I had to defend the game's honor folks...

[KauaiJim]

1 hour ago, srmalloy said:

You could make the argument that, with the retention rate that City of Heroes had, its very existence challenged NCsoft management's preconceptions about what an MMORPG should be, so they nerfed it all the way into the dirt so that it would no longer exist as a counterexample to their fixation that high-churn team-centric cash-shop-based MMOs were the best way to go.

 

Too funny when you put it that way (and true).  Not only did he get his facts wrong, if anything CoX was an example of a game that wouldn't die despite the best efforts of those running it.  Reminds me of Funcom and AoC / TSW (the actual mmo's - not the garbage replacement versions they rolled out on Steam).  Two of the best mmo's ever if Funcom wanted to do something with them. When NCSoft gets even the faintest tickle of displeasure with their games they opt for pulling the plug instead of putting a little effort into marketing them and fixing a few things (I never really got into Tabula Rasa or Wildstar but they seemed fun and my brother, nephews and son were just getting into Auto Assault when they killed that.  As a business it's their prerogative, granted from a customer point of view it's a lousy way to go and amazing to me that companies can behave that way and still be in business.  This has all been discussed to death so I'll stop here.

 

But yeah, CoX was darn near the OPPOSITE of what he claimed. lol

Edited April 10, 2021 by KauaiJim

[Clave Dark 5]

On 4/9/2021 at 2:17 AM, KauaiJim said:

 

Otherwise, you might as well just blend em all up together and sell just one vanilachocolatestrwberry flavor. 

It's called "Neapolitan" and don't tell me how to play City of Ice Cream! 😡

[BjorJlen]

4 hours ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

It's called "Neapolitan" and don't tell me how to play City of Ice Cream! 😡

   lol...

   But... but... I was always taught not to play with my food!!! 😛

 

   @KauaiJim, I am not sure I agree with the notion that NCSoft's position "was an example of a game that wouldn't die despite the best efforts of those running it." Your statement defiantly does have validity to it, but as a person who tries to see the best in business and people (generally speaking), I do not think they deliberately axed CoH because it wasn't against  their preconceptions on what a MMO should be, and is. More like the numbers didn't add up for them is more likely, and from a business standpoint, it is a numbers/money game (pun intended lol). The population just wasn't up to what they figured it should be (as right or wrong as that might be), and as Stone Cold would say, "that's the bottom line, cause Stone Cold say's so". Businesses generally don't have little evil imps in a back room somewhere thinking of ways to sabotage their own products... most times lol. 🙂

Edited April 11, 2021 by BjorJlen
Making a point I just thought of...

[KauaiJim]

3 hours ago, BjorJlen said:

     @KauaiJim, I am not sure I agree with the notion that NCSoft's position "was an example of a game that wouldn't die despite the best efforts of those running it." Your statement defiantly does have validity to it, but as a person who tries to see the best in business and people (generally speaking), I do not think they deliberately axed CoH because it wasn't against  their preconceptions on what a MMO should be, and is. More like the numbers didn't add up for them is more likely, and from a business standpoint, it is a numbers/money game (pun intended lol). The population just wasn't up to what they figured it should be (as right or wrong as that might be), and as Stone Cold would say, "that's the bottom line, cause Stone Cold say's so". Businesses generally don't have little evil imps in a back room somewhere thinking of ways to sabotage their own products... most times lol. 🙂

 

You sort of read a bit too much I think from what I was saying.  Maybe it was the way I wrote it, if so my apologies.  However, my statement was about BAD BUSINESS DECISIONS.  Or at least waht I consider bad business desisions.  Not evil.  Evil is everywhere there are people.  Even here.  So is good.  Funcom and NCSoft are two mmo companies who have made business decisions that were most definitely done deliberately.  Whether they had 'evil' intent and were intentionally trying to suffocate their own children or they simply made a numbers call was not the point I was making.  The point I was making was that CoX still had a strong heartbeat when it died an untimely death.  Pretty much the opposite of what the angry guy was ranting about CoH in the OP.  Funny to me.  I REALLY do not wish to discuss business practices  -  I'd rather go clean the bathroom or get a tooth extracted.  Businesses make choices just like people do (because they are run by people).  Every factor that can affect a 'persons' decision can also affect a 'companies' decision.  I completely respect your position of trying to see the best in people (and business) because I do it to.  Anyhow, not a big deal but I wanted to post this in case others took my post the same way.   Just understand - I do not want my comments to be taken as 'XXXXX company is evil!'.  Not at all what I was trying to say.  🙂

 

Evil little imps...  I'm going to have to check with my boss.  Might explain a few things where I work!   lol

[BjorJlen]

3 minutes ago, KauaiJim said:

 

You sort of read a bit too much I think from what I was saying.  Maybe it was the way I wrote it, if so my apologies.  However, my statement was about BAD BUSINESS DECISIONS.  Or at least waht I consider bad business desisions.  Not evil.  Evil is everywhere there are people.  Even here.  So is good.  Funcom and NCSoft are two mmo companies who have made business decisions that were most definitely done deliberately.  Whether they had 'evil' intent and were intentionally trying to suffocate their own children or they simply made a numbers call was not the point I was making.  The point I was making was that CoX still had a strong heartbeat when it died an untimely death.  Pretty much the opposite of what the angry guy was ranting about CoH in the OP.  Funny to me.  I REALLY do not wish to discuss business practices  -  I'd rather go clean the bathroom or get a tooth extracted.  Businesses make choices just like people do (because they are run by people).  Every factor that can affect a 'persons' decision can also affect a 'companies' decision.  I completely respect your position of trying to see the best in people (and business) because I do it to.  Anyhow, not a big deal but I wanted to post this in case others took my post the same way.   Just understand - I do not want my comments to be taken as 'XXXXX company is evil!'.  Not at all what I was trying to say.  🙂

 

Evil little imps...  I'm going to have to check with my boss.  Might explain a few things where I work!   lol

   Oh I defiantly got what you were saying, and I totally agree with you. My "evil" comment was just me making a joke is all, so it's all good and your fine. 🙂👍🙂

 

[Haijinx]

On 4/9/2021 at 3:18 PM, Rishidian said:

 

 

Third: SWTOR didn't die after a nerf.  It hasn't died yet.

 

 

 

SWTOR doesn't really feel like a MMO to me.   It feels like a single player game that other people play in the same worldspace.

 

But yeah I don't ever see it dying until everyone has played through all the single player content or they release some single player version you can play offline or something.  It really is a pretty good single player RP game.   

[Oubliette_Red]

Some folks still have their panties in a bunch over ED. Get down off the cross, take the wood, build a bridge and get over it.

 

Regarding changes to games shortly after launch, there isn't a multi-player PC/console/mobile game that had enough game play data prior to launch to realistically cover how any mechanic/item/etc will be used by the masses once it gets released. A dozen testers, closed betas with hundreds or even thousands of players open betas with possibly tens of thousands of players in which only a percentage will report issues and gameplay mechanics, while the rest just want to see the new shiney is nowhere near the amount of eyes on a game once it's launched. A great deal of data is captured during the first days and weeks after launch, adjustments are sure to follow. This is how game development works.

 

[KauaiJim]

5 hours ago, Oubliette_Red said:

Regarding changes to games shortly after launch, there isn't a multi-player PC/console/mobile game that had enough game play data prior to launch to realistically cover how any mechanic/item/etc will be used by the masses once it gets released. A dozen testers, closed betas with hundreds or even thousands of players open betas with possibly tens of thousands of players in which only a percentage will report issues and gameplay mechanics, while the rest just want to see the new shiney is nowhere near the amount of eyes on a game once it's launched. A great deal of data is captured during the first days and weeks after launch, adjustments are sure to follow. This is how game development works.

 

Very true.  You could even take that further and say this is how business works.  Software as complex as mmorpg client/server literally can't be fully tested via the standard in-house, then alpha, then closed beta, then open beta.  It's just too much to literally test for every conceivable scenario.  So testing is kept reigned in a bit primarily focused on functionality and bug squashing.  If they had teams trying to dream up every way someone might be able to break something by doing some combination of things the game would never get released.  The sheer volume of possible issues that could arise would require a TON of testing.  Just the requirements and test cases alone would make me run for the hills.

 

As a business, with investors, they NEED to get these beasts up and running as quickly as possible, or perhaps even by certain 'deadlines'.  Having been in the software business myself for a good while, I know there is a LOT of pressure to get these things going.  So, as much as they may want to test it just a bit more, there comes a point where you have to pull the trigger.  And on something this large scale and complex, as you stated, there WILL be a TON of new data that they will be watching very closely.

 

That's why I said in my first post that mmo's might not be the thing for him because after launch nerfs are pretty 'standard'.  I sympathize with his frustration in the general sense that it sucks to like something and really be just getting into it and have it be changed radically.  However if he's really played online games/mmo's long enough to be spouting off about so many (bad) examples, then yeah, he should know better.  And if it was an obvious gamebreaker or exploit, then he REALLY should have known better.  Nerfs happen.  Either adjust or find an alternative in the game, or move on, perhaps even temporarily until you cool down and give it another try.  But going on a rant flaming a ton of games won't accomplish a thing, except to perhaps expose your lack of ability to back up your rant with you know, actual facts... lol.  Makes me chuckle every time (because I'm human too and will admit I've thrown a fit or two of my own back in the day when I was a younger whippersnapper - never went well for me either. hehe).  😄 

Edited April 12, 2021 by KauaiJim

[Gatling]

Played the game too long ago and on a PC far too crappy to know enough about the mechanics to know when things were changed or nerfed. I did eventually stop playing and came back sporadically, but not long enough to learn new systems and changes. I was too busy trying to find a game that was as fun as COH was ironically enough. Very few games really match up, even now. I've played quite a lot of MMO's and as Old school as this one is, it's still one of the best out there for almost everything you want to do in an MMO. Nerfs be damned, COH offered a lot over time to cover the problems they caused, right?

[Wavicle]

The Global Defense reductions and Enhancement Diminishing Returns SAVED CoH. Dude has no idea what he's talking about.

[Turric]

On 4/9/2021 at 7:15 AM, Heraclea said:

 

I did leave again for a while, for Age of Conan; still love the setting and look of the game world.  But that game too turned into a ghost town, without help of drastic nerfs. 

 

I played AoC for more than a year. It is a wonderfully looking game with great potential. In my opinion, what killed that game was that it seemed unfinished.  The costume system there was just bad. It needed to take a hint from SWTOR in that department. And the final end game? And the main quest line being essentially the same regardless of which class you play. There were just a lot of bad things about Conan countered by the fact that it was really really pretty to look at, and the combat system was fun. But if you want a good Necromancer class. AoC had probably the best one I have seen. 

 

And as for SWTOR, it is still going strong. I logged in there a few months ago to find they increased the max level again, but the space stations were thronged with people.

 

 

If the writer of that post wanted to use a game as an example, he should have brought up Dark Age of Camelot. While still going, the population suffered from changes to the game. Or what about Star Trek Online?

[BjorJlen]

   Whippersnapper... Hmmmm... What a good name for a new character @KauaiJim... 😁

 

   And on a side note, not to get off topic about the original post and nerfs, couldn't a case be made about companies releasing games and even PC programs that were not exactly what you might call "finished products"? If only to make more money with game expansions and updates? With some businesses I think their is more money to be made in such practices then just releasing things that don't need to be immediately "fixed", in their eyes at least. (Take Cancer research for example.)

   Just a thought...

 

   Oh and @Turric, what's this about Star Trek Online? That is another game that I have been wanting to check out for a long time (Long time Star Trek nerd here lol). Could you (or anyone) point out some links that I could look at before I get into the game please? Reviews, nerfs, game issues, how the game community is, and such. I am big on research before getting into anything for the most part. Thanks... 🙂

[Turric]

20 minutes ago, BjorJlen said:

  

   Oh and @Turric, what's this about Star Trek Online? That is another game that I have been wanting to check out for a long time (Long time Star Trek nerd here lol). Could you (or anyone) point out some links that I could look at before I get into the game please? Reviews, nerfs, game issues, how the game community is, and such. I am big on research before getting into anything for the most part. Thanks... 🙂

 

 

STO isn't bad at all. I do not have any links or anything, it has been several years since I played. But my impression of it was moderately positive. As a big Trek person, it should hit all your nostalgia points, from every version of Star Trek. The game is split between setting up your ship for space combat and then your personal character for planet exploration. The second half was a little lackluster, but improved right before I stopped playing a few years ago. The end game and dailies are a little complex and will require your research, because there are expansions upon expansions. Somewhat like SWTOR if you're familiar. Overall, I enjoyed playing through to max level and running all the missions and quest lines for both Federation and Klingon. The Romulan one was actually decent but I lost interest in the game so my Romulan never reached max level. The game was made (or handled) by Cryptic, which made COH, so there was a little familiarity there also. The community was very helpful, one of the better gaming communities that I've come across. But the amount of players is not SWTOR levels. I would actually guess it to be comparable to Homecoming. They do come out with regular updates, or at least did, the last time I checked, which was more than a year ago. I would recommend it to Trek fans but I would think that science fiction fans would get more mileage from Eve Online.

 

[BjorJlen]

   Thanks for the info @Turric. I will defiantly look into it...

[KauaiJim]

On 4/12/2021 at 6:15 AM, BjorJlen said:

Whippersnapper... Hmmmm... What a good name for a new character @KauaiJim... 😁

 

Just for grins I tried to roll a toon with this name on Everlasting just to see - yep, it's already taken!  lol  (by you perhaps? if so l'm curious what AT/powers)

 

I very much agree with @Turric on AoC and STO.  Both great games in their own way, much as he described.

[BjorJlen]

1 hour ago, KauaiJim said:

 

Just for grins I tried to roll a toon with this name on Everlasting just to see - yep, it's already taken!  lol  (by you perhaps? if so l'm curious what AT/powers)

 

I very much agree with @Turric on AoC and STO.  Both great games in their own way, much as he described.

 

   Sorry good sir, but no I did not create such a character with that name; I was hoping you would as it is your honor, not mine. 😁However... if I did character with that name, it would obviously be a Demon Mastermine as it is the only Archtype I know that uses a whip lol. On secondary's though, ya got me there as I have no idea what I would choose.

 

   Peace...