Please revert the Rage change.

[Sniktch]

On 8/30/2019 at 1:04 AM, Captain Powerhouse said:

About my previous post: I didn’t mean to state that was a direction we were aiming for. It was an idea and wanted to gather some thoughts on it. At this point it has been discarded.

 

I also want to note that at least at this point, we are not going to be adding any more mutually exclusive powers like Practiced/Master brawler. That was an experiment that we were planning to roll back long ago but wasn’t done due to many real life events. At this point it may be a perpetual oddity as it may be considered cemented and protected by the cottage rule.

 

As for rage: nothing that gets proposed will ever make everyone happy, but here is another thought for consideration, one that is more likely to hit Justin at some point:

 

Rage will no longer crash if it isn’t stacked. Activating Rage while still under the effect of a previous activation would insure that the previous application crashes. To make it easier to use, there would be a marker, potentially a colored ring, that would indicate that the power is ready to be used without triggering the crash.

 

Anyone that feels the crash is worth the penalty, can set it to auto and make it recharge as fast as they feel like it. 

 

 

That is exactly the intent the original devs had - Rage is powerful, and stacking it should come with a cost.  I am OK with this implementation; it's not perfect, but nothing is. 

[LateNights]

6 hours ago, Sniktch said:

 

 

6 hours ago, Sniktch said:

 

 

That is exactly the intent the original devs had - Rage is powerful, and stacking it should come with a cost.  I am OK with this implementation; it's not perfect, but nothing is. 

Bear in mind, this was pre - "Brute".

 

IMO Brutes do indeed "rage", "however Tanks are "mighty" - so, one should come with a larger benefit & associated cost (Brute), and the other should be less capable offensively, but with a lesser downside (Tanker).

 

(As others have noted, Comic book characters that "we" would consider "Tanks", do often display the ability to "rage" - however in CoH it seems we've already made the distinction between the two by calling one a "brute", and the other a "tank"...)

 

So we'd have a solution for Brutes ("rage"), and another for Tanks ("might") - which  may just differentiate the two enough thematically that everyone is happy.

 

Bonus points if this could line up with the oft requested change in regards to "Tanks" v "Brutes" - possibly by raising the Tank aggro cap beyond what is currently possible (ie. beyond the capability of a brute...).

 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2019 by LateNights
I quoted Sniktch twice, but I don't know how to fix it...

[DR_Mechano]

Personally I prefer the crashless option but without the ability to stack. It's a simple solution. The option presented here with the whole 'if you double stack it, it crashes' seems to overtly complicated. I get the 'thematic' natures of it since the idea of it stacking effectively means that your pushing your limits so far that you can't maintain it. This still means that defense sets get more overtly screwed than Resistance sets since the -20% crash isn't a massive deal if you're already capped for smashing/lethal etc. So Resistance heavy sets like Rad armor can push to constantly double stack, especially since they've got the recovery to soak the end crash. Meanwhile mixed sets or pure defense sets still suffer the penalty.

 

So yeah, I say, keep it crashless but disallow the ability to stack like Hasten or AM or a number of other buffs that cannot be self-stacked.

[12thPower]

37 minutes ago, LateNights said:

So we'd have a solution for Brutes ("rage"), and another for Tanks ("might")

possibly by raising the Tank aggro cap beyond what is currently possible (ie. beyond the capability of a brute...).

This, please! Separate the two AT's.

[MunkiLord]

13 hours ago, Kimuji said:

And I don't like the idea of giving Super Strength to scrappers (or stalkers). SS is an iconic Tankers and Brutes powerset, it's the epitome of the big guy's powers. Its proliferation would only weaken the flavor and difference between ATs.
 

This is a terrible opinion to have. If it was ported and you don't want to play it on Scrappers and Stalkers, then don't. Very simple. If other people enjoying and playing it would bother you, that's a 100% you problem.

[Vindicator]

[deleted]

Edited September 8, 2020 by Vindicator

[Haijinx]

the unique flavor / non-proliferation / "dont feels right" Longbow Chopper has flown. 

 

Fix Rage, then Proliferate.  

[DR_Mechano]

Fix Rage then also give Scrappers War Mace and Battle Axe...not sure why those two aren't available to scrappers when Broadsword is..

[ironjoe]

On 8/30/2019 at 12:04 AM, Captain Powerhouse said:

About my previous post: I didn’t mean to state that was a direction we were aiming for. It was an idea and wanted to gather some thoughts on it. At this point it has been discarded.

 

I also want to note that at least at this point, we are not going to be adding any more mutually exclusive powers like Practiced/Master brawler. That was an experiment that we were planning to roll back long ago but wasn’t done due to many real life events. At this point it may be a perpetual oddity as it may be considered cemented and protected by the cottage rule.

 

As for rage: nothing that gets proposed will ever make everyone happy, but here is another thought for consideration, one that is more likely to hit Justin at some point:

 

Rage will no longer crash if it isn’t stacked. Activating Rage while still under the effect of a previous activation would insure that the previous application crashes. To make it easier to use, there would be a marker, potentially a colored ring, that would indicate that the power is ready to be used without triggering the crash.

 

Anyone that feels the crash is worth the penalty, can set it to auto and make it recharge as fast as they feel like it. 

This is an implementation I would find as fun for the power. As far as the marker I would say have the ring on when the power is still active as a warning of the crash that will come as opposed to the other way around. Showing that pushing yourself even further comes with more penalty's when double or triple stacking rage.

[Myrmidon]

1 hour ago, ironjoe said:

This is an implementation I would find as fun for the power. As far as the marker I would say have the ring on when the power is still active as a warning of the crash that will come as opposed to the other way around. Showing that pushing yourself even further comes with more penalty's when double or triple stacking rage.

This.

[Cementi]

Rage is still pretty good though my endgame experience is lacking so maybe it is really that brutal.

As far as people talking about how amazing it is as an always on build up. Maybe you should take a look at SS's base damage numbers. Other than Knockout Blow they are lower than most other sets to compensate for the always on nature.

 

It's hard to say just how effective the set is as it's popularity is also skewed by how Iconic it is.

[Kimuji]

15 hours ago, MunkiLord said:

This is a terrible opinion to have. If it was ported and you don't want to play it on Scrappers and Stalkers, then don't. Very simple. If other people enjoying and playing it would bother you, that's a 100% you problem.

Then let's give melee sets as a possible choice to Blasters and controls to Brutes, and if you don't want to play it on Blasters and Brutes then don't. Very simple. If other people enjoying and playing it would bother you, that's a 100% you problem.

Sounds absurd? It is. AT uniqueness and flavor isn't a stupid concept, that's what separate the shitty Champions Online system from CoH. This is destroying CoH's identity and gameplay. Can't you imagine just one second that several sets were exclusive to certain ATs for a good reason? No? Do you think that the devs just did it to frustrate everyone? You are destroying a formula that some of us have been enjoying for years. And you too have been enjoying it since you're still here playing the game.

There's something all of you "if you don't like it don't play it" are missing: YOU are the ones asking for the game to be bent until it fits YOUR liking. You are the ones asking for the EXISTING rules to be altered. I am not the one asking for them to be changed so don't project your own demands on others and apply your own lessons to yourselves: if you don't like it don't play it. Hell this whole thread could have been ended in the second post if a smartass had come with a "if you don't like it don't play it" argument.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Kimuji

[kelly Rocket]

1 hour ago, Kimuji said:

Then let's give melee sets as a possible choice to Blasters and controls to Brutes, and if you don't want to play it on Blasters and Brutes then don't. Very simple. If other people enjoying and playing it would bother you, that's a 100% you problem.

Sounds absurd? It is. AT uniqueness and flavor isn't a stupid concept, that's what separate the shitty Champions Online system from CoH. This is destroying CoH's identity and gameplay. Can't you imagine just one second that several sets were exclusive to certain ATs for a good reason? No? Do you think that the devs just did it to frustrate everyone? You are destroying a formula that some of us have been enjoying for years. And you too have been enjoying it since you're still here playing the game.

There's something all of you "if you don't like it don't play it" are missing: YOU are the ones asking for the game to be bent until it fits YOUR liking. You are the ones asking for the EXISTING rules to be altered. I am not the one asking for them to be changed so don't project your own demands on others and apply your own lessons to yourselves: if you don't like it don't play it. Hell this whole thread could have been ended in the second post if a smartass had come with a "if you don't like it don't play it" argument.

Apples to oranges comparison.

 

And CO's problem wasn't anything to do with "Archetypes", it was that all the powersets were the same with different colors.

[Kimuji]

When you're throwing an accusation of this sort you have to prove why that comparison doesn't make sense.

Again, who actually thinks that the devs didn't give tankers and scrappers the exact same set pools to chose from just for the sake of limiting the player's fun? Is it impossible to imagine that there were gameplay and theme reasons behind it?

[Haijinx]

I don't think the problem with champions was power design.

 

I think the problem was one a lot of newer MMOs have.  No one really teams up.

 

That's why i like COH. People still make teams.  

[Haijinx]

25 minutes ago, Kimuji said:

When you're throwing an accusation of this sort you have to prove why that comparison doesn't make sense.

Again, who actually thinks that the devs didn't give tankers and scrappers the exact same set pools to chose from just for the sake of limiting the player's fun? Is it impossible to imagine that there were gameplay and theme reasons behind it?

I think they wanted the ATs to feel different. 

 

In the original game manual they described tankers as have slow but devastating attacks.  While scrappers had quick attacks.

 

The proliferation came a lot later.  

 

But at this point its like closing the barn door after the horses have already escaped, left the state, and moved in with the 3 little pigs. 

 

 

[Kimuji]

57 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

But at this point its like closing the barn door after the horses have already escaped, left the state, and moved in with the 3 little pigs.

I don't think it's totally useless. Indeed a lot of proliferation has already happened, but I don't believe that it means that we should completely abandon the concept. Super Strength is the most iconic of all Tankers secondaries. There's an entire thread on this section of the forum about Tankers losing their specificity and what we could do to make them more unique again (the "Tanker Brute Connundrum" thread). Giving the set that's got the strongest ties to their identity to other ATs would achieve the exact opposite.

And the very existance of the Rage crash is tied to that identity and gameplay specificity. Because of course such a crash would make no sense at all on an AT completely focused on damage like Scrappers. And that's why you only find that sort of mechanic on a Tanker/Brute set, because they're the only ones where it makes sense. So, the whole "let's remove the crash and proliferate" is basically sacrifying a Tanker/Brute set's identity in order to make it work for Scrappers. Giving SS to Scrappers and Stalkers would hurt Brutes quite a bit, and Tankers a whole f*ing lot. And they don't need that, they haven't much left that is unique to them, let's not take that away with the rest.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Kimuji

[Rylas]

4 hours ago, Kimuji said:

Then let's give melee sets as a possible choice to Blasters and controls to Brutes, and if you don't want to play it on Blasters and Brutes then don't. Very simple. If other people enjoying and playing it would bother you, that's a 100% you problem.

Sounds absurd?

Yes, that's absurd. But not for the reasoning you're strawmanning.

It's absurd because "melee" sets and Blaster "manipulation" sets have completely different intended functions. And more obviously, "melee" sets and "control" sets. Which is a completely different concept from proliferating a melee power set to other melee ATs. And the only reason it wasn't done for SS to Scrappers in the past would be because of balance issues. Not to avoid the "destruction of the game" as you're speculating.

 

Now, if you want to argue that SS numbers might need to be adjusted when ported over to Scrappers, I think that's a discussion worth having. But your argument as it stands is a terrible one.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Rylas

[Haijinx]

Really think the main issue stopping SS on scrappers is double stacked rage.  

[MunkiLord]

5 hours ago, Kimuji said:

Then let's give melee sets as a possible choice to Blasters and controls to Brutes, and if you don't want to play it on Blasters and Brutes then don't. Very simple. If other people enjoying and playing it would bother you, that's a 100% you problem.

Sounds absurd? It is. AT uniqueness and flavor isn't a stupid concept, that's what separate the shitty Champions Online system from CoH. This is destroying CoH's identity and gameplay. Can't you imagine just one second that several sets were exclusive to certain ATs for a good reason? No? Do you think that the devs just did it to frustrate everyone? You are destroying a formula that some of us have been enjoying for years. And you too have been enjoying it since you're still here playing the game.

There's something all of you "if you don't like it don't play it" are missing: YOU are the ones asking for the game to be bent until it fits YOUR liking. You are the ones asking for the EXISTING rules to be altered. I am not the one asking for them to be changed so don't project your own demands on others and apply your own lessons to yourselves: if you don't like it don't play it. Hell this whole thread could have been ended in the second post if a smartass had come with a "if you don't like it don't play it" argument.

Again, if other people using SS on a Scrapper would ruin your fun time simply for concept reasons, that is a terrible opinion to have. If your enjoyment is partially or wholly dependent on keeping others from enjoying something, that's a 100% you problem. 

 

And if there is a set I don't like, I don't play it. It's really quite simple and not nearly as dramatic as you're making it out to be.

 

Regardless of what sets do or don't get shared between the melee AT's, the Tanks unique identity as being the most easily replaced AT isn't going to change one bit. That's a problem that has nothing to do with hoarding powersets. And I don't care why the original developers made such a decision 15-20 years ago. The game has changed a lot since then and they are no longer in charge.

Edited September 1, 2019 by MunkiLord

[Vindicator]

[deleted]

Edited September 8, 2020 by Vindicator

[Hyperstrike]

20 hours ago, MunkiLord said:

This is a terrible opinion to have. If it was ported and you don't want to play it on Scrappers and Stalkers, then don't. Very simple. If other people enjoying and playing it would bother you, that's a 100% you problem.

It isn't that nobody would want to play it on a Scrapper.
The problem lies in the fact that the entire set would need to be rejiggered to the point where it would, effectively, be a completely different set (see Street Justice).
 

[MunkiLord]

3 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

It isn't that nobody would want to play it on a Scrapper.
The problem lies in the fact that the entire set would need to be rejiggered to the point where it would, effectively, be a completely different set (see Street Justice).
 

I wasn't saying that nobody would want to play it on Scrappers, just that one particular person. And changing the set and how doable and time intensive that may be is a perfectly reasonable explanation on why it may not happen, or not happen for a while. But I completely reject and dismiss people against it for concept reasons as them not wanting to play a set isn't a meaningful reason to keep others from playing it.

 

Though as far as changes go, my preference would be to make the Rage bonus a smaller number for Scrappers and see how that plays out.

[Noyjitat]

21 hours ago, DR_Mechano said:

Fix Rage then also give Scrappers War Mace and Battle Axe...not sure why those two aren't available to scrappers when Broadsword is..

scrappers do have warmace and have for quite sometime. Stalkers don't though..... 

 

Lot of people here talking about how op rage would be without a penalty but super strength damage is also not that great without it.  You're better off with fire, warmace or battle axe. That said I don't think we should be radically changing powers or sets especially things that remained unchanged for 23 issues..... If anything you should vote on buffing sets people feel are still weak as hell to this day. Im not a fan of this change to to hit as this moment either.

[Haijinx]

3 hours ago, Vindicator said:

If there's a way to limit that then we'll be all set for proliferation 🙂

Think that's more why they never proliferated it.

 

"What about SS?"

 

"Ugh wed have to look at Rage" 

 

"Yeah.  Damn.  Worry about that another day.  Lets do War Mace.  Its strong and pretty."

 

I remember people drooling when proliferation first started about how awesome Rage was going to be for Scraps, because they assumed Rage would get Scrapper damage mod scaling also.  

 

So basically +100 damage per stack, not +80.