Farming and marketing. Farmketing.

[Ukase]

A fair question, Andreah. That opportunity cost of TIME has made me question the wisdom of the crafting/converting/selling vs simply vendoring all but the very rare and pvp drops. 

And that's the rub in my motivation to test it. No idea really what the active non-market farmer is doing with their drops, not a clear idea anyway. When they say they sell it - are they selling them on the AH, only saving crafting time? or are they simply vendoring the red fortune recipes for 5k? instead of crafting and converting and getting at least 5M? Some might be, some might not. It's a difficult thing to measure, because there's probably a lot of variation in this loosely called "strategy". 

1. Vendor the salvage when full. Vendor all but purples when full. 
2. Vendor some salvage. Vendor some recipes, Sell rare salvage and pvp and very rare recipes on AH.
3. Vendor unneeded common salvage after crafting Red Fortunes, Titanium Coatings and Doctored Wounds (and other specific rare, very rare and pvp recipes that may drop )

The pure farmer who doesn't market may be laughing at all of the marketers all the way to the inf bank. But I doubt it. I think the afk farmers with multiple accounts that craft, convert and sell the drops fare better from an inf perspective.
I would even venture the more successful of us have even taken a step back from aggressively afk farming. Maybe one or two accounts run in the background while we actively play on the other one - leading SG hamidon raids and having the sheer stupidity of tanking hamidon but forgetting to take an EoE before entering the goo. Leading various traditional leveling teams, trials, etc. 

I know one fellow made me jealous for a moment when I heard he had 8 accounts. He doesn't play in an office, it's more like a lair. He's got an array of monitors, and multiple PCs. At this scale, you could make the case that just the passive influence from simply going in, clearing for the most part on #125 (Asteroid), exiting, vendoring when full, resetting would outpace the afk-farmarketer, but then there are afk-farmarketers who may have a similar crazy set up that are must be a bit more of a slave to their farmer, as they must craft, and convert. 

There was a time - and still is, when I would simply clear, exit, SELL ON AH, then enter, begin to clear, craft, and convert within the mission, and sell upon exit after clearing. When you stash a few of each rare salvage in your /vault, you can pluck the rares needed. Or, just not craft those and wait until the required salvage drops. The problem is - while I'm clearing while I'm crafting and converting, it takes time away from badging and playing, and trying to be at least a semi-good citizen for our community. Helping folks with answers to questions, avoiding heated discussions in help channel over the whole use shards vs. threads debate, helping folks beat up on difficult EBs and AVs, and actually starting and completing story arcs. And the latter is why we all wondering into the area of farming and marketing in the first place, right? 

I don't think there is an optimal solution that would fit everyone. You just have to find the balance of optimal paths that works best for you, whomever you may be. I know someone who LOVES to farm. They venture out into the rest of the game only rarely. They're in my sg, and they don't want to reveal their lack of experience in the rest of the game. I'm still surprised that some folks have no idea where Firebase Zulu, and The Cascades are, nor how to get there. So much is behind the curtain left to explore for them, I'm a bit envious. But, they do know farming. I saw them with three accounts, two following the first, alternating judgements and destinies and when not recharged, using the one to throw fireballs and such. They like it. To me, it's interesting, but I could never do this for more than 30 minutes or so. Too dull for me. But, I've been there, when the inf gains and the drops would raise my dopamine levels and give me the motivation to continue. We're all going to do things differently for different reasons. If I can be helpful, let me know. I won't give you a large chunk of influence. But, if I'm ever asked how, I will share my methods. If I keep a secret, it's only because it may be something I've learned from someone else who told me not to share that secret, so I respect it. 

[Yomo Kimyata]

57 minutes ago, Andreah said:

 

I wonder about the time efficiency of the converter game on the usual grab-bag of recipes drops from say, an hour of farming.

 

13 minutes ago, Ukase said:

That opportunity cost of TIME has made me question the wisdom of the crafting/converting/selling vs simply vendoring all but the very rare and pvp drops. 

And that's the rub in my motivation to test it. No idea really what the active non-market farmer is doing with their drops, not a clear idea anyway. When they say they sell it - are they selling them on the AH, only saving crafting time? or are they simply vendoring the red fortune recipes for 5k? instead of crafting and converting and getting at least 5M? Some might be, some might not. It's a difficult thing to measure, because there's probably a lot of variation in this loosely called "strategy". 
 

 

These two thoughts are exactly why I posted this topic, and I'm endlessly fascinated with coming up with "best" strategies.  But at the end of the day, the strategy just needs to be "good enough".  I don't mind in the slightest when someone tells me they spent 100 merits on an ATO, or 600 on a full set, when they have 10k more merits and they don't feel like dragging and dropping 30k converters into the AH interface.   This game is an embarrassment of riches, so "good enough" is probably good enough!

 

Based on some of the feedback in this thread and in many others, I am concerned about AFK farming.  I'm not sure if I'm concerned about it from an economic standpoint (inflation fears) or from a moralistic standpoint.  Probably the latter.  I *think* the GMs are actively trying to discourage it, but that's beyond my paygrade.

 

My current "optimal" lvl 50 farming strategy (starting with empty inventory and running a full series of 5 #125 missions):

 

1.  Sell all SOs at vendor.

2.  Sell all common IO recipes at vendor.

3.  Separate set IOs into keepers and duds.  Keepers include purples, pvp, anything else that doesn't require rare salvage, any recipe that I would want to equip or easily convert).  Vendor dud recipes.

4.  Open up workbench and craft everything you have salvage for.  Bid for salvage you are missing at buy-it-nao prices (which generally are 500k for rares, 1-2k for uncommon, 250 for common although I've never needed to buy a common yet.)

5.  Vendor unused white and yellow salvage (or AH if you prefer), AH unused rare salvage.

6.  Play "What Do I Do With That?" with your crafted IOs.  Put them on the AH.

 

I find that this is adding at least 5-10mm a series to a more basic strategy that would involve just putting everything on the AH at 5 inf, but I'd like to quantify that at some future point when I have more time and interest.  I think that's a very conservative number, but it's within an order of magnitude.  Takes me a couple of minutes at the end of the run to do this and I enjoy it.  If I didn't enjoy it, and those few minutes were better spent starting the next run, then I guess that's ok too!

[iBot]

@Ukase Well you are in luck cause I'm one of those farmers that sells everything so I'll give you a run down of my thoughts here.  Quick side note, when I mention using merits to pick up a PvP recipe I mostly mean if there is one that you want for a build and the number for sale on the AH are low and / or you don't want to spend converters to roll for it I think it is acceptable to use merits for that one recipe.  Never to sell it there I agree the math says sell the converts/boosters/catalyst/unslotter.

 

Anyway...

 

When I'm done with a farm run I sell all SO and generic IO recipes at the vendor.  I sell any yellow or orange recipe that is not currently going for 10k+ on the AH at the vendor.  I sell all white, yellow, and orange salvage on the AH in lots of 10 meaning if I don't have 10 to list I wait.  I generally hold onto converters and catalysts unless I notice the selling price has spiked at which point I may dump a lot of 10 or 20.  That is the extent that I wish to invest in my inf making efforts after a run.  This is by no means the best when it comes to maximizing my profits but that is my choice.  It is quick, easy, and I don't have to spend a bunch of time using that pathetic AH interface to try to find sweet spots to target.  I get in, get out, and go on with mob bashing.  I know plenty of people that farm and then use the stuff they find to craft and convert to boost their profits and they sit in Pocket D spending 30-45 minutes doing so.  I don't have that kind of free time in game. 😜

Edited April 13, 2021 by iBot
meant greater than 10k

[Andreah]

Well, let me say that I believe (without proof) that if up-converting recipe drops from farming is worth the time it takes, there's a high chance that just low-bid buying recipes off the auction and upconverting them full time will be better than a mix of farming and upconverting.

 

There's a "pure" strategy of farming/selling, another of buying/upconverting, and a mixed strategy of doing both. And, iirc, there's a theorem in game theory which has some harsh things to say about mixed strategies in most situations. 

[Ukase]

19 minutes ago, Andreah said:

Well, let me say that I believe (without proof) that if up-converting recipe drops from farming is worth the time it takes, there's a high chance that just low-bid buying recipes off the auction and upconverting them full time will be better than a mix of farming and upconverting.

 

There's a "pure" strategy of farming/selling, another of buying/upconverting, and a mixed strategy of doing both. And, iirc, there's a theorem in game theory which has some harsh things to say about mixed strategies in most situations. 

A valid point, given the efficiencies discovered and implemented when doing repetitive things. 
I'd once thought running a map for tickets, as opposed to drops was better - because the 125 map, without even clearing it, like - maybe 1 minute into it gives enough tickets that the completion bonus of tickets maxes you out. And at 60-70 tickets per recipe in the random roll section...you get a ton of recipes - a lot more than you would organically, but you'd get no very rares or pvps. Nor the salvage to craft them. I thought it might be worth doing one run every so often, but it took me out of the pattern/routine I'd established so I let it go. 

There is one thing I remember from playing video poker  - and that's if you're going to play for the Progressive Royal, you have to let go of winners to keep the edge, as that edge is very, very small, and it requires perfect play. And you have to definitively know it. For if you have to take your time, the phrase "Study long, study wrong" comes to mind. The whole idea in this specific instance is to make a profit doing what you enjoy. But that profit should exceed what you would make in any safer job you could get and keep. But, I digress. Simply put, once you've found a path that makes you the influence you need, you stick to it - until you learn a path that will help you increase that influence with less effort, or less time, or more fun. Or some combo of all three. 

 

[Bionic_Flea]

1 hour ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

1.  Sell all SOs at vendor.

2.  Sell all common IO recipes at vendor.

3.  Separate set IOs into keepers and duds.  Keepers include purples, pvp, anything else that doesn't require rare salvage, any recipe that I would want to equip or easily convert).  Vendor dud recipes.

4.  Open up workbench and craft everything you have salvage for.  Bid for salvage you are missing at buy-it-nao prices (which generally are 500k for rares, 1-2k for uncommon, 250 for common although I've never needed to buy a common yet.)

5.  Vendor unused white and yellow salvage (or AH if you prefer), AH unused rare salvage.

6.  Play "What Do I Do With That?" with your crafted IOs.  Put them on the AH.

This is fairly close to what I do.

 

The main difference is that I generally will not buy salvage nor do I sell recipes (other than generics to vendor).  I craft what I can from salvage at hand and sell, convert, or store when I have something decent.  Since I am not paying for the salvage I consider it "free" even though I realize that there is the opportunity cost of a lost sale.  I do this with dedicated fire farmers as well as all my other characters. 

 

I have a little over 2 dozen 50s over two accounts that I generally play one at a time unless PLing something new and I alternate PLing with old fashioned leveling, mainly solo at the highest setting I can and throw in an occasional TF or I-trial.  Each one starts with 200-300k start-up cash to buy the various P2W goodies and a build.  By the time they are 50+3 (my personal "done" spot) they have already made up those funds and frequently doubled it.  And once they are done I might have each character place lowball bids on recipes and IOs to convert and sell.

 

The dedicated farmers tend to stay in Pocket D AE to farm, PL, vendor, and market.  Since they rarely leave except to get accolades they have few merits so they buy lowball bid converters.

 

[Andreah]

2 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

when they have 10k more merits and they don't feel like dragging and dropping 30k converters into the AH interface

😄

 

This is why I generally prefer to go the boosters route from my merits. It's often a wash, value/merit-wise, but the boosters are 15x less clicking/inf.

 

And this leads me to another part of the equation; it's not just Value vs Time vs Clicks vs Fun, but also Complexity. A wealth building strategy that is complex will appeal to some people and less to to others. For example, if there's a simple and infallible steps 1, 2, 3, method, that's not complex. One's fingers can learn the motions to do it efficiently. But if one must stop and collect information, evaluate options and make choices to make a strategy work, that's more complex. Most people get overloaded by that fast.

 

When I give advice to other players, I tend to tell them simple rules that I know will work for them, instead of complex ones that will require they look at the market and figure out best options. It's easy to tell people to vendors all the X's, and list all he Y's for 1 in the /ah. A little more difficult to flip rare salvage, harder to explain how to do the conversion game from low-ball snipes.

 

And for myself, there's a limit to the complexity of a scheme I will tolerate. For me, there's a fine line between an interesting pastime that supports my active multi-player gaming, and one that is, frankly, work I ought be paid real money for.

[iBot]

1 hour ago, Andreah said:

Well, let me say that I believe (without proof) that if up-converting recipe drops from farming is worth the time it takes, there's a high chance that just low-bid buying recipes off the auction and upconverting them full time will be better than a mix of farming and upconverting.

 

There's a "pure" strategy of farming/selling, another of buying/upconverting, and a mixed strategy of doing both. And, iirc, there's a theorem in game theory which has some harsh things to say about mixed strategies in most situations. 

If memory servers you are talking about a Nash Equilibrium but that generally applies to your optimal strategies when confronted with choices involving other players and trying to predict the best result for you based on what they choose.  Is also referred to as the Prisoner's Dilemma.  However in this case I think the correct analysis would be closer to maximizing profits relative to time spent.

 

Your thought that low bid buying works is correct and there are people who do only that.  They purchase blocks of yellow recipes, craft, convert, and sell result.  If you factor in the cost of the craft, convert, and market fee sometimes you come out ahead if you get really lucky on that convert.  Other times you will actually lose on the transaction because of the lost profit that could have been made by just selling the converters outright.

 

So really it depends on the final goal as well.  The strategy used to gain maximum inf is different then the strategy used for fun.  Personally I do what is fun and the extra inf is a bonus.

[Yomo Kimyata]

1 hour ago, Andreah said:

Well, let me say that I believe (without proof) that if up-converting recipe drops from farming is worth the time it takes, there's a high chance that just low-bid buying recipes off the auction and upconverting them full time will be better than a mix of farming and upconverting.

 

There's a "pure" strategy of farming/selling, another of buying/upconverting, and a mixed strategy of doing both. And, iirc, there's a theorem in game theory which has some harsh things to say about mixed strategies in most situations. 

 

Well, yeah.  You can come at it from the direction of "hey, I got a Quickfoot lvl 50 drop!  I can craft that, convert to a Celerity, and either sell or convert more for quick profit!"  And then there's "hey, why don't I sell this one and buy back one at a lower price level and save oer 250k?" and then "hey, why don't I buy ten, no, fifty of them!" and so on and then you are well past farming and in the black hole of the marketing zone.  Even with people five boxing it, I don't see how farming (including drops) comes even close to the rates that active marketing does. 

 

In this thread, I'm trying to come from it from the direction of "hey, I like farming.  How can I goose my returns with some quick marketing?" and to see if that goosing is easy or worthwhile or not.  My jury is still out on that right now.

[iBot]

12 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

In this thread, I'm trying to come from it from the direction of "hey, I like farming.  How can I goose my returns with some quick marketing?" and to see if that goosing is easy or worthwhile or not.  My jury is still out on that right now.

I suppose to answer that question we'd need to answer this: "Do you earn more inf by bashing more mobs in the time it normally takes to craft->convert->sell?"  Taking into account the cost of the craft, convert, and sell.  The time invested in each activity I think is important because without that calculation it isn't a fair comparison.  Beyond that I'd say the combination is probably the best since you are already farming but you personally have a ton of knowledge about where sweet spots in the market are so you don't need to spend a bunch of time doing research which is another sunk cost that is usually ignored in the discussions but skews the calculations.

[Andreah]

3 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

My jury is still out on that right now

Mine too.

 

20 minutes ago, iBot said:

If memory servers you are talking about a Nash Equilibrium but that generally applies to your optimal strategies when confronted with choices involving other players and trying to predict the best result for you based on what they choose.  Is also referred to as the Prisoner's Dilemma.  However in this case I think the correct analysis would be closer to maximizing profits relative to time spent.

That's the one, and yes, it doesn't fit perfectly, more as an analogy. It's been many years for me since my coursework.

 

I also think of the Extreme Value Theorem, which I believe is a more accurate fit. In this case, the function is the expected value of the influence return per unit time invested, and the range is the mix of time spent on two strategies -- pure farming & selling, and pure snipe conversion marketing. Call this F(x), where F is the return per unit time, and x is the fraction of time spent farming ( (1-x) would then be the time spent marketing). F(0) is the return of pure snipe/conversion/marketing, and F(1) is pure farming/vendoring/auction listing.

 

In this case, if one can successfully argue that the mix points of these two strategies are always and only a linear sum of the two, then we would say that F(x) = (1-x) * F(0)+x * F(1) . And if that's the case and if F(0) =/= F(1), then the derivative of F on the interval (0,1) is always non-zero, so the extreme values (one minimum and one maximum) are the two end points.

 

It could be argued they are not linear if there's synergy between the two sets of actions, or useable overlap of steps, so that, for example, clicking that would need to be done twice in each pure strategy, but only needs to be done once in the mixed strategy; or data lookup that would not need to be done in a mixed strategy. I can think of one case already -- farming will get you a lot of invention salvage, and the random salvage will on average speed up crafting even if the cost is a wash.

 

On the whole, I think there is non-linearity, but believe, again without much evidence, that it's weak.

[iBot]

@Andreah ... 🤑 ... well all I can say is that is way more math than I'd apply to this situation but very interesting and insightful.  I do know this much.  Bashing mobs nets more inf than not bashing mobs.  Selling items at a vendor nets more inf than not selling them but not as much as certain items on the AH.  Opportunity costs for all three activities differ slightly but I think time probably cancels out.  Total inf is then expressed as M+V+A.  Maximize each of those values and you have the highest possible inf gained for the invested period of time.  M is inf earned by defeating a mob.  V is inf gains by selling to vendor - time spent getting there.  A is inf gained selling on AH minus the costs of market fees, salvage, crafting, and converters.  I'm not sure how to include drops in the A but I suspect some sort of time invested there.

[Aeroprism]

Farming is fun and relaxing and it's an easy way to PL alts but, like everyone here said, doesn't even come close to marketing numbers.  So if you want quick hard inf: Market.

However.

Farming can be helpful if you want to gear your alts without having to buy everything.  PVP and VR recipes drop reliably well and we can agree that those two rank among the costly stuff you need when you make a build. Most PVP Enhancements will cost what...  8-9 Million?  Farming will net you easy PVP recipes. Craft them (cost: 500K, not gonna count the materials because if you farm, you literally swim in orange salvage),  Then convert it to what you like. Average 1 Mil worth of converters. Then catalyze it if you like for another 1.5 Mil.  Total cost: 3 Mil. That's 6 Mil saved right there, for one enhancement.

So no, my farmer doesn't really bring in the cash, but she makes sure that my SG storage is always full of nice things. And not having to buy nice things is equivalent to being rich.

 

[Ukase]

On 4/13/2021 at 11:54 AM, Yomo Kimyata said:

In this thread, I'm trying to come from it from the direction of "hey, I like farming.  How can I goose my returns with some quick marketing?" and to see if that goosing is easy or worthwhile or not.  My jury is still out on that right now.

There's one thing that inhibits my encouraging farmer friends from marketing. Competition. And it's not my fear of them competing with me, or vice-versa, but the competition from other players. 

Consider this scenario. It is by no means ...common knowledge that I buy level 10 pvp IO recipes, craft and convert for sale. Nor have I kept this is a secret. Let us say I share this strategy with my sg. (I have)
Now, let us further assume only 3 of the sg members actually try this strategy. Only one of them actually gets the lion's share of the recipes, because they placed higher bids. 
The other two...logging in to see only a few recipes are bought, and that was only because the first person didn't have enough bids in. The third player may not get any recipes at all and think I'm a jerk for sharing such a horrible strategy. 

Then...turns out there's another player or five that have noticed that there are a large number of pvp ios that are not procs and will often sell for less than 5M, while the procs in the big three (as of this writing) sell fairly routinely for 8m to even 15M. This player is patient and probably only checks in once a day or three. Then they simply convert, with no crafting...and undercut the other players. They could even go so far as to be prepared to take a loss for a month just to drive others out of the niche! Or maybe only 1M profit is all they seek. Or maybe it's only 1 inf. Or even no inf. They could be planning and wanting to take a loss just for kicks to torture the ebil marketers. 
 

This is why I don't encourage in game friends to try marketing until they have the time and inclination to sit through a competitive period with patience - and to never put all the eggs in one basket. 

And, even worse, we all must realize that at any time, the HC devs could seed the market with pvp IOs because some are complaining that they are too expensive. One could rebut and say, well, anyone can spend 100 merits for one, so they'll never do that. Wrong answer! The merit vendor can issue rare salvage randomly, and it didn't stop the devs from seeding salvage. 

We never know with certainty what impact upcoming changes will have. Rumors are about changes in how procs work. Will their value tank, or skyrocket? Stay the same? Who knows, until we find out more about the prospective changes. 

It is for these reasons that I'm not convinced that goosing the farming with some marketing here or there is worthwhile. It certainly CAN be, but there will come times when it's not. And the folks that only dabble in the market won't likely know when to hold, retract and relist or pour it on. 

 

[Yomo Kimyata]

9 hours ago, Ukase said:

There's one thing that inhibits my encouraging farmer friends from marketing. Competition. And it's not my fear of them competing with me, or vice-versa, but the competition from other players. 

 

Thanks for this piece @Ukase, not just the snippet but the whole thing.

 

You're right, it's just not a big enough market for *everyone* to be making this kind of scratch.  And as I keep writing these guides, I realize that I'm kind of hoping that people take it and run with it because I love competition and I'm actually trying to foment more of it.  And yet, that's not for everyone and I can see how that could easily be uncomfortable for people who just want to make inf.  Farming may, in fact, be best for some.

 

But I want more competition!  So I can *crush* it!

 

[EmperorSteele]

I read that in the voice of the guy who runs Hydrolic Press Channel on Youtube =P

[Andreah]

19 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

it's just not a big enough market for *everyone* to be making this kind of scratch

Truth.

 

It is big enough for a few more people to dabble.

 

But if everyone went after it like the serious marketeers do, we'll we'd suddenly have an efficient, but unfun, market with base minimum profit margins on everything. 

[iBot]

I will push back a little bit on the idea that the market isn't *big* enough for a lot of players.  While I concede that certain niche points do get flooded at times, the thing I always tell people who ask is to diversify, diversify, and maybe diversify.  What works great one week may not work then next.  That doesn't mean the underlying strategy is poor just that you've got to adjust to market realities.  There will always be sets that are in demand because the min/maxer types say so.  There will always be sets that players wonder why they are even in the game.  The proximate opportunity is always to turn the undesirable into the desirable.
 

For example, after a farming session I'll list 10s of common, uncommon, and rare salvage.  Sometimes those items sell in a day or two.  Sometimes it takes a week.  A few times it has taken several weeks for the last of the common to sell.  I don't sell to get rid of it I sell for a profit meaning I don't list for 5 inf.  The point is it does sell which means that there is still room even at this stage for people that want that salvage NOW and don't want to wait the 15 seconds it takes to maybe fill a lessor bid.  It just takes patience to wait out the lower sells.

 

Same thing goes for crafting set IOs.  I list for what I think is fair given the cost of salvage, crafting, and listing in order to still make a profit.  That is the key piece of knowledge.  It is also why I don't bother with generic IOs since I've not figured out how to make a profit with them.  And while I certainly don't make billions every week, I've made enough to kit out each of the 27 50s I now have with builds that are good enough which I think was the original point of the exercise to begin with.

[Yomo Kimyata]

I guess my comment should be amended.  If someone wants to add some supplemental income to their game play, absolutely, there is room for everyone.  I heartily recommend *every* player with the interest to bid on a block of 10 yellow recipes and salvage at the end of a session, and to play rare roulette when you come back on.  I figure that's good for 20-30mm profit per session and diversified by nature.  I also heartily recommend dabbling in areas that you find interesting, a few here and a few there.

 

What there isn't much room for are more large scale operations, in my opinion.  I have a handful of sustainable factories that are good for nice profit and large (>50 units/day, sometimes significantly more).  I don't see any significant competition in those (and that was partly by design), but if it did come in then many shuvs and zuuls would know what it was like to be roasted in the Slor that day, I can tell you.

 

But there are plenty of smaller markets that move units more slowly.  And there always seems to be room in the LotG market.  I'm active there, but I'm not going to go through the effort of locking down that market!

[iBot]

19 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

What there isn't much room for are more large scale operations, in my opinion.  I have a handful of sustainable factories that are good for nice profit and large (>50 units/day, sometimes significantly more).  I don't see any significant competition in those (and that was partly by design), but if it did come in then many shuvs and zuuls would know what it was like to be roasted in the Slor that day, I can tell you.

😄

 

Fair point.  I know a lot of players that made insane inf early on because of the initial rush of "OMG! CoH is back and I HAVE to have all the stuffs" and we may return to that if the game ever gets the "Legit" stamp of approval.  I think it is why I enjoyed the write ups you were doing about the meandering road to riches.  Dedication can give higher margins but even us mere mortals can still use the market to increase our available funds with minimal effort.

[Yomo Kimyata]

Let me put it this way:  if I had twice as much time to devote to the utterly pointless accumulation of inf, I would not be able to double my rate.  Maybe a 50% increase?

 

Something like rare roulette is profitable and entertaining in smallish doses, but is inefficient in bulk in terms of time spent and tedium endured.  Yeah, one could put out 1,000 IOs a day that way (which would be good for a 2+bn profit), but I for one wouldn't want to!

[Andreah]

1 hour ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

And there always seems to be room in the LotG market

It's a very good market. Valuable item, most builds will have several, if not the full five. Not so big people will consistently recycle them. For some folks, it's the easy go-to destination for their convertering. And I know some people still use their merits to make LotG's to sell.  It's probably the single highest volume enhancement in terms of trades per day. 

 

Locking the LotG market would be possible, but I imagine it would take the market slots on several alts and a lot of constant wickering with bid/sell prices to do it. Ugh, no.

 

1 hour ago, iBot said:

Dedication can give higher margins

And this is the problem, increasing dedication to such a purpose often leads to having less fun. It becomes a grindy job. 

 

30 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Yeah, one could put out 1,000 IOs a day that way (which would be good for a 2+bn profit), but I for one wouldn't want to!

I did this once, 1200 in one day, just to see what the magnitude of the effort was. Not worth it. Oh, it was profitable, but I felt like I was not only swamping the market, but wearing my fingers out.

 

Depending on which market niches one is in, a sustained high effort is going to be noticed by other marketeers, and they'll probably respond cut-throat --  I know I would. Even if the reaction was "Darn, someone moved into my market in a big way, guess I'll leave", that player isn't going to stop entirely, they'll look for a new spot. And that will now have increased competition.

 

I notice the actions of other marketeers now and then; and I'm sure if substantial new ones entered the field, it would have effect. I encourage other players to dabble, and I teach them how to bid more smartly and what to sell from their normal play to get better deals. But I don't try to encourage enthusiastic new high-volume, high-effort marketeers. 

[iBot]

So we've come to the conclusion that:

1.) Farming with a dabble in marketing from there does give an increase in inf but it is not significant compared to pure marketing

2.) Dedicated marketing is a thing though tedious at times and down right boring to others

3.) As with most things in life this is best done in moderation

4.) Don't cross the streams

[Troo]

50 minutes ago, iBot said:

Don't cross the streams

+1

[Ukase]

On 4/19/2021 at 2:15 PM, Yomo Kimyata said:

Let me put it this way:  if I had twice as much time to devote to the utterly pointless accumulation of inf, I would not be able to double my rate.  Maybe a 50% increase?

 

Something like rare roulette is profitable and entertaining in smallish doses, but is inefficient in bulk in terms of time spent and tedium endured.  Yeah, one could put out 1,000 IOs a day that way (which would be good for a 2+bn profit), but I for one wouldn't want to!

That would indeed be tedious. Some days, the recipes come in faster than I care to craft and convert. I made the mistake of making an overflow bin, which had 96 IOs in it. Today, I was determined to get through it - which meant loading up the farmer with 70 of them, and I would convert while I burned. It didn't take as long as I expected, but it took longer than I wanted - and that was less than 100. I can't fathom 1k IOs. And that wouldn't even involve buying them - just plucking them from overflow bins...yeesh. It would likely take me 3-4 hours. 

Time is a precious resource. I can accumulate funds. I cannot accumulate time. (I guess if I were in prison, I might, lol) So, we have to market within our limits.