Talking crap about Elec...

[Snarky]

I have seen some recent questioning of my Elec/Temp all ranged build.  Really shit talking Elec basically.  I do not love Elec.  The animations are spot on but I dont have Elec power characters in my head and have to bend my mind to fit concepts.  Give me a Dark/Dark Ranged Blaster and I will (mostly) go away.  

 

I have seen quite a few posts talk about the Elec penalty.  Which I think most are referring to the mostly nonexistent secondary effects.  But I have seen smack talk about Elec damage as well.  Is it really that bad.

 

I look at Mids.  Elec T9 Nuke does same area and damage as other ball nukes.  I do the aim+buildup+T9 and +4/x8 mobs disappear a lot of the time in farms (hoverblasting Nukes on a farm is gold folks....)

 

In the modern game teams do so much damage secondary effects....they never really affect anything.  If the mobs are gone how effective is Dark's to hit debuff?  THEY ARE DEAD.  (I really want ranged Dark, but lets get real...)

 

[DarknessEternal]

3 hours ago, Snarky said:

I look at Mids.  Elec T9 Nuke does same area and damage as other ball nukes.

 

And it recharges 20% slower and does nothing meaningfully extra to the guys that live, eg bosses and higher.

[DrInfernus]

As usual, the ‘insane damage or not worth playing’ lot tend to skewer the reality of Elec Blast. Yes, Elec blast isn’t as high damage as it could be, but it’s good enough. 
 

Fast snipes have changed the set a little, for the better. It used to suffer for a lack of a genuine top level single target attack, but the snipe helps massively there too. You can also proc out Tesla Cage to fill the void too. 
 

In my experience, Elec blast could do with some help. The Sentinel set is much better, for example. But I don’t think anyone should be put off playing it.

[macskull]

Fire Blast's secondary effect is "more damage," so in essence every other set is trading that extra damage for secondary effects. In Elec's case, it's a very binary secondary effect which is completely and utterly useless until the enemy's endurance is at zero and their recovery is floored. The set lacks real single-target damage because it gives up an actual T3 blast in exchange for Tesla Cage (which is addressed on Sentinels at least). The snipe changes helped, sure, but they also equivalently buffed every other set with a snipe, most of which already had a T3 blast. Voltaic Sentinel is also a pretty awful power which doesn't help the set out either.

[Underfyre]

1 hour ago, macskull said:

Fire Blast's secondary effect is "more damage," so in essence every other set is trading that extra damage for secondary effects. In Elec's case, it's a very binary secondary effect which is completely and utterly useless until the enemy's endurance is at zero and their recovery is floored. The set lacks real single-target damage because it gives up an actual T3 blast in exchange for Tesla Cage (which is addressed on Sentinels at least). The snipe changes helped, sure, but they also equivalently buffed every other set with a snipe, most of which already had a T3 blast. Voltaic Sentinel is also a pretty awful power which doesn't help the set out either.

 

I guess it's fun to see how many times someone an be wrong in a single paragraph.

 

The single target chain of 1-2-6-whatever secondary ranged you have is plenty sufficient as a chain to nearly keep up with Fire. We're talking a 3% difference. 10% if you go for Nerve over Musculature to shore up those sad defense numbers.

Adding in the Voltaic Sentinel sees the set surging up 20% over Fire.

 

Long story short, Fire's "more damage" mechanic doesn't add as much damage as everyone wants to believe.

[macskull]

33 minutes ago, underfyre said:

 

I guess it's fun to see how many times someone an be wrong in a single paragraph.

 

The single target chain of 1-2-6-whatever secondary ranged you have is plenty sufficient as a chain to nearly keep up with Fire. We're talking a 3% difference. 10% if you go for Nerve over Musculature to shore up those sad defense numbers.

Adding in the Voltaic Sentinel sees the set surging up 20% over Fire.

 

Long story short, Fire's "more damage" mechanic doesn't add as much damage as everyone wants to believe.

I don't know where you are getting your numbers, but you might want to apply your first sentence to your own post. The only set that can even be kind of competitive with Fire for raw damage output is Ice, and that's with a lot of procs and a lot of recharge from buffs or set bonuses. If the only thing you are looking at is the absolute damage an attack does then sure, Fire is only a little bit better but... animation time is a thing that exists and it's probably the biggest reason Fire is the best set out there if you care about damage. Damage isn't what matters - damage per animation time is.

Edited May 8, 2021 by macskull

[ScarySai]

Here's the thing with CoH.

 

If you IO out anything and at least attempt to competently make a build, you should be fine for 95% of the content in the game. You won't be a living god like some other characters can be, but an elec blast character can prosper.

 

But despite that, it's worth noting that elec blast has to be one of, if not the worst primary damage set in the game. I think Battle Axe does more, but I'll have to check the numbers again. It's in desperate need of a balance pass.

[Underfyre]

23 minutes ago, macskull said:

I don't know where you are getting your numbers, but you might want to apply your first sentence to your own post. The only set that can even be kind of competitive with Fire for raw damage output is Ice, and that's with a lot of procs and a lot of recharge from buffs or set bonuses. If the only thing you are looking at is the absolute damage an attack does then sure, Fire is only a little bit better but... animation time is a thing that exists and it's probably the biggest reason Fire is the best set out there if you care about damage. Damage isn't what matters - damage per animation time is.

So unfortunately a little more goes into damage output than an abilities sheer DPA. Feel free to tell me how I didn't slot correctly, or how my bullshit spreadsheet isn't an accurate representation. 

[DarknessEternal]

Fire has no need to pause or use fire ball in single target rotations.

[Underfyre]

With what rotation? If you have a better rotation to offer, share it. I've fiddled with rotations endlessly building this, and this is the highest output I've found.

[DreadShinobi]

@underfyreYou are comparing Electric blast utilizing a secondary powerset attack to supplement the attack chain with Fire Blast not utilizing any secondary.

 

When I play my fire blasters, I don't use Flares at all in a rotation. Fire does as well as it does because the DPA of Blaze is just massive. You build your rotation entirely around it, this does not mean filling your gaps with flares, it means using the low animation time of Blaze to fit in your high DPA melee attacks.

[ScarySai]

1 hour ago, DarknessEternal said:

Fire has no need to pause or use fire ball in single target rotations.

Fireball is higher priority than flares as filler on ST.

[Underfyre]

Well some good has come of this. While I was searching for a secondary that could possibly add to Fire's primary damage output, I found out that Shinobi applies a "crit" chance that is just a damage proc. So now I need to code that in to the sheet.

[Myrmidon]

I can already tell that this thread is going to be entertaining.

[Sir Myshkin]

1 hour ago, Myrmidon said:

I can already tell that this thread is going to be entertaining.

 

Im staying out of this one 😅

[Snarky]

8 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

I can already tell that this thread is going to be entertaining.

I do know how to make 'em...  I'll let this simmer then drop a thread about my new Ice/Temp/Ice.  I am sure the decision to take epic ice pool on a blaster alone will generate more hate (despite the fact that Elec gets a lot of hate for no secondary effect and Ice Epic tilts Ice/Temp hard into slow everything to a crawl wile in DoTs....)

[Underfyre]

Follow up. After changing to more of a Blapper approach, I found a much higher damage secondary that pushes Fire past Electric.

So Electric without the VS does about 13% less dps than Fire. Electric with VS does similar dps, but you need to find a way to keep his attention.

The standout is Dark pushing out 5% more damage than Fire.

[ScarySai]

1 hour ago, underfyre said:

I found a much higher damage secondary that pushes Fire past Electric.

Fire's already past electric. The only thing you're trying to prove here is if the secondary can salvage it.

 

There's a reason you don't see elec/fire, elec/psi or elec/anything that much right now.

[Underfyre]

2 hours ago, ScarySai said:

Fire's already past electric. The only thing you're trying to prove here is if the secondary can salvage it.

 

There's a reason you don't see elec/fire, elec/psi or elec/anything that much right now.

The AT isn't just the primary tho, is it? The AT has a secondary available to literally no other AT in the game. Limiting dps to just the primary isn't really a dps check. That's like people telling me I couldn't use the Psi epic on Sentinels when doing comparisons. It's part of the AT, it's a viable way to shore up a weakness of the primary set.

[ScarySai]

23 minutes ago, underfyre said:

The AT isn't just the primary tho, is it?

Irrelevant, because fire has the exact same options as elec does with secondaries, but also can grab other stuff due to not relying on such things.

 

If the question is X vs Y, adding Z arbitrarily just renders the whole comparison irrelevant.

[Underfyre]

This isn't arbitrary. It's literally part of the set. This isn't me cherry picking an ability and saying "but if Electric could have crits like Scrappers it would keep up!"

 

Whatever. Here's both sets bound to just their primary attack sets because apparently that's how Blasters are played. A 9% difference.

Edited May 9, 2021 by underfyre

[DreadShinobi]

It would be interesting to see what specific slotting @underfyreis using for their dps calculations, ie procs, recharge value, enhanced damage %, etc.

 

I don't know if they realized that their damage values for each power changed significantly from one post to the next. IE flares in the first pure ranged post being at 169.7 and 185.21 in the more recent post, charged bolts at 190 in the first post and 188.88 in the second. Flares base damage is 63.19 and charged bolts is 62.56. For a valid comparison there should be some consistency between slotting. Especially in the first post, Flares damage should not have been below charged bolts (169.7 vs 190). It also appears recharge values for the set comparisons are not equivalent.

 

The one thing that stood out to me that is actually relevant to @Snarky's original post, is that @underfyre did comparisons of damage potential of blaster damage ignoring their secondary, and a blaster that actually utilizes their secondary melee attacks. The Fire/EM with melee attacks included in the rotation compared to a blaster that ignores their melee damage potential or otherwise doesn't want to play as a 'blapper' or wants to hover blast, or whatever the reasoning may be, is taking about a 28% dps loss (if the math I did was even correct). Though because proc slotting was not shown the consistency of slotting and proc slotting potential should certainly be clarified. Melee attacks have a whole lot more proc opportunities than their ranged counterparts. 

 

edit: math not correct

per underfyre's enhanced values:

fire/em blapper at 350 dps vs pure ranged fire blaster at ~250 dps is a 40% dps increase.

 

This is why blappering is a part of being a blaster and doesn't deserve seperate terminology imo. Sentinel, Corruptor, and Defender have better options to play blast sets as a purely ranged playstyle than a blaster.

Edited May 10, 2021 by DreadShinobi

[DreadShinobi]

6 hours ago, ScarySai said:

Irrelevant, because fire has the exact same options as elec does with secondaries, but also can grab other stuff due to not relying on such things.

 

If the question is X vs Y, adding Z arbitrarily just renders the whole comparison irrelevant.

This is false. Some primaries are capable of having more full attack chains as a standalone set than others and some sets complement having the melee attacks in their attack chain more than others. Certain primaries rely more on cones for damage and will have a harder time adding melee attacks into their attack chain fluidly. Some sets like water, beam rifle, and sonic have internal mechanics or -res debuffs that change how much benefit or loss you get from adding external set attacks to the attack chain. Some sets have low DPA attacks all around and their highest DPA attack might be Energy Punch, which would optimally be focused on in an attack chain, compared to Fire that will always prioritize Blaze. Fire blasting is a good example that really benefits from being played as a melee blaster because Blaze is such an outlier in terms of DPA. Electric also benefits alot from having the melee options fill out its attack chain, but for different reasons than fire, and the output increase is not equivalent.

Edited May 10, 2021 by DreadShinobi

[Underfyre]

1 hour ago, DreadShinobi said:

It would be interesting to see what specific slotting @underfyreis using for their dps calculations, ie procs, recharge value, enhanced damage %, etc.

 

Knowing I'm only going to be using 4-5 attacks in a chain I generally only focus on slotting those powers and everything else in a build is aiming towards capping out defense or something.

 

The slotting for both builds was pretty similar:

Superior Winter's Bite in the weakest attack, ie. Flares or Charged bolts. They're weak, they're fillers and they have low proc chances anyway.

Fire Ball and Ball Lightning, all procs and Annihilation -Res. Both only have the 4 procs available, so the other 2 slots I usually just put in the rest of Annihilation to shore up accuracy.

Blaze gets the full set of Blaster's Wrath.

Blazing Bolt and Zapp 5 slot Apocalypse with the proc. Dealer's choice on whether it gets Decimation or Gladiator's Javelin at the end, whatever yields more damage. Usually minor difference at best.

Voltaic Sentinel is kind of a special case. 5 slotting Soulbound Allegiance with the proc, and tacking the Blaster's Wrath proc on the end yields big results, and Electric doesn't particularly need the full set anywhere with just the 2 single target abilities.

 

The two melee abilities use Superior Blistering Cold and Hecatomb with the proc + Touch of Death just because negative has a low resistance chance globally.

 

As for set bonuses... I'll just post a picture. I didn't make any builds, these are just the bonuses I usually end up with after making a build, so they're a good ballpark. The Incarnates chosen are whatever yielded the highest damage. Agility/Nerve because a Blaster chasing defenses will take one or the other.

 

Actually making the build and getting exact numbers will change things minorly.

 

As for damage changes across the different pictures, the sheet is dynamic, so changing something like just swapping an ability will change the total time, changing the amount of Defiance and Hybrid Assault and Annihilation up time.

 

Edited May 10, 2021 by underfyre

[ScarySai]

1 hour ago, DreadShinobi said:

This is false.

It's not false, they have the same exact power options. If the goal is to compare elec blast and fire, you don't introduce a secondary into it, especially in not such a lopsided fashion. Elec isn't even in the same league as the other blast sets, it's not even close and it needs help.

 

And that goes double for the ATs that can't take filler attacks, like blasters can.