Fixing Melee Regeneration set

[Haijinx]

On 4/27/2021 at 7:58 PM, arcane said:

Too true, but I never take a self rez on a melee character because they don’t tend to die.

Rise of the Phoenix is the best Melee nuke available. 

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, WindDemon21 said:

I'm glad someone actually seems to understand the base nature of what my suggestion is for, but I far from feel that it would make it anywhere near overpowered. The main benefit would be that when you use it it would actually let your fast healing/integrations regen mean something rather than how it's mostly cast aside in most gameplay compared to the other main abilities in regen. In the majority of cases, it's healing would be "increased" simply by the amount that you regenerate from fh/integration while the absorb is up. With the same values as current reconstruction but as absorb, if enemies are tearing through your 50% heal, they'll still tear through the 50% absorb, and your health will still be lower, but plus small amount you would regenerate in that meantime, and would actually mean something during the time that say IH is up, outside of basically having no purpose as a heal during that time. As to thinking it's "not needed" people can say that all day, but i've talked with and seen enough people/posts who simply do not agree, so the main issue would be if the devs think it would be overpowering, as again there is clearly no thematic loss if you look at sentinels (and that absorb is basically another form of heal anyway).

Well I understood what your suggestion was for, I even agree it wouldn't be overpowered. I just feel every expressed change is almost always increasing and pushing higher the power curve.  There have been plenty of suggestions to "modernize" power sets, "fixing" tier 9s, covering over sets' weaknesses and buffing Regen's heal to an absorb is no different in my eyes.

 

Some might say that's just a slippery slope fallacy but it's not... It's more like a slippery slope observation. But really, any positive change could possibly fall under such a trend, even the ones I suggest.

[Koopak]

1 hour ago, WindDemon21 said:

Or it's something suggested by a VERY experienced player who also plays every other armor set and sees regents faults and where it can be improved to be more fun. Fun being the operative word, you can have a different view fine, but don't even begin to be condescending to things you don't understand. Your snarkiness does not prove any other point besides you simply being egregiously pompous and thinking people are stupid or inexperienced because they don't share the same view as you. Get off you moderately stubby horse it's embarrassing.

While ill agree @America's Angel is being unnecessarily condescending, id suggest not responding in kind. Id point out you are also leaving out a core component to your argument

" where it can be improved to be more fun." To YOU. This makes this a subjective opinion rather than the objective thesis you began with of "Regen us underperforming"

To the objective thesis i assert that while regen could use a small tune up like suggested, your measures are far to drastic and seriously risk tipping the set the other side of the power curve. Ill note Regen players are more cautious about this than others too probably because we have felt the nerf bat before, and extensively.

To the subjective opinion, i flat out disagree, the only armor sets i find comparably fun to play is Bio Armor and Dark Armor, and again for the same reasons as regen, reactive and proactive responses to threats and incoming damage. Your proposed changes either don't effect this, or move reactive, not to proactive, but to a toggle. I say a toggle because your proposed Recon change means you would want to use it very similarly to perma Dull Pain, maintaining uptime. Yes if you kept the absorb short lived you'd solve that issue, but then you are nerfing recon because recon as it is is a permanent blob of health, not a temporary pool of hitpoints that will leave you just as vulnerable as you were before it was used in a few seconds.

As is reconstruction can be used after breaking line of sight to let it recharge a bit, and to compensate for -regen debuffs. Your suggestion removes that option, and insists on standind toe to toe with the enemy so your absorb does not go to waste, which forces you to be vulnerable after the fact.

I'll admit, i use Shadow Meld as a sort of preemptive protection method, and its dicey since defense always has a 5% chance to get hit anyways, id prefer a mini MoG, something that gave absorb or resistances in its place for just a moment, just enough to mitigate a heavy hit so I'm not 1 shot, but that's it and i don't NEED that, it'd just be nice to have and give me another active tool since Shadow Meld is in that "max up time" category as well.

[WindDemon21]

26 minutes ago, Koopak said:

" where it can be improved to be more fun." To YOU. This makes this a subjective opinion rather than the objective thesis you began with of "Regen us underperforming"

I have stated both, that's the crux. As it is not literally straight math, how it performs, or any other set or power in this game for that matter, is entirely subjective as to what "fun" is. Every single person responding in this thread all fall in that same category. The point being that while some may think it's fine, others do not, and it's far from the first post regarding it as an issue, so my suggestions, (keeping in mind the main two, the others were things to think upon) are how I see these issues most easily being fixed without overpowering the set in order to make the set more fun.

 

When part of the argument is "it's an ok set because you can run away," that does not really seem like a good compromise at all especially in today's standards. Again, having to run as the option because your other stuff isn't recharged yet and you have to run or die, is not fun. Also comparitively, other sets that already have better defense and resistance, also have that initial protection, and the protection also continues throughout the entire fight, where as regen, only really has that reactive, but then once those are used up, you're pretty much SOL until something else recharges. This change just extends that usefulness of reconstruction a little further through your alternate regen to take place during it's uptime. If you, me, and others don't see it as overpowering, then there really isn't much point to arguing against it (besides theme which again we seem to be in agreement including the devs that absorb is not out of the theme of regen). If you or anyone wants to go on the front that it WOULD make regen too OP, then that is where that point of discussion should start, and would be good to have the devs chime in on it too. Otherwise the regen lovers, certainly shoudln't be opposed to such a benefit unless they cry OP. (also keep in mind these are all in regards to pve, pvp is able to have it's on rules regarding powers, and could still remain a heal in pvp)

Edited April 29, 2021 by WindDemon21

[BrandX]

8 hours ago, Troo said:

 

@BrandX toxic resist does exist for Regeneration. (some in Reconstruction & Resilience)

 

I know this (I main Regen Scrapper).  I'd like more in it.  Regeneration to me, should be even more resistant to Toxic Damage 😛

[Koopak]

2 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

I have stated both, that's the crux. As it is not literally straight math, how it performs, or any other set or power in this game for that matter, is entirely subjective as to what "fun" is. Every single person responding in this thread all fall in that same category. The point being that while some may think it's fine, others do not, and it's far from the first post regarding it as an issue, so my suggestions, (keeping in mind the main two, the others were things to think upon) are how I see these issues most easily being fixed without overpowering the set in order to make the set more fun.

 

When part of the argument is "it's an ok set because you can run away," that does not really seem like a good compromise at all especially in today's standards. Again, having to run as the option because your other stuff isn't recharged yet and you have to run or die, is not fun. Also comparitively, other sets that already have better defense and resistance, also have that initial protection, and the protection also continues throughout the entire fight, where as regen, only really has that reactive, but then once those are used up, you're pretty much SOL until something else recharges. This change just extends that usefulness of reconstruction a little further through your alternate regen to take place during it's uptime. If you, me, and others don't see it as overpowering, then there really isn't much point to arguing against it (besides theme which again we seem to be in agreement including the devs that absorb is not out of the theme of regen). If you or anyone wants to go on the front that it WOULD make regen too OP, then that is where that point of discussion should start, and would be good to have the devs chime in on it too. Otherwise the regen lovers, certainly shoudln't be opposed to such a benefit unless they cry OP. (also keep in mind these are all in regards to pve, pvp is able to have it's on rules regarding powers, and could still remain a heal in pvp)

Maybe someone beat me to it but i wanted to reply to this.

Firstly every set with a self heal or good regen can make use of the "run away" tactic. And i dunno why that's somehow less fun then standing still and clicking attacks while toggles spin, to each their own I guess. I outlined this as a niche function that is lost with your suggested absorb changes. My point is changing Recon to absorb does one of two things.

Option 1. Its op because the Absorb means your effective Max HP is even higher, and your regen is able to be in play more often because yer able to rarely be at full health, meaning your total mitigate damage is significant improved.

Option 2. Its a colossal nerf because the absorb doesn't last as long as a true heal, meaning you can use it after taking a big hit, have it fade, unused, before then, then have another big hit hit you become you've full regenerated. This impact this "run away" scenario, where you can fall back and force your health back up, resetting the fight.

In BOTH of these you give up a tool that helps mitigate -regen stacking, and while i agree giving 95% resist to that debuff is a good call, there are -regen attacks in the game that would absolutely blow through that, if im not horribly mistaken. So even then you need a tool for that situtation, Recon is that tool. A time limited absorb CANNOT replace that without being in Option 1.

[WindDemon21]

10 minutes ago, Koopak said:

Maybe someone beat me to it but i wanted to reply to this.

Firstly every set with a self heal or good regen can make use of the "run away" tactic. And i dunno why that's somehow less fun then standing still and clicking attacks while toggles spin, to each their own I guess. I outlined this as a niche function that is lost with your suggested absorb changes. My point is changing Recon to absorb does one of two things.

Option 1. Its op because the Absorb means your effective Max HP is even higher, and your regen is able to be in play more often because yer able to rarely be at full health, meaning your total mitigate damage is significant improved.

Option 2. Its a colossal nerf because the absorb doesn't last as long as a true heal, meaning you can use it after taking a big hit, have it fade, unused, before then, then have another big hit hit you become you've full regenerated. This impact this "run away" scenario, where you can fall back and force your health back up, resetting the fight.

In BOTH of these you give up a tool that helps mitigate -regen stacking, and while i agree giving 95% resist to that debuff is a good call, there are -regen attacks in the game that would absolutely blow through that, if im not horribly mistaken. So even then you need a tool for that situtation, Recon is that tool. A time limited absorb CANNOT replace that without being in Option 1.

The big key there you're missing, is the absorb duration. First, you can certainly pop absorb, and run away just the same. Secondly, for option two, lets say the absorb lasts for 30 seconds (but flagged non stackable of course), then even considering the heal on it's own being up every 30 seconds with 3 recharge SOs, then it would be exactly equal in terms of it's healing ability as opposed to the absorb, When you factor hasten and more recharge bonuses to get it down lower than that 30 seconds, then it starts to benefit more no matter what situation prior to what it was before, because it's still hp for hp, and with the -regen resistance, it would actually be able to regenerate while that absorb is on. Even if that regen is less because SOME -regen breaks through, you'll still have something (which should still be a good bit with that -reg res) to heal more than you would versus given hitting your hp to full.

 

If the absorb only lasted like 10 seconds, sure I would 100% agree on your point being valid, but I couldn't see any way that it wouldn't be lasting 30 seconds, or possibly 20 at the least.

[arcane]

14 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

Lol I never said I was having *trouble* with it, just that I said comparatively it's been sub-par for a while given how it also impacts your dps and has no actual resistances to really any bad debuffs as well.

If you are perceiving it as subpar where many experienced regen players are not, is it not possible that your perception is derived from having trouble with it? If your experience is not nigh universal, is that not an indicator that your experience could be subjective?

[Koopak]

10 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

The big key there you're missing, is the absorb duration. First, you can certainly pop absorb, and run away just the same. Secondly, for option two, lets say the absorb lasts for 30 seconds (but flagged non stackable of course), then even considering the heal on it's own being up every 30 seconds with 3 recharge SOs, then it would be exactly equal in terms of it's healing ability as opposed to the absorb, When you factor hasten and more recharge bonuses to get it down lower than that 30 seconds, then it starts to benefit more no matter what situation prior to what it was before, because it's still hp for hp, and with the -regen resistance, it would actually be able to regenerate while that absorb is on. Even if that regen is less because SOME -regen breaks through, you'll still have something (which should still be a good bit with that -reg res) to heal more than you would versus given hitting your hp to full.

 

If the absorb only lasted like 10 seconds, sure I would 100% agree on your point being valid, but I couldn't see any way that it wouldn't be lasting 30 seconds, or possibly 20 at the least.

Not to be rude but you seem to have blown right past my point in outlining the two options, the two possibilities with your proposed change. Let me try to put numbers down on this to better illustrate.

When talking about regen its helpful to simplify the discussion by talking primarily about Effective HP and Effective HP/s, this is true with all sets, as even defense can be boiled down to these values but we will ignore defense for now because its not clean in that regard, and its not a stat most regen builds are likely to have a huge amount of outside of things like Shadow Meld.

Effective HP is the amount of raw, unmitigated damage you can take before dying. Since we have omitted defense, this is a simple equation if we assume the attack is say, smashing, a common damage type. We will also assume a scrapper in this scenario has 50% smashing resistance, this is an extremely achievable goal as an average resistance value, and can even be exceeded, especially in S/L. We will also assume said scrapper has Dull Pain active, and, due to that and other +hp bonuses from his build is at the scrapper HP cap of ~2,409. (avoid decimal places, as fun as it is to survive on 1/2 a hit point)

Thus our hypothetical character has an Effective Hp of ~3,613 (2,409 * (1+0.50(res)))

This is our baseline for Regen, you can look at average HP values of other sets and find they aren't that far behind and when you factor in defense, they actually all land in the same ballpark. That's a good thing because as i said Effective HP is the best available way to distill all values into a single 'durability score'. Now adding an absorb that can be added before damage is taken changes up this equation because that is additional hp added. Lets take your suggestion of changing Recon to absorb outright, no number tweaking, just how it is today but absorb instead of heal, and lets assume its unslotted for now.

Reconstruction heals for 334.7 (lets call is 335 for sake of simplicity) if changed to absorb this gets added into our equation.

(2,409 + absorb) * (1 + resistance)
(2,409 + 335) * (1 + 0.50)
~4,116 Effective Hp

That is a substantial Effective HP increase, though, not in and of itself over powered as long as its not a constant thing right? The issue is what comes next. Using my build as a reference, I have 116% Global Recharge while Hasten is up. Reconstruction is still unslotted in this example. With this, which is a MODEST amount of recharge, to the point of probably getting me ridicule from other Regen mains, Recon is on a cooldown of 27.75 seconds.

Using your proposed duration, this means that this Effective HP cap, is permanant, 30 seconds is well under the recharge rate of most builds, even relatively cheap ones, you only need 30% recharge from sets, and hasten to achieve this. 20 seconds, the duration you proposed as a "maybe" is still VERY achievable, because again, my proposed build here has ZERO recharge slotting in Reconstruction itself. In fact with 2 lvl 50+5 recharge IOs alone, you can reach 30.63 seconds.

Getting Reconstruction down as low as 15 seconds to recharge is an obtainable goal, and 20-30 seconds should be considered normal in end game builds with 30 seconds being the default of properly slotted builds for below 50 (even if it takes 3 SOs). None of this is factoring in the fact that you can nearly double the 335 listed above, pushing the effective hp up another 400ish hp.

So putting that all together, your proposed change leads to an Effective Hp of...
hp          absorb       heal slotting    resistance
(2,509 + (335 * (1 + 0.80))) * ( 1 + 0.50)
(2,509 + 603) * 1.50
3,112 * 1.50

4,668 Effective Hp

That's 4.6k max hp, with an uptime of 100% That is HUGE for a scrapper.

Now you could argue the solution is to just reduce uptime, either make the recharge longer, or make the absorb shorter lived. The problem is the gap this leaves.

Lets say you limit it to 10 seconds, average strong builds will have about a 20 second recharge, so thats a 50% up time, making it significantly more reasonable. Alright but now you bring back what Reconstruction already did. If, say, you take a big boy hit for 1k damage after mitigation, yer down to 1,509. With both your changes and how it is now, and using the 603 of a slotted recon, we can jump back to 2,112 hp. However, one of these will work in concert with your regen to bring you back to the hp cap in just a few seconds, the other will exceed it, then fall off.

Using my build as an example im at roughly 60 hp/s regen without using Instant Healing. So ill be back to the HP cap in about 6.6 seconds. However with your changes that'll actually take 16.6 seconds, and after the first 6.6 you'd actually be ahead due to the absorb. Great!... for the next 3.4 seconds. After that you will find yourself at 2,109 total hp. This is below where unchanged reconstruction would leave you after 10 seconds, and leaves you vulnerable. Keep in mind, 10 seconds have passed, another big hit is likely right around the corner, and you aren't even fully recovered from the first.

On the flip side if you have the absorb last 20-30 seconds, you'll be able to keep this absorb up permanently. This not only introduces the above Effective Hp issue, but also introduces a sustain problem.

See we can break Reconstruction's value into regen. Again using the 603 before, at a 20 second recharge, a reasonable value, that's functionally 30 hp/s which is... ALOT. Keep in mind that is 1/2 the regen value of my build standing still with toggles and Dull Pain. This is constrained, just like that regen, by the fact that there is an hp cap that I cant exceed, no matter how hard I try. So while a huge amount of regen (seriously how can you argue you'd consider skipping that?) its entirely depending on reaction and risk taking to take advantage of optimally. This is why its allowed to be this strong.

Now lets look at your changes. The effective regen is the same, the absorb is the same as the hp healed, and the recharge time is the same, with an uptime of 20 seconds, permaing it is more than reasonable and a likely build goal. So one can argue that this regen value is in play at all times and only loses effectiveness when yer not taking enough damage to break the barrier, which in that case, you don't care because yer not at risk. Additionally your reaction window to use it reactively is much bigger, and you can simply do so any time the green bar moves at all.

In then end your change, either A. Leaves you with a weakened state when the absorb is down if you try to use it reactively. or B. litteraly increases my pre Instant Healing effective regen by 50%, and with Instant healing on its STILL an 18.75% increase.

THIS is my point dude, sorry for the long ass rant to get here, but no matter how you slice it, your changes to Recon are either a serious nerf, or a HUGE buff, well into the OP territory. No ammount of jiggling with the absorb values, recharge time, or duration, will change this either. Because at the end of the day, the problem is that either you are giving up a tool to recover a permanent resource (health) or you are gaining a tool that gives you significantly more of that resource (absorb stacked on health and healing) You cant hit the trade off you seem to want with this change where you'd get the absorb stacking benefit SOMETIMES, but keep the health recovery tool.





A better way to accomplish what I think you want? And What I think actually has some merit to consider, even if its not needed, is to ADD a TINY absorb to Recon, or better, as a separate power. (not a real option obviously unless its made a sub power of integration like many travel powers today). Something that doesn't take away an existing tool, isn't permenant, and gives, say, 100-200 absorb, unenhancable. That would give you a preemptive mitigation tool, call it Preemptive Recovery, or something like that. Another option would be something like a regenerative counter, where you brace and if hit in the next second or two by X amount of damage, gain a regen spike to quickly recover from it.

However NONE of those are needed. Shadow Meld effectively does what they'd do already, and while its an epic, which sucks, and id prefer something more consistent than the dice of defense and actually in the regen powerset, its an example of what you seem to be looking for. A preemptive solution to incoming damage.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk.

(TL;DR: Big nerd man explains why numbers go brrr and regen is actually mostly fine and just needs a little pick me up to cover one or two of its debuff weaknesses at most.)
 

Edited April 29, 2021 by Koopak

[Troo]

22 minutes ago, Koopak said:

Thanks for coming to my TED talk.

 

You get a like for this alone.

[WindDemon21]

27 minutes ago, Koopak said:

Not to be rude but you seem to have blown right past my point in outlining the two options, the two possibilities with your proposed change. Let me try to put numbers down on this to better illustrate.

When talking about regen its helpful to simplify the discussion by talking primarily about Effective HP and Effective HP/s, this is true with all sets, as even defense can be boiled down to these values but we will ignore defense for now because its not clean in that regard, and its not a stat most regen builds are likely to have a huge amount of outside of things like Shadow Meld.

Effective HP is the amount of raw, unmitigated damage you can take before dying. Since we have omitted defense, this is a simple equation if we assume the attack is say, smashing, a common damage type. We will also assume a scrapper in this scenario has 50% smashing resistance, this is an extremely achievable goal as an average resistance value, and can even be exceeded, especially in S/L. We will also assume said scrapper has Dull Pain active, and, due to that and other +hp bonuses from his build is at the scrapper HP cap of ~2,409. (avoid decimal places, as fun as it is to survive on 1/2 a hit point)

Thus our hypothetical character has an Effective Hp of ~3,613 (2,409 * (1+0.50(res)))

This is our baseline for Regen, you can look at average HP values of other sets and find they aren't that far behind and when you factor in defense, and actually all land in the same ballpark. That's a good thing because as i said Effective HP is the best available way to distill all values into a single 'durability score'. Now adding an absorb that can be added before damage is taken changes up this equation because that is additional hp added. Lets take your suggestion of changing Recon to absorb outright, no number tweaking, just how it is today but absorb instead of heal, and lets assume its unslotted for now.

Reconstruction heals for 334.7 (lets call is 335 for sake of simplicity) if changed to absorb this gets added into our equation.

(2,409 + absorb) * (1 + resistance)
(2,409 + 335) * (1 + 0.50)
~4,116 Effective Hp

That is a substantial Effective HP increase, though, not in and of itself over powered as long as its not a constant thing right? The issue is what comes next. Using my build as a reference, I have 116% Global Recharge while Hasten is up. Reconstruction is still unslotted in this example. With this, which is a MODEST amount of recharge, to the point of probably getting me ridicule from other Regen mains, Recon is on a cooldown of 27.75 seconds.

Using your proposed duration, this means that this Effective HP cap, is permanant, 30 seconds is well under the recharge rate of most builds, even relatively cheap ones, you only need 30% recharge from sets, and hasten to achieve this. 20 seconds, the duration you proposed as a "maybe" is still VERY achievable, because again, my proposed build here has ZERO recharge slotting in Reconstruction itself. In fact with 2 lvl 50+5 recharge IOs alone, you can reach 30.63 seconds.

Getting Reconstruction down as low as 15 seconds to recharge is an obtainable goal, and 20-30 seconds should be considered normal in end game builds with 30 seconds being the default of properly slotted builds for below 50 (even if it takes 3 SOs). None of this is factoring in the fact that you can nearly double the 335 listed above, pushing the effective hp up another 400ish hp.

So putting that all together, your proposed change leads to an Effective Hp of...
hp          absorb       heal slotting    resistance
(2,509 + (335 * (1 + 0.80))) * ( 1 + 0.50)
(2,509 + 603) * 1.50
3,112 * 1.50

4,668 Effective Hp

That's 4.6k max hp, with an uptime of 100% That is HUGE for a scrapper.

Now you could argue the solution is to just reduce uptime, either make the recharge longer, or make the absorb shorter lived. The problem is the gap this leaves.

Lets say you limit it to 10 seconds, average strong builds will have about a 20 second recharge, so thats a 50% up time, making it significantly more reasonable. Alright but now you bring back what Reconstruction already did. If, say, you take a big boy hit for 1k damage after mitigation, yer down to 1,509. With both your changes and how it is now, and using the 603 of a slotted recon, we can jump back to 2,112 hp. However, one of these will work in concert with your regen to bring you back to the hp cap in just a few seconds, the other will exceed it, then fall off.

Using my build as an example im at roughly 60 hp/s regen without using Instant Healing. So ill be back to the HP cap in about 6.6 seconds. However with your changes that'll actually take 16.6 seconds, and after the first 6.6 you'd actually be ahead due to the absorb. Great!... for the next 3.4 seconds. After that you will find yourself at 2,109 total hp. This is below where unchanged reconstruction would leave you after 10 seconds, and leaves you vulnerable. Keep in mind, 10 seconds have passed, another big hit is likely right around the corner, and you aren't even fully recovered from the first.

On the flip side if you have the absorb last 20-30 seconds, you'll be able to keep this absorb up permanently. This not only introduces the above Effective Hp issue, but also introduces a sustain problem.

See we can break Reconstruction's value into regen. Again using the 603 before, at a 20 second recharge, a reasonable value, that's functionally 30 hp/s which is... ALOT. Keep in mind that is 1/2 the regen value of my build standing still with toggles and Dull Pain. This is constrained, just like that regen, by the fact that there is an hp cap that I cant exceed, no matter how hard I try. So while a huge amount of regen (seriously how can you argue you'd consider skipping that?) its entirely depending on reaction and risk taking to take advantage of optimally. This is why its allowed to be this strong.

Now lets look at your changes. The effective regen is the same, the absorb is the same as the hp healed, and the recharge time is the same, with an uptime of 20 seconds, permaing it is more than reasonable and a likely build goal. So one can argue that this regen value is in play at all times and only loses effectiveness when yer not taking enough damage to break the barrier, which in that case, you don't care because yer not at risk. Additionally your reaction window to use it reactively is much bigger, and you can simply do so any time the green bar moves at all.

In then end your change, either A. Leaves you with a weakened state when the absorb is down if you try to use it reactively. or B. litteraly increases my pre Instant Healing effective regen by 50%, and with Instant healing on its STILL an 18.75% increase.

THIS is my point dude, sorry for the long ass rant to get here, but no matter how you slice it, your changes to Recon are either a serious nerf, or a HUGE buff, well into the OP territory. No ammount of jiggling with the absorb values, recharge time, or duration, will change this either. Because at the end of the day, the problem is that either you are giving up a tool to recover a permanent resource (health) or you are gaining a tool that gives you significantly more of that resource (absorb stacked on health and healing) You cant hit the trade off you seem to want with this change where you'd get the absorb stacking benefit SOMETIMES, but keep the health recovery tool.





A better way to accomplish what I think you want? And What I think actually has some merit to consider, even if its not needed, is to ADD a TINY absorb to Recon, or better, as a separate power. (not a real option obviously unless its made a sub power of integration like many travel powers today). Something that doesn't take away an existing tool, isn't permenant, and gives, say, 100-200 absorb, unenhancable. That would give you a preemptive mitigation tool, call it Preemptive Recovery, or something like that. Another option would be something like a regenerative counter, where you brace and if hit in the next second or two by X amount of damage, gain a regen spike to quickly recover from it.

However NONE of those are needed. Shadow Meld effectively does what they'd do already, and while its an epic, which sucks, and id prefer something more consistent than the dice of defense and actually in the regen powerset, its an example of what you seem to be looking for. A preemptive solution to incoming damage.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk.

(TL;DR: Big nerd man explains why numbers go brrr and regen is actually mostly fine and just needs a little pick me up to cover one or two of its debuff weaknesses at most.)
 

Yeah sorry I didn't mean to sound like I was discounting what you said, just giving the opposition to it. I understood everything you said before you even wrote that down so a bit unnecessary lol.

 

When I mentioned about the key part, the issue isn't about Recon BEING absorb, but rather figuring out the appropriate rech/duration.

 

I have also thought considering all of our posts, the best resource seems to be to keep its stats, but rather then half the value as heal and half as absorb.

 

And per shadow Meld, epics should help but never be a full crutch of a set.

[Koopak]

8 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Yeah sorry I didn't mean to sound like I was discounting what you said, just giving the opposition to it. I understood everything you said before you even wrote that down so a bit unnecessary lol.

 

When I mentioned about the key part, the issue isn't about Recon BEING absorb, but rather figuring out the appropriate rech/duration.

 

I have also thought considering all of our posts, the best resource seems to be to keep its stats, but rather then half the value as heal and half as absorb.

 

And per shadow Meld, epics should help but never be a full crutch of a set.

Half and Half could kinda work but its still more or less the same issue, like i mentioned in the end of my TED talk, something like a 5-10% absorb added to recon, or adjusted from recon say... 235hp, and 100 absorb, could probably work, but i don't think it would really help much. At best that just makes Recon safer to use, and gestures toward the Effective HP issue.

I agree Shadow Meld shouldn't be a crutch, I disagree with your implication that it is. Its a tool, one that works VERY well on ANY resistance/regen set. Its not inherently more effective on Regen, and you absolutely don't need it to excel. I use it because iv given up 4 power picks, and a power pool to get flavor powers that give me ZERO durability or damage. So since that locked me out of the Fighting Pool and stacking CJ and other crap, Shadow Meld was the most bang for my buck to compensate.

If i were to re do my build with no fucks given toward RP consistency and such and focus purely on optimal play, i wouldn't need it, and actually would consider dropping it for Blaze Mastery and that dank Char/Melt Armor combo.

Edited April 29, 2021 by Koopak

[arcane]

Y’all just makin me want to make more regens tbh. 

[BrandX]

8 hours ago, Koopak said:

A better way to accomplish what I think you want? And What I think actually has some merit to consider, even if its not needed, is to ADD a TINY absorb to Recon, or better, as a separate power. (not a real option obviously unless its made a sub power of integration like many travel powers today). Something that doesn't take away an existing tool, isn't permenant, and gives, say, 100-200 absorb, unenhancable. That would give you a preemptive mitigation tool, call it Preemptive Recovery, or something like that. Another option would be something like a regenerative counter, where you brace and if hit in the next second or two by X amount of damage, gain a regen spike to quickly recover from it.

However NONE of those are needed. Shadow Meld effectively does what they'd do already, and while its an epic, which sucks, and id prefer something more consistent than the dice of defense and actually in the regen powerset, its an example of what you seem to be looking for. A preemptive solution to incoming damage.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk.

(TL;DR: Big nerd man explains why numbers go brrr and regen is actually mostly fine and just needs a little pick me up to cover one or two of its debuff weaknesses at most.)
 

 

Like you said, Shadow Meld is an epic.  So that can be a meh option.

 

However, I don't think one would have to change the name of anything, if they, using your example, tag this absorb onto Integration.    Not even sure it needs to be called a sub power.

 

With Integration not being able to be enhanced, it seems like a good place to add things however.  Though, as a Regen player, I'd love to just see them power be able to be enhanced.  

[Alchemystic]

This is probably gonna get me a lot of hate, but...

Would porting the Sentinel version of Regeneration to all other ATs be a good fix?...

[BrandX]

41 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

This is probably gonna get me a lot of hate, but...

Would porting the Sentinel version of Regeneration to all other ATs be a good fix?...

 

I'm personally meh on it, but I just want simple little tweeks.

 

Powers should be able to be enhanced.  Integration for example.  50% Regen, but I can only enhance 1% of it? o.O  Same with Instant Healing.  Would being to enhance 25/300% (half of the regen) be OP?

 

I feel Resilience should have Resist to ALL.  MoG should have resist to ALL.  MoG should have Defense to ALL (so positional as well as type).  Also, would it hurt to get MoG up to 30 seconds?

 

More Toxic Resist.  This however in the vain of me wanting Dark Armor to be able to cap Negative Energy Resist on it's own, and for Energy Aura to have high Energy Resist (if not cap it on it's own).  Just fits the concept imo.  😛 This could be added simply by raising the Toxic Resist in Resilience.

 

However, I have liked other suggestions.  The Resistance to Debuffs for example.  No native ToHit or Defense (outside a 15 second power), but damn if Regen won't resist the debuffing of it!   Regen debuff resist would be nice 🙂

 

Now, I know people go, "Oh!  You're playing it wrong!"  However, before Incarnates, I haven't felt Regen was equal to a lot of sets, at least in the area of IO builds.  However, yes, with Incarnate powers, well yeah, Barrier goes a long way 😛

[Yomo Kimyata]

Not responding to anyone in particular:

 

You're playing it wrong.

 

I'm not saying you suck as a player.  I'm saying that playing regeneration as an armor is very different from most other armors.  It's click happy.  Don't play regen if you don't want to click.  It's forward thinking (I need to hit Instant Healing before I take on these Arachnos).  Don't play regen if you don't want to think ahead.

 

Yes, you could add all kinds of bells and whistles to regeneration.  But at the end of the day, I want extra kudos for soloing Hamidon on a regen brute.

 

Thank you for your attention.

[Koopak]

3 hours ago, Tyrannical said:

This is probably gonna get me a lot of hate, but...

Would porting the Sentinel version of Regeneration to all other ATs be a good fix?...

No i don't think it would. Don't get me wrong, there are some nice elements of sentinel regen. Dull Pain being kinda split between an Auto and the Self Rez is weird? But if Dull Pain and the Self Rez were rolled into one entirely and a new power was added? Thats be pretty nice. I despise Instant Regeneration personally, not because its absorb, but because its a toggle. If are gonna get an absorb i want it to be an active mitigation tool, not a set and forget. "Oh im about to take a big hit, let me pop a small absorb barrier to reduce the odds im one-two shot"

 

 

2 hours ago, BrandX said:

 

I'm personally meh on it, but I just want simple little tweeks.

 

Powers should be able to be enhanced.  Integration for example.  50% Regen, but I can only enhance 1% of it? o.O  Same with Instant Healing.  Would being to enhance 25/300% (half of the regen) be OP?

 

I feel Resilience should have Resist to ALL.  MoG should have resist to ALL.  MoG should have Defense to ALL (so positional as well as type).  Also, would it hurt to get MoG up to 30 seconds?

 

More Toxic Resist.  This however in the vain of me wanting Dark Armor to be able to cap Negative Energy Resist on it's own, and for Energy Aura to have high Energy Resist (if not cap it on it's own).  Just fits the concept imo.  😛 This could be added simply by raising the Toxic Resist in Resilience.

 

However, I have liked other suggestions.  The Resistance to Debuffs for example.  No native ToHit or Defense (outside a 15 second power), but damn if Regen won't resist the debuffing of it!   Regen debuff resist would be nice 🙂

 

Now, I know people go, "Oh!  You're playing it wrong!"  However, before Incarnates, I haven't felt Regen was equal to a lot of sets, at least in the area of IO builds.  However, yes, with Incarnate powers, well yeah, Barrier goes a long way 😛

I disagree with alot of this, save more toxic resist, and that mostly because "fuck it why not" its not like regen getting toxic resist cap would really change much and its thematic.

Resiliance is resist ALL, as is MoG minus the psi hole which iv never minded, even when MoG put you down to 10% hp (i actually miss that, id have prefer to keep that and just buff it with damage or some crap but I'm weird and like risky powers like that and Rage, that's a rant for another day)

So MoG for 30 seconds? Not horrible but ill point out that currently you can Shadow Meld -> MoG -> Shadow Meld for 45 seconds of godliness (minus long cast times) so that would become a full 60 seconds. Not the worst, probably not OP, but something to be cautious of.

Enhancing Integration and Instant Healing more though is iffy. You can enhance 2/3 of integration and 1/4 of Instant Healing. If those were opened to 100% they'd either have to be nerfed, making unenhanced low level play SUCK, or they'd become obscenely overpowered.

 

 

32 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Not responding to anyone in particular:

 

You're playing it wrong.

 

I'm not saying you suck as a player.  I'm saying that playing regeneration as an armor is very different from most other armors.  It's click happy.  Don't play regen if you don't want to click.  It's forward thinking (I need to hit Instant Healing before I take on these Arachnos).  Don't play regen if you don't want to think ahead.

 

Yes, you could add all kinds of bells and whistles to regeneration.  But at the end of the day, I want extra kudos for soloing Hamidon on a regen brute.

 

Thank you for your attention.

 

 

This is generally true but ill contend Regen IS just a touch behind, not "oh god fix it now" just "could use one or two things to clean it up" You may notice i regularly argue for MORE reactive elements. I will also note it is pretty memey how regen can just... ignore Hamidon's damage.

[BrandX]

56 minutes ago, Koopak said:

I disagree with alot of this, save more toxic resist, and that mostly because "fuck it why not" its not like regen getting toxic resist cap would really change much and its thematic.

Resiliance is resist ALL, as is MoG minus the psi hole which iv never minded, even when MoG put you down to 10% hp (i actually miss that, id have prefer to keep that and just buff it with damage or some crap but I'm weird and like risky powers like that and Rage, that's a rant for another day)

So MoG for 30 seconds? Not horrible but ill point out that currently you can Shadow Meld -> MoG -> Shadow Meld for 45 seconds of godliness (minus long cast times) so that would become a full 60 seconds. Not the worst, probably not OP, but something to be cautious of.

Enhancing Integration and Instant Healing more though is iffy. You can enhance 2/3 of integration and 1/4 of Instant Healing. If those were opened to 100% they'd either have to be nerfed, making unenhanced low level play SUCK, or they'd become obscenely overpowered.

 

As for the filling the psi hole, that's more of a "Why was it there to begin with?"   Unless the idea is to have some damage type that gets through to you when MoG is going.

 

Your MoG -> Shadow Meld reply, assumes one has Shadow Meld.  If one is going on and saying "Regeneration is fine just learn to play it right" based on taking Shadow Meld, then that's an issue.

 

As for enhancing Integration 2/3 and Instant Healing 1/4, I'll have to double check in game, because going by Mids numbers, Integration goes from 51% base to 51.96% with 96% enhancing (2 +5 Heal Enhancements).  Instant Healing 602% base to 603.9%

 

If Mids is wrong on that, I'll change up my slotting for more Healing enhancement on those powers.

[Koopak]

59 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

As for the filling the psi hole, that's more of a "Why was it there to begin with?"   Unless the idea is to have some damage type that gets through to you when MoG is going.

 

Your MoG -> Shadow Meld reply, assumes one has Shadow Meld.  If one is going on and saying "Regeneration is fine just learn to play it right" based on taking Shadow Meld, then that's an issue.

 

As for enhancing Integration 2/3 and Instant Healing 1/4, I'll have to double check in game, because going by Mids numbers, Integration goes from 51% base to 51.96% with 96% enhancing (2 +5 Heal Enhancements).  Instant Healing 602% base to 603.9%

 

If Mids is wrong on that, I'll change up my slotting for more Healing enhancement on those powers.

Your Mids must be grossly out of date or broken, id recommend a fresh install: https://midsreborn.com/

 

I checked all variants in current Mids as well as my scrapper in game and what i listed is accurate. You can also check in game values via: https://cod.uberguy.net./html/power.html?power=scrapper_defense.regeneration.integration&at=scrapper

 

Which is also up to date with live in game raw data. Current numbers are:

Integration: 100% (enhancable) 50% (unenhancable)
Instant Healing: 200% (enhancable) 600% (unenhancable)


I'm a little annoyed that every time I outline how Shadow Meld can be used people take it as me arguing that you should "just take Shadow Meld" which is NOT the case. What I'm saying here is that is is possible, due to have Regen works, to combine it with certain pool powers to create a significantly more potent period of durability than expected, and that that must be considered in balancing the set. This is NOT the same as saying "Regen should be balanced assuming everyone takes Shadow Meld". What this is saying, is that any changes should be made with the POSSIBILITY of this combination, at least tangentially in mind, and that if something like MoG cant be balanced both on its own AND with Shadow Meld, then either Shadow Meld or MoG need to see significant changes, likely MoG as Shadow Meld, being available to other sets, likely would be the more difficult to adjust.

And again my point wasn't "Ree 30 seconds MoG is op because Shadow Meld" It was "this combo would become noticeably more powerful and that should be watched closely if we play with this change"

Edit: Also wanna note. The reason Shadow Meld is "so great" is because its a decent alternative to the Fighting, Leadership, Jumping trifecta of defense buffs everyone has access to. My build lacked the space for all that, and Shadow Meld gave me a way to plug that hole. Most sets are kinda assumed to be running some of that trifecta if not all of it when people discuss them, and Shadow Meld is definitely weaker than that. I just am highlight a unique edge case oddity that could be broken if mishandled.

Edited April 30, 2021 by Koopak

[arcane]

13 hours ago, Tyrannical said:

This is probably gonna get me a lot of hate, but...

Would porting the Sentinel version of Regeneration to all other ATs be a good fix?...

Yeah, I’d be against it, and same goes for all the others - including SR, which has a similar following of people that bizarrely think the non-sentinel version is weak when it isn’t.

[UberGuy]

SR isn't exciting, but it's anything but weak. There are stronger sets, mostly because some other sets can combine high mitigation with high sustain (which SR has none of), but my SR is one of the characters I can basically wade into any content except Rularuu and not break a sweat. Massed Mu can be a problem just because of the end drain and -recovery, and so can massed Psi or Toxic damage. (Even Psi and Tox which are tagged melee/ranged/AoE will hit some of the time, and SR's scaling resists don't work on those damage types.)

 

I would want nothing to do with a port of Sentinel Regen. Non-Sentinel Regen could really use some tweaks, but it does not require wholesale rewrite of how it currently plays: click heavy.

 

I wish more people would search for existing threads before posting. We have several of these Regen threads already, and I already posted suggestions in those threads, as did others.

[UberGuy]

I also posted in those other threads about how +absorb is a horrible idea as replacement for either +maxHP or +regen. It's fine, in terms of buffing the set to add it to existing +maxHP and regen (though it's maybe hard to explain lorewise), but Absorb is inferior to +maxHP and +regen for reasons mentioned already in this thread. And many people seem to fail to grasp that +absorb is still functionally HP, HP replacement/gain is a linear offset to DPS, and Regen's challenges relative to other sets are due to the fact that Defense and DR are nonlinear. The more you have, the longer you live against a given DPS in a 1/(1-mitigation) way. Absorb does not to provide that kind of survival, and no HP recovery rates the devs would ever give us ever will.

Edited April 30, 2021 by UberGuy

[Naraka]

I don't think making Recon an absorb click would be that bad but I bet the first thing people would be asking is "can you put more than one power on auto-cast?"

[Haijinx]

On 4/29/2021 at 11:56 AM, arcane said:

Y’all just makin me want to make more regens tbh. 

Nerf all of Arcane's Regens