainly a rougher fight.  Even a +7 minion would be a hell of a tough (long) fight solo.

[Sarn]

9 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Well you could use both challenge settings (buffed/debuffed and higher level foes).  I'm a bit foggy on the exact strengths of the buffs and debuffs involved but I believe fighting +6's vs buffed +4's is probably a bit harder.   And +7 and up is almost certainly a rougher fight.  Even a +7 minion would be a hell of a tough (long) fight solo.

I can  mess around with it some more and get a better feel.

Update: I ran a Marauder mission in fully IO'd granite/stone with the buff and debuff settings. I kept the options for enhancements and inspirations, but I did not use inspirations. It was noticeable somewhat out of granite but I was gaining health back in granite, even with Marauder there. The mission was psy heavy but my stone tanker has no psy hole, so he's a good tester (well, relatively speaking there is still a hole in granite, but just barely and outside of it psy is nothing).  Conclusion, at least for my stone tanker, I was able to survive solo at +4/x8 without any assistance and also was able to do damage. On to the next trial, which I think won't work out so well).  

Edited March 29, 2021 by Sarn

[Sarn]

10 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Well you could use both challenge settings (buffed/debuffed and higher level foes).  I'm a bit foggy on the exact strengths of the buffs and debuffs involved but I believe fighting +6's vs buffed +4's is probably a bit harder.   And +7 and up is almost certainly a rougher fight.  Even a +7 minion would be a hell of a tough (long) fight solo.

I ran a trial with buff/debuff, null enhancements, and no inspirations against Nemesis in granite. I tried the Marauder mission outside of granite since it was psy heavy and I lasted about 2 seconds. I did not try in granite because my psy resistance and defense in granite is all IOs, so it was pointless. Anyway, against Nemesis in granite, I was able to survive for a good while against +4/x8 mobs with multiple bosses. I seemed to be able to stay on the HP gain while under Earth's Embrace and running Melee Core Embodiment; however, when those ran out, I watched my green bar turn to yellow within a minute or two and then to red (at which point I used a temporary ethereal shift and exited the mission). This has real potential. You actually will have to use temporary powers and inspirations to survive, I think. Suffice it to say that this makes grouping essential. I realize this is kind of obvious because, well, it's like/is standard powers without any enhancement, but I wanted to test it out with Incarnate abilities and temp powers, which make it maybe less obvious.  I think it does a lot, including making tankers and taunt valuable/necessary.  Now to find willing participants for further testing.  😁

Edited March 29, 2021 by Sarn

[Galaxy Brain]

I do agree there should be more options to "crank the dial up", though level shifts on enemies should only go so far. A +10 enemy will just be a snoozefest where each minion takes a minute to take down 😛

 

As for matched rewards, we definitely need that in place to incentivize using the harder content over "radio mish lft". The reason people opt for the easier content is that it is far and away the most efficient. Clearing 100 Council will net roughly the same Exp and inf as 100 Carnies (give or take), though the Council will take far less time per kill (even at balls to the wall speeds, the carnie phasing slows you down) and are far, far less dangerous for most folks. The rewards for fighting Carnies does not justify them as a choice over Council 99% of the time if you gave people the option as it comes to Rewards/Time. 

 

Part of this goes into a talk about rebalancing enemy groups to be more/less rewarding based on challenge (Maybe Carnies give much inf and drops, but are naturally much riskier to take on compared to Council) so that most all enemy groups roughly have a similar Reward/Risk/Time ratio. It'd be up to the players to decide which route to take tho.

 

On top of this, more knobs on Story Content / TF's that matter would be sick. I think Radios can stay as the classic "beat em up!" type of content that you can join for mindless roflstomping, with the previous change so that enemy groups are roughly equal in mind. For the story arcs and TF's though I think it'd be super cool to add more knobs to adjust difficulty like in Oroboros, allowing players to change the content in exchange for better merit rewards at the end and incentivizing them over radios even more.

[Haijinx]

TBH this Whole Difficulty Myriad of threads seem to boil down to- 

 

The game is easy (and power creep made it even Easier) -

• A lot of people are fine with that.  (Group 1)
• A lot are not.  (Group 2)

Some members of the First Group would like to shut the Second Group up.  Maybe they think they are helping them, whatever. 

• Thus they want to toss out some ideas to do so that will never affect them and the first group.  Thus the more considerate ones suggest more difficult "options" get added.  The less considerate ones tell the 2nd group to self nerf and find other 2nd group peeps to self nerf with them.   This is functionally the same thing though, really.  

Some members of the Second Group think there is still something in COH worth saving from in a semi-challenging gameplay sense, they remember how it has been in the past. 

• Thus they want to toss out ideas like buffing enemy groups, or changing mechanical problems like softcapping or permahasten or whatever.  Generally it depends on if they want to change the opposition or player side of the equation to make the game feel more like it used to.  I think they generally feel that once Group 1 tries out the new changes they will agree it makes for a healthier game or something.    

Me personally I would rather NOTHING IS DONE to fix the multiple difficulty and mechanical issues in this game, then to tack on some lame attempt at placation. 

 

I feel the mechanical issues are now so pronounced due to power creep, that they need to be addressed for the sake of the system itself.  It literally offends my borderline OCD sense of Game Design mechanical symmetry for the players to ride one rail of the system the way they do all the time.  I have after all been gaming for about 40 years or so, and thus its ingrained at this point. 

 

I also feel the AI of this game is bad.  And apparently it has been dumbed down over the course of the game.  That bothers me as well.  With our current power level, we can handle literally HORDES of baddies, why the hell do the enemy spawns sit and wait there for their turn to get killed?  They should aggro much easier.  Runners should go get their friends.  Why do they stop at elevators now?  They didn't always do that before.  Speaking of elevators, why are there never spawns camping them?  Or entry doors? And so on.  

 

But I get it that's not what most people want, Group 1 is the larger group, and it will get even larger as time goes on.  Group 2 will tend to vote with their feet, thus making them even smaller.  They may return once and a while due to nostalgia.  But it is the nature of the computer game industry to try and get us to play new games anyway .. so there is always something else out there.  

 

So I feel this fight is over.  The Keep the Status Quo, The Moar Easies, The I want to Feel Supers, The Anti-Nerf Brigade, This Game Should feel Casuals, The Munchkins and so on hold the field.  And that's okay.  I don't want to ruin the game for all those people.  I play COH for teams and those people are fun to play with too.  

 

So I think there are too many threads on this topic.  And sorry Steampunkette, but I don't feel this one was needed either.  Although I appreciate what you were trying to do.  

 

[Sarn]

10 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Well you could use both challenge settings (buffed/debuffed and higher level foes).  I'm a bit foggy on the exact strengths of the buffs and debuffs involved but I believe fighting +6's vs buffed +4's is probably a bit harder.   And +7 and up is almost certainly a rougher fight.  Even a +7 minion would be a hell of a tough (long) fight solo.

So, here's some numbers from stone with maneuvers, weave, stealth (yes, planning for the next issue), tough, stone skin. I was at 32 base defense to all (but not psy and toxic, of course). With kinetic dampener (temp) I was able to soft cap my S/L defense (at 48) and soft cap resistance to S/L/E (the E soft capped with the aid of kinetic dampener). This is with Melee Core Embodiment running. Just core and epic powers alone, I was at 32 defense in granite and 28 outside of it (except for 37 in minerals). Not for fire and cold though, because outside of granite (Brimstone Armor) that is a resistance toggle only. In granite with no Melee Core Embodiment, my base resistances with tough and stone skin were 75 for S/L, 50 for all others except for psy. I get to 80% for E with kinetic dampener. As you can see, LOTS of room for buffers. Oh, and endurance recovery is a nightmare without temp powers. I did not mess with the defense/offense/survival pack temp powers. They would help (a bit). In any case, it's definitely bring back empath running or a very balanced team. 

[Sarn]

30 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

TBH this Whole Difficulty Myriad of threads seem to boil down to- 

 

The game is easy (and power creep made it even Easier) -

• A lot of people are fine with that.  (Group 1)
• A lot are not.  (Group 2)

Some members of the First Group would like to shut the Second Group up.  Maybe they think they are helping them, whatever. 

• Thus they want to toss out some ideas to do so that will never affect them and the first group.  Thus the more considerate ones suggest more difficult "options" get added.  The less considerate ones tell the 2nd group to self nerf and find other 2nd group peeps to self nerf with them.   This is functionally the same thing though, really.  

Some members of the Second Group think there is still something in COH worth saving from in a semi-challenging gameplay sense, they remember how it has been in the past. 

• Thus they want to toss out ideas like buffing enemy groups, or changing mechanical problems like softcapping or permahasten or whatever.  Generally it depends on if they want to change the opposition or player side of the equation to make the game feel more like it used to.  I think they generally feel that once Group 1 tries out the new changes they will agree it makes for a healthier game or something.    

Me personally I would rather NOTHING IS DONE to fix the multiple difficulty and mechanical issues in this game, then to tack on some lame attempt at placation. 

 

I feel the mechanical issues are now so pronounced due to power creep, that they need to be addressed for the sake of the system itself.  It literally offends my borderline OCD sense of Game Design mechanical symmetry for the players to ride one rail of the system the way they do all the time.  I have after all been gaming for about 40 years or so, and thus its ingrained at this point. 

 

I also feel the AI of this game is bad.  And apparently it has been dumbed down over the course of the game.  That bothers me as well.  With our current power level, we can handle literally HORDES of baddies, why the hell do the enemy spawns sit and wait there for their turn to get killed?  They should aggro much easier.  Runners should go get their friends.  Why do they stop at elevators now?  They didn't always do that before.  Speaking of elevators, why are there never spawns camping them?  Or entry doors? And so on.  

 

But I get it that's not what most people want, Group 1 is the larger group, and it will get even larger as time goes on.  Group 2 will tend to vote with their feet, thus making them even smaller.  They may return once and a while due to nostalgia.  But it is the nature of the computer game industry to try and get us to play new games anyway .. so there is always something else out there.  

 

So I feel this fight is over.  The Keep the Status Quo, The Moar Easies, The I want to Feel Supers, The Anti-Nerf Brigade, This Game Should feel Casuals, The Munchkins and so on hold the field.  And that's okay.  I don't want to ruin the game for all those people.  I play COH for teams and those people are fun to play with too.  

 

So I think there are too many threads on this topic.  And sorry Steampunkette, but I don't feel this one was needed either.  Although I appreciate what you were trying to do.  

 

The game already has a fix for this. If it is not competitive, adjust mission settings and the level at which you fight and you are good to go. There is a sweet spot for everyone that way. 

[Sarn]

13 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Well you could use both challenge settings (buffed/debuffed and higher level foes).  I'm a bit foggy on the exact strengths of the buffs and debuffs involved but I believe fighting +6's vs buffed +4's is probably a bit harder.   And +7 and up is almost certainly a rougher fight.  Even a +7 minion would be a hell of a tough (long) fight solo.

I had the good fortune of testing things out just as I leveled. This produced the effect of being under very heavy buffs for defense, resistance, accuracy, and damage. Nemesis at +4/x8 were still able to whittle my health down outside of granite and using earth's embrace and the Melee Core Embodiment toggle, a good sign that healing would be necessary (which I think is a good indicator of competitiveness for a team). I'm running a tank though, and while non-granite stone w/o IOs is one of the weaker sets (becoming the strongest with IOs in my opinion), other characters are really going to need control and/or healing to keep from suffering a very quick defeat.  

Edited March 29, 2021 by Sarn

[Doomguide2005]

@Sarn For the most part, especially in a team, even small team, survival vs +6 or +7 foes isn't the problem encountered.  Most endgame builds can handle a foe with a +10% to hit buff defensively as the increase damage and debuffs will be largely mitigated by simply not happening due to still being at or above the defense cap (which vs a +7 is less than the Incarnate cap, 55% vs 59%).  The real problem is our outgoing effects and dps against the +7s have been seriously curtailed by the purple patch.  Against a +4 foe damage is 0.48 against a +7 you're at 0.08.  So a hypothetical attack doing 1000 vs +0's drops to 480 and from there to 80 vs +7's ... and any resistances haven't been factored in yet.

 

If nothing else the combat will take forever unless they get lucky and we get to use Vengeance etc..

Edited March 29, 2021 by Doomguide2005

[Sarn]

2 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

@Sarn For the most part, especially in a team, even small team, survival vs +6 or +7 foes isn't the problem encountered.  Most endgame builds can handle a foe with a +10% to hit buff defensively as the increase damage and debuffs will be largely mitigated by simply not happening due to still being at or above the defense cap (which vs a +7 is less than the Incarnate cap, 55% vs 59%).  The real problem is our outgoing effects and dps against the +7s have been seriously curtailed by the purple patch.  Against a +4 foe damage is 0.48 against a +7 you're at 0.08.  So a hypothetical attack doing 1000 vs +0's drops to 480 and from there to 80 vs +7's ... and any resistances haven't been factored in yet.

I'm a bit confused. I'm not fighting +6s or +7s, I'm fighting 54 at 51 or what would be 53 in incarnate content. That said, I miss a lot. This would probably be rectified by stacking tactics. I'm running tactics, focused accuracy and Kismet accuracy, so To Hit is about what it can reasonably be with one character. I'm not getting any accuracy out of enhancements though, so that's noticeable.  My poor stone tanker has died more times this morning than he has in a year. 😆

[Steampunkette]

On 3/27/2021 at 1:18 PM, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

I firmly disagree with you on reward capping.  Like you said, it would make powerlevelling more effective, it would make farming more effective, and everyone would be fighting +10 Council but would skip +3 Carnies.  I think if your character is not challenged by +4/x8 content, you are so well built that should be well past the need for rewards.  Without serious restrictions to keep people from farming the easiest content at higher levels for more reward, my worthless vote would be heck no.

It does not matter how great your build is with soft capping and damage resistance at 90%. Once an enemy is six levels higher than you, or further, it's damages multiplied both by its increased level and by the level difference between you and it.

 

Further its accuracy is magnified while yours is significantly hampered. 

 

To get an idea of how this would work in play get yourself to level 40 on some brute, scrapper, or tanker. Use whatever means are required to maximize your defensive abilities. Perhaps by four purple inspirations and several orange ones. Then pop enough of them to get yourself to 45% defense and 90% damage resistance, 85% if you are a scrapper. Then rush into a group of level 50 enemies while you are level 40.

 

You will die. You might be able to take out a few of the minions before you die. 

 

Normally your base to hit chance on an equal level enemy is 75%. Against enemies who are 10 levels above your level your base chance to hit is around 5%. If you manage to leverage 300% accuracy out of your build you'll wind up with a 15% chance to hit your target.

 

Similarly they will have a significantly higher chance of hitting you even through your soft cap defenses. Because the requirements for a soft cap against a target much higher level than you are significantly higher thanks to the inherent to hit buffs that they receive based on their increased level relative to you.

 

The reason that I say it might make farming marginally more effective is that if you get a good team together with enough buffs you might be able to clear a map in around the same time you've normally would at no more than plus six to your actual level. The drop rates would likely be higher but the kill time would be much longer under most circumstances.

 

https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Purple_Patch

 

Just linking the purple patch here for everyone's edification and to remind them that this purple patch is separate from NPC rank. So an arch villain who is much higher level than you is additional magnitudes more difficult.

[Arbegla]

I remember the days before super sidekicking where you could actually get +8 mobs in missions and power level lowbies for a bit. It was called bridging, and made leveling insane if you got it to work right.

 

But that character, was useless against +8s. There was no real way to go against the purple patch, and it really really causes issues.

 

Mechanics and smarter AI would be a much better way to address the difficulty issues. Just cranking the mobs levels higher would mean you would need to adjust the purple patch accordingly.

[Steampunkette]

1 hour ago, Arbegla said:

I remember the days before super sidekicking where you could actually get +8 mobs in missions and power level lowbies for a bit. It was called bridging, and made leveling insane if you got it to work right.

 

But that character, was useless against +8s. There was no real way to go against the purple patch, and it really really causes issues.

 

Mechanics and smarter AI would be a much better way to address the difficulty issues. Just cranking the mobs levels higher would mean you would need to adjust the purple patch accordingly.

"Mechanics" is super nebulous as a term... and would include increasing enemy levels above player levels to bring the purple patch back into play for 50s.

 

As to "Adjusting the Purple Patch"... no. The idea is to use it to create higher difficulty. Adjusting it to make it easier would be counterproductive. The idea is that if people want to play a -8 relative to the content for bragging rights they'd be able to. But there'd be no Bridgers in this scenario, 'cause super-sidekicking already exists.

 

When it comes to "Smarter AI" there are 3 big problems:

 

1) Developing smarter AI requires a huge investment of knowledge and effort.

2) The Paragon Studios Devs -created- better AI and the result was massive frustration as the NPCs spread out to avoid AoE, ducked behind walls for LoS fighting, etc.

3) AI is irrelevant once Immobilizes and taunts start flying 'cause then the mob is stuck and unable to attack anyone but the tank, negating any effort creating AI improvements.

 

And one little one:

 

4) Smarter AI generally means a change in tactics gets you right back to where you started. The new AI scatters under AoE? Hit 'em with an AoE Control first to stop that, then kill as normal.

 

Now by "Mechanics" what are you referring to?

 

If you're talking about increasing numbers the Purple Patch is just a way to do that with relatively lower dev time investment, since it means updating a series of spreadsheets and call tables with NPC levels going up to 60.

 

If you're talking about WoW "Floor Circles of Doom" you're more likely to get pushback from the various players of the game who dislike WoW style Dungeon/Raid Mechanics which are largely a sort of meta-mechanic.

[Arbegla]

37 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

When it comes to "Smarter AI" chanics" what are you referring to?

 

If you're talking about WoW "Floor Circles of Doom" you're more likely to get pushback from the various players of the game who dislike WoW style Dungeon/Raid Mechanics which are la

 

Things like the Black Knights in Night ward, that taunt you, preventing you from taking out prime targets or the Ghouls that make enemies literally swarm you (and then heal others when they die) 

 

Giving mobs access to more player-like powers, like confuse/taunt/placate/teleport foe can increase difficulty without just pumping up the numbers.

 

Yes, some "floor is lava" mechanics can be used, like the lava hollows map in the first SSA and mobs with knockback or repel. Environmental effects added to maps so say, if you're in a warehouse with energy or fire damage, the warehouse is now on fire (and you have to avoid it or take damage) 

 

Things like the Warwalkers blasts or even the Shivan boss in the Galaxy tutorial. Heck, just giving Hellions access to moltov cocktails made them harder, the Skulls revamp made them a little bit more challenging, and all that was was giving them access to more powers and status effects.

 

Using more cold/water based based powers for the slows and -rech. Giving more mob groups access to heals/rez/summon powers.

 

There are plenty of ways to increase difficulty besides just "turn everything to 11 and smash into the purple patch!"

[Steampunkette]

1 minute ago, Arbegla said:

 

Things like the Black Knights in Night ward, that taunt you, preventing you from taking out prime targets or the Ghouls that make enemies literally swarm you (and then heal others when they die) 

 

Giving mobs access to more player-like powers, like confuse/taunt/placate/teleport foe can increase difficulty without just pumping up the numbers.

 

Yes, some "floor is lava" mechanics can be used, like the lava hollows map in the first SSA and mobs with knockback or repel. Environmental effects added to maps so say, if you're in a warehouse with energy or fire damage, the warehouse is now on fire (and you have to avoid it or take damage) 

 

Things like the Warwalkers blasts or even the Shivan boss in the Galaxy tutorial. Heck, just giving Hellions access to moltov cocktails made them harder, the Skulls revamp made them a little bit more challenging, and all that was was giving them access to more powers and status effects.

 

Using more cold/water based based powers for the slows and -rech. Giving more mob groups access to heals/rez/summon powers.

 

There are plenty of ways to increase difficulty besides just "turn everything to 11 and smash into the purple patch!"

 

None of what you've described requires "Smarter AI". It's just making new NPCs.

 

Access to more player-style powers? I'm down. I like the taunts and the force-taunts the ghouls do. Teleport Foe would be interesting... especially with Fold Space on the board.

 

But then you're just creating new NPCs and most likely NPC groups. If you drop some Teleporters and Taunt-Forcers into the Council as it stands, players will just prioritize -that- target and nothing else will change. You'd also have to mess around with the narratives of those groups to add them in. So making new groups is more immediately engaging for them .

 

But that doesn't really "Increase Difficulty". That just creates another group that you avoid, like Invulns avoiding the Carnies and most everyone avoiding the Circle of Thorns for most of their leveling career.

 

I'm absolutely down for more NPC groups. 100% down for more interesting NPC powerset options. I'm even down for revamping the extant villaingroups to make them more interesting, too...

 

But at the end of the day? A Judgement Fireball and a Blaster Tier 9 don't care who the Blaster is targeting as long as there's other enemies nearby, 'cause those things are addressed "To whomever it may concern". To actually increase the difficulty in the light of the sheer huge numbers players are able to access pretty much requires increasing the numbers the NPCs are working with. Otherwise all the Teleport Foe powers will just miss 'cause Softcap, y'know?

[Arbegla]

I mean, they added powers and whole new mob types (Death Dolls, Girlfriend from Hell) to the hellions and skulls without making whole new groups, or really addressing it via a backstory.

 

Tsoo also got access to kinetic melee in the "Chi Master" and freakshow got access to Electric Control in the super stunners. 

 

Give council war wolves actual taunt, they already do the animation for it, and it makes sense without having to adjust anything. Give the Vampyre confuse powers. Again, thematically it makes sense, and doesn't really need a backstory.

 

The level 50 Tsoo are a very mixed bag of things that get thrown at you, and it still fits in the theme of Tsoo without being a whole new group.

 

"Improved AI" doesn't always mean fancy scripts, it could just mean giving the existing AI access to new toys.

[Steampunkette]

Improving the enemy's AI -flatly- means more scripting of AI.

 

Handing a robot designed to swing a hammer an axe to change the job it can do does not change it's AI. It's still just mechanically swinging the heavy end toward the target so long as XY and Z parameters are met. This isn't Smarter AI it's just a new tool.

 

As to the Girlfriends from Hell and Chi Masters and stuff:

 

You're not talking about adding some more damaging/summoning powers. You're talking about giving them access to strategy-changing abilities.

 

When you face a Chi Master or two in a pack of the Olympic Whirling Hands Team you're not making a significant tactical restructuring in place of a couple of Ancestor Spirits. It's still just incoming damage from a Lieutenant. Have that Chi-Master teleport the party's support character into the middle of that Whirling Hands Team to get stunlocked to death and you're actually forcing a tactical change.

 

And that tactical change is: Spike the Teleporter first, then clean up the rest.

 

At best you're basically adding a Sapper to a spawn. Not in direct function (Fuck Sappers, obviously) but in targeting priority.

 

And creating a new group based on these powers and tactical changes means pretty much the same thing, unless most if not all of the members of the group can use the new tactic to change how things play out.

 

But that still means players have to specifically seek out missions with -that- villaingroup to get the marginally more interesting but not significantly more difficult fight.

 

Also the Splats thing is another "More interesting not more difficult" thing, though I didn't really express that, before.

 

Because -all- of this still relies on the same base-game system where powers have to hit to have an effect and players who are softcapped or teleport resistant or whatever else can just ignore the new special interesting mechanics you're putting out and smack things around.

 

Seriously. Paragon has fires and if you're 90% Fire Resistant or 45% softcapped you can stand in it and not a single Empath will shout over Ventrilo "-50 DKP For standing in the fire!" 'cause it misses.

[Doomguide2005]

---

Likely they need to do multiple things to help 'the difficulty problem' .  Smarter AI is one way to do that.  Part of the issue, I suspect, is making new mobs to add to the difficulty is probably a trickier balancing act, less predictable than just adding to the notoriety range especially if the mob is minion rank vs Lt vs boss rank since minions show up at all settings.  Expanding the level range has the advantage of being more predictable and entirely optional as it is under player control.

 

@HaijinxI believe you missed a 3rd, not insignificant group, those who want to occasionally push the envelope but not always or constantly.    They think the game is easy and often that's preferable but other times we want to be challenged and explore the limits of what a particular build can do.

[Oubliette_Red]

On 3/29/2021 at 8:51 AM, Haijinx said:

TBH this Whole Difficulty Myriad of threads seem to boil down to- 

 

The game is easy (and power creep made it even Easier) -

• A lot of people are fine with that.  (Group 1)
• A lot are not.  (Group 2)

<snip>

 

 

You are missing a group:

• People that still find the game challenging as is (because they have no interesting spending hours in Mids eeking out every last .02% of damage/resist/etc)

What I'm against is a wholesale change to the game that impacts every player regardless of their playstyle preferences. What I am for is providing players with tools that allow them to crank up their own difficulty.

 

[Doomguide2005]

1 hour ago, Oubliette_Red said:

 

You are missing a group:

• People that still find the game challenging as is (because they have no interesting spending hours in Mids eeking out every last .02% of damage/resist/etc)

What I'm against is a wholesale change to the game that impacts every player regardless of their playstyle preferences. What I am for is providing players with tools that allow them to crank up their own difficulty.

 

Key words here:  'wholesale', 'every' and 'own difficulty'.

 

Amen

Edited March 30, 2021 by Doomguide2005

[MsSmart]

Sweetie:

 

     Having bunches of 50s, and all classes a covered, with full IOs and T4s, I like, as I said before, the idea of more challenge.

 

     That said, just about every suggestion made, impacts support classes far more than melee classes; and frankly support classes already have all the challenge they want and then some.

 

     Why not recommend, melee oriented challenges, and leave the support classes alone? This way the melee can experience challenge, the challenge they keep asking for and richly need.

 

     For example, instead of the anti-support lets de-buff defense, why not de-buff resistance, why not have creature attacks that normally ignore, guess what - defense, ignore resistance instead. how about having status effects that ignores melee protections? They can, as usually told to support, carry break frees. Instead of the anti-fly attacks (which focuses on ranged), how about anti-jump? (which would focus mostly melee).

 

     Why not redo the IOs a bit, instead of the support goodies being in the 4,5,6th set, be instead on the first 3; and the melee sets be reversed as well, so they get to enjoy the ridiculous level of challenge it takes to optimize.

 

      I know some of these suggestions are down right scary to the melee community and they would obviously would not want their status quo broken, but they are the ones that are asking for more challenge, so why not give it to them and spare the overly abused support classes?

 

Sue

Edited March 30, 2021 by MsSmart

[ZacKing]

Why don't people run the existing AE content that's designed specifically to be more challenging?  or better yet, create their own stuff with custom NPC groups that are all EBS and AVs if they want tougher fights?  stuffs there, people just don't use it.