I had to defend the game's honor folks...

[JnEricsonx]

Given that there's been some nerfs to the newly released game Outriders, someone posted a whole list of games who they say got made crap by early on nerfs, and wouldn't you know it, we made the cut.  Would you think this guy's full of it?  As I had to state how the game lasted the better part of a DECADE.

 

 

1 hour ago

I have to say that anyone liking these nerfs are trolls. Every company that goes heavy handed with nerfs on a looter shooter dies quickly after. More so if they are a smaller indie like company. Take Wolcen for a recent example. Dead less than a year after release. Dead basically after their first major nerf patch. Anyone remember city of heroes? Died the same way. Even bigger games are not really immune from this action. Star Wars galaxy and star wars old republic are more examples. Huge nerfs like this after launch kill games like this. Better to slow boil the frog instead of making it jump out. The issue is that these games may be coop but the majority of the player base plays solo. Most of the big damage numbers are coming from groups and not solo players. The game needs to balanced around solo players being able to solo CT15 expeditions right now and get gold with all decently optimized builds. Anything less will kill this game.

[Techwright]

Not really sure what this writer means by nerfs killing COH.  Sure we had some that received a lot of grumbling, but I don't recall any being the game breakers that the writer implies.  Certainly not killing the game after "their first major nerf patch", which they imply with the words "Died the same way."   I could have wished for a clearer explanation.  As it is, it comes across as someone just shooting their mouth off with the "hasty generalization" argument error. 

[DoctorDitko]

Well, the Great Defense Nerf, followed by the Erectile Dysfunction Delivery (EDD) system and the Purple Triangles o'Doom, sure didn't help.

But, yeah, this game had legs, if they hadn't been cut off at the knees by suits, it might've survived. Especially give the Superhero Renaissance Hollywood has discovered.

 

tl;dr: Ignore Random Guy and laugh all the way to the bank (Mayhem mishes, LFG!).

[KauaiJim]

I understand this guy's frustration in general - almost every mmo I've played has 'discovered' shortly after launch that they need to nerf something to all heck.  I think it's usually the result of the marketing folks/management staring intently at the numbers of their newly released cash cow and making quick course corrections to appease investors.  I think what a lot of people find frustrating is that they are already 'invested' in it and then literally the game changes.  It makes people feel a bit like they fell for a bait and switch.  It is an unfortunate part of the nature of business.  It's really all about the money.

 

While I agree with him in the general sense that companies have a history of doing this, and many mmo's really have been radically changed for many players by nerfs - often being 'sold' to the players as some type of newly improved playing experience, yada yada.  If he is that upset by it then I would suggest to him that online games may not be his thing because what he's complaining about is pretty standard stuff and pervasive throughout the mmo industry in my experience.

 

However -  I disagree entirely with his use of CoH as an example because THAT isn't what killed it.  He obviously does not realize how popular CoH was right up until shutdown nor is he acknowledging the massive outcry from the community at the time and all of the efforts to save CoX.  His bringing up SWG is sort of an example in my mind but SWToR (1) isn't dead and (2) is still fun and enjoyable for many with the glaring exception(s) that they took the cheap route when they added new content over the last few years and they went full retard with their casino cash shop.  

 

Champions Online pulled one of the biggest 'just after launch nerf the living bleep out of everything' stunts I've personally experienced and that game is still going and still fun to those who play.  Granted, I have two lifetime accounts that I don't play because, well, CO just doesn't feel 'super hero' to me.  It feels more, 'wannabe super hero' or 'Westworld style theme park'.  So in my mind CO maybe could have been used as an example of 'right after launch over the top nerfs' (and I think Vanguard too if I recall correctly).  

 

Anyhow, I will say thank you sir for defending our beloved CoX 👍, unfortunately however he's just some poor guy having a bout of nerf rage.  Been there myself.

[JnEricsonx]

I still love SWTOR as well, even if they made companions godly after I spent a good year learning crafting skills to gear them out...grumble.  Haven't played it in years.  And as I keep telling people, the only nerf in this game that even mildly annoyed me was the legendary Energy Transfer animation back in the day.

[Ignatz the Insane]

Some players take nerfs way too personally.  It's an attitude I've never fully understood.  There have been cases where Devs have gone too far, but on the whole, nerfs to powersets have been fully justified in all the games I've played.  I not only understand the need for balance, I agree with the desire to achieve it.  Those who don't kind of baffle me.  It's not personal.  In the grand scheme of things it's also not important.  

Edited April 9, 2021 by Ignatz the Insane

[Lunchmoney]

3 hours ago, DoctorDitko said:

Purple Triangles o'Doom

Had to Google this and you made me go to a fandom page. I now hate you 😂

[KauaiJim]

2 minutes ago, JnEricsonx said:

I still love SWTOR as well, even if they made companions godly after I spent a good year learning crafting skills to gear them out...grumble.  Haven't played it in years.  And as I keep telling people, the only nerf in this game that even mildly annoyed me was the legendary Energy Transfer animation back in the day.

 

Yeah, kind of got weird when your companion(s) give you an inferiority complex, lol.

 

For me in this game it was regen.  Not because it didn't need a nerf or some type of adjustment.  But rather because why use a scalpel to fix something when you can 'nuke it from orbit - it's the only way to be sure'?  But that didn't 'kill the game' or anything like that.  And yeah, the ET nerf was another one of those too IMO.

 

But we all know this stuff happens.  I just wish the guy would get his facts straight on his support examples.  CoX is one of those mmo's that as someone earlier stated "always had legs" even when Jack Emmert was doing his John Smedley / Brad McQuaid immitation and right up through shutdown.

[KauaiJim]

20 minutes ago, Lunchmoney said:

Had to Google this and you made me go to a fandom page. I now hate you 😂

 

I Google'd 'purple triangle of doom' and found this picture:

 

[Mopery]

Someone figures out a clever way of becoming OverPowered in a game... soon everybody knows about it, makes the same build, and then acts like they personally discovered it through detailed and complicated calculations with near Herculean effort whenever the devs find it to be an outlier in need of balancing and fix it. Hundreds or thousands of players have a good cry, type their fingers to the bone begging for things to not change, and in the end ragequit. Seen it so many times that my violin strings popped playing sad music to soothe them all...

[KauaiJim]

52 minutes ago, Ignatz the Insane said:

Some players take nerfs way too personally.  It's an attitude I've never fully understood.  There have been cases where Devs have gone too far, but on the whole, nerfs to powersets have been fully justified in all the games I've played.  I not only understand the need for balance, I agree with the desire to achieve it.  Those who don't kind of baffle me.  It's not personal.  In the grand scheme of things it's also not important.  

 

Oh yeah I agree we players tend to do that.  I say "we" because I do this too, I have just learned over 21+ years of playing mmo's to shake it off, decide a course and move along.  I think there have actually been many cases where the Dev's went too far in many mmo's so it isn't much of a surprise to me when it happens.  What are you going to do?  We're all human, even the folks running these game companies.  If the nerfs ruined your build, change to another build or move on.  If the nerfs ruined your class, change to another class or move on.. etc.  

 

While I also agree completely about balance, I will say in my experience playing these games... well, it gets complicated.  Most of us know this.  Balance for one thing affects other things.  I'm really tired so I'm going to come up with a silly example:  Ice Cream.  If you are going to want to 'balance' ice cream correctly you are going to want to keep the containers similar packaged and priced and quality, but you want vanilla to still be vanilla, chocolate still chocolate and so on.  Otherwise, you might as well just blend em all up together and sell just one vanilachocolatestrwberry flavor.  You need to make sure your French vanilla isn't so much better quality or tasting or priced than regular vanilla or you won't sell any of those.  And further and further on down the balance rabbit hole it goes.

 

tl;dr  -  Balance is desirable but often complex to achieve without affecting the overall uniqueness ('flavor') or having an affect on a myriad of other things causing undesired consequences.  Simplifying this down a bit more I'll use a couple of examples that have been around since the dawn off mmo time:  Changes to PVE/PVP break PVP/PVE or changes to solo/teaming breaks teaming/solo.  These games are literally woven together in ways that make them a minefield for the devs to attempt re-balancing.  So yep, balancing is very desirable and needed, unfortunately it can get tricky so they often miss the mark a bit or even cause another group of players to be impacted.  

 

Sheesh, I need a tl;dr for my tl;dr !

 

[Peacemoon]

2 hours ago, Ignatz the Insane said:

Some players take nerfs way too personally.  It's an attitude I've never fully understood.  There have been cases where Devs have gone too far, but on the whole, nerfs to powersets have been fully justified in all the games I've played.  I not only understand the need for balance, I agree with the desire to achieve it.  Those who don't kind of baffle me.  It's not personal.  In the grand scheme of things it's also not important.  

I think some people try too hard to game the system, and then when the system readjusts they’re left with choices/characters that they only loved because of the power it brought. 
 

Moral of the story, if you constantly power-chase in a mmo you will forever be getting hurt. 
Also if you’re looking for respect, you’ll get more respect from using skill and tenacity to perform very well without being fotm.

[Heraclea]

A drastic sword and shield nerf is the main reason I'm not playing ESO any more. 

 

COH was different.  I too quit playing for about a year and went to WoW for a while in the aftermath of ED on top of GDN.  Eventually I found progression raiding and the drama it generated too toxic.  and realized that there was no path to building a character that easily triumphed over whatever the game could throw at it.  So I came back in time for inventions, which intrigued me a little; and what ultimately hooked me again was Cimerora.  After a while I had the Factory set up to avoid the broken inf markets on old live and was using set IOs and making builds. 

 

I did leave again for a while, for Age of Conan; still love the setting and look of the game world.  But that game too turned into a ghost town, without help of drastic nerfs. 

[Vulpoid]

I find a good rule of thumb in life is not to complain about a gift.
You have been given a gift.
Say thank you, kiss your aunt on the cheek and move on to the next thing under the tree.

[Ironblade]

12 hours ago, JnEricsonx said:

Given that there's been some nerfs to the newly released game Outriders, someone posted a whole list of games who they say got made crap by early on nerfs, and wouldn't you know it, we made the cut.  Would you think this guy's full of it?

Definitely.

I would conclude that each of these games had one particular 'nerf' that offended him personally.  As a result, one of two things is happening:

1) He's spouting BS to badmouth games that 'betrayed' him.

2) His memory of the games is distorted by the singular outrage that ruined it forever.

[Rishidian]

16 hours ago, JnEricsonx said:

Anyone remember city of heroes? Died the same way. Even bigger games are not really immune from this action. Star Wars galaxy and star wars old republic are more examples. Huge nerfs like this after launch kill games like this. Better to slow boil the frog instead of making it jump out. The issue is that these games may be coop but the majority of the player base plays solo. Most of the big damage numbers are coming from groups and not solo players. The game needs to balanced around solo players being able to solo CT15 expeditions right now and get gold with all decently optimized builds. Anything less will kill this game.

First of all - it's City of Heroes.  Capitalization matters

 

Second: He is misinformed.  CoH didn't die the same way - did not die because of a Nerf.  I wouldn't consider a game that was cut off at the knees after several years of success, a game that died after launch.

 

Third: SWTOR didn't die after a nerf.  It hasn't died yet.

--------------

Something to remember: 

Opinions are like ass holes:

--Everyone has one

--They all stink

--The only one that matters is your own

 

Here's the Nerfed Games Hot Line: 1-800-GET-WAAA

 

[Outrider_01]

I have stopped playing some games when they pull this shit like I4 and ED.  It's not the nerfing complaint, I don't pay a monthly sub to beta test function and game play than they completely overhaul the mechanics. I don't care if the game was out and I join after, but a complete revamp while I was paying since release and its been a few months, I leave. I left CoH for a year after I4, always liked the COH but I don't waste money on unfinished games.  Same with Vanguard, SWOTR, and a couple of others. Only came back to COH because it was fun.

[Troo]

@JnEricsonx Oh you ain't seen nothing yet.

[Twisted Toon]

1 hour ago, Outrider_01 said:

 I don't waste money on unfinished games.

I hate to point this out to you, but, every online game in the entirety of the universe, is an unfinished game.

Even some games that aren't Multiplayer, and can be played offline, are unfinished. (updates, you know)

There is always something being added (how many expansions were added to WoW?) or tweaked.

And contrary to some people's feelings, balance is a necessary thing for the extended life of a game. Especially an MMO.

 

So, yeah. you might want to wait a few more decades or centuries before looking into playing CoH some more. Seeing as it's still unfinished.

Oh, and that other game you might want to play is also unfinished.

And that one too

 

and that one

 

 

...and that one as well.

[MTeague]

I mean, there's shades off gray going on here, too. 

 

Diablo III, sure they add some minor stuff each season,  but the game is basically Done.  Nothing reallllly fundamental is likely to change now. 

Or Civilization IV: Beyond the Sword, from Steam?  It's essentially stagnant. 

Original Subnautica?  Not likely to change much (though Subnautica:Below Zero, is still early release....)

 

But like a brand new Bethesda game?  Yea, no matter how badly I wanted to play Fallout 4 back when it first came out in 2015?  I wait until May 2016 to buy it.  Because like eveyrthing Bethesda releases, it was going to have a ton of game-breaking bugs / borked quests requiring console command fixes, and have lots of small bugs that they would NEVER willingly address. Only the Unofficial Patches made by the modding communities make Bethesda games worth playing. 

 

So it that's where @Outrider_01 is coming from on "don't waste money on unfinished games", I can see that.  Sure, maybe it's more of a blanket statement, lacking in some nuance for exactly where he draws the line and says "This kind of stuff is okay, that kind of crap is just unfinished.".  But I can get disgust with some gaming studios who consider the end-user to be their Alpha testers.  At least for me, it boils down to: does it really feel like they're not even trying?

 

CoH of course, passed that test with flying colors.  NCSoft is still in the "Never Forgive" bucket, but that's for pulling the plug on it, not for their QC practices.

[Outrider_01]

1 hour ago, Twisted Toon said:

I hate to point this out to you, but, every online game in the entirety of the universe, is an unfinished game.

 

Naw, I mean the type that had no idea how they wanted the game at release. It's like a chef sending out a a burger, I pay for it, and the chef decides to take back the beef than substitute a vegan burger. 

 

If a game has to revamp its combat or crafting process in the first 3 months from release and I was paying a subscription, the game is a paid beta test. Happened a few times to me, including "suddenly" going to F2P like SWOTR.

[BjorJlen]

   Good job @JnEricsonx for defending this great game of ours. The person who wrote those comments about City of Heroes obviously didn't have any data to back up his opinion... because that's all it was... a opinion. If you play any MMO game, nerfs are just to be expected and ridden threw like any other storm that comes alon. But a nerf did NOT kill CoH. NCSoft did... period. So I would direct you all to the great Jack Nicholson as Joker would say in response to this persons opinion...

 

   Just replace town with person... 🙂

[MTeague]

I dunno. The title just doesn't work for me per se. 

It's not like games have "honor" that requires humans to "defend" it. 

 

It's a game we love, sure. 

we boggle in disbelief at the quoted opinion, sure. 

but I see "defending the honor" all too often wrapped up with "them's fightin' words" kind of outlooks. 

 

If someone is really raining scorn down on CoH, best thing is keep the Big Lebowski in mind. "Yea, well, that's just like, your opinion, man".

Edited April 9, 2021 by MTeague

[Techwright]

Now if the commenter had cited that other NCSoft property, Tabula Rasa, they might have just had a point.  TR lost a ton of players after the developers decided all archetypes and power sets were wrong and released an update that literally rewrote every character.  I'd been loving my guardian, and was up to level 40, but having to relearn everything from scratch at that level was the last straw, after several major bugs including whole zones that were unplayable, including one with massive movement problems that was ironically named "the Mires".  The game did manage to wobble on a bit, but it had lost too much of it's paying player base.  It's a shame really.  The game had a lot of potential with some very interesting gaming concepts.

[srmalloy]

On 4/9/2021 at 12:18 PM, Rishidian said:

Second: He is misinformed.  CoH didn't die the same way - did not die because of a Nerf.  I wouldn't consider a game that was cut off at the knees after several years of success, a game that died after launch.

You could make the argument that, with the retention rate that City of Heroes had, its very existence challenged NCsoft management's preconceptions about what an MMORPG should be, so they nerfed it all the way into the dirt so that it would no longer exist as a counterexample to their fixation that high-churn team-centric cash-shop-based MMOs were the best way to go.