Confront/Placate Buffs

[Alchemystic]

So far from what I've gleaned from the community, Stalker's Placate and Scrapper's Confront have fallen by the wayside in today's fast paced combat environment, and from what I understand is that compared to Taunt, which affects the whole mob, these powers do little to control the situation.

 

One of the simpler solutions to this is to simply make the powers affect an AoE, which might seem like an easy fix, but presents a few problems too. 

 

Placate would benefit from being made an AoE, allowing you to disengage from several foes and increasing your chances of survival and your ability to land assassin's strike. However, that presents a problem with Smoke Flash, which has the same functionality, but lacks the ability to hide you thereafter. If we make Placate an AoE, we would need to buff Smoke Flash in order to keep it from becoming redundant. Adding a Teleport function to this power may be of use here, as without the ability to hide you, Smoke Flash exists entirely to get you out of trouble. That, or make it similar to the Ancillary version, giving it a -ToHit and -DMG debuff.

 

As for Confront, making it an AoE would make it identical to Taunt, which means that it would start to step on the toes of Brutes and Tankers. We should keep the Taunt functionality there at least, we just need to do something else with the power to give it more utility. One idea I had was to make it a sort of 'Duel' ability, where the power has a higher Taunt magnitude, and nearby foes (not the target) suffer a low Fear and ToHit debuff.

 

So to summarise;

• Make Placate an AoE
• Buff Smoke Flash with additional utility
• Change Confront so it has more aggro management

 

Edited May 21, 2021 by Tyrannical

[TemporalVileTerror]

I do think that Placate and Confront (which, @Tyrannical, you listed as "Challenge" at the end there.  Whoops) could use some more versatility and add to gameplay in really interesting ways.

However . . . in both cases, they would either need to be buffed, or rebalanced completely.  If straight-up buffed, both of them would already push two of the best performing Archetypes in the damage-is-king meta even further ahead of the pack.  I believe Devs on the Homecoming Team have said that they don't want to further empower those Archetypes right now.
If we were to rebalance both Placate and Confront, to give stronger utility but reduce their overall performance by extending Recharge times or something to that effect, then the risk of alienating the players who like these powers as-is becomes a very serious risk.  While the Homecoming Team has demonstrated a willingness to alienate some players in this way, it's usually in situations where those Devs feel a pressing -need- to do so.

 

So, the short of it . . . 
Yes.
But no.

 

As an alternative approach, perhaps some new Invention Sets could offer improved functionality to these Powers.  At least then there's an artificial opportunity cost in the form of Crafting and Slotting.  Suddenly the problem of balance corrects itself (at least to a small extent) by forcing the player to choose between Slots in one place, or Slots to make Placate and Confront -do something.-

Maybe future Melee Sets can be pre-balanced with better versions of Placate and Confront in mind.  Use them as a trial run to see if improved versions of those Powers will be well-received while also maintaining the identities of both Archetypes.
Granted, then we're faced with the issue of some players feeling betrayed that a Set has the audacity to break the "tried and true" pattern.  After all, Kinetic Melee on Scrappers' lack of a normal Build Up is interesting, but not exactly popular, as I understand it.

And then, after all that is said and done, a lot of players have expressed a personal appreciation of having "free picks" in their Builds, since they never feel compelled to take Placate or Confront.

 

At the very, very least . . . we should use both of them as negative examples while developing the Support/Melee Archetype.  Demonstrations of what NOT to do.

[Replacement]

What sucks is, all of the power budget of these 2 ATs is focused into the 8 other powers of their sets. They get to be as strong as they are with the assumption of - at most - 8 of their purchases sunk into primaries.

 

@Captain Powerhouse has had some ideas for buffing Placate in the past which I think would be mostly well-received so pinging in case he would like to farm some forum Rep today.

Personally, I'd like to see it turned into a cone, auto-hit on main target only.

 

For Confront, I used to argue for a "hero" button like you mentioned - high threat taunt or even a target lock status effect (like when it's used vs players). But these days, I lean towards Cottage Burning it for a savage leap-esque gap-closer.

 

People in the past rejected that, iirc one person insisted they needed it to pull individual targets. Honestly, I'm not sure how it makes sense to shout at just one dude, and besides there are Pool attacks.

The compromise version (and also far easier to implement) was just adding a few-second move speed burst to the activation effect.

[InvaderStych]

32 minutes ago, Replacement said:

 

 But these days, I lean towards Cottage Burning it for a savage leap-esque gap-closer.

 

This.  All Day.  Every Day. This And Only This.

 

A single target taunt on a Scrapper is highly unlikely to be useful as anything other than an auto-skip for anything other than the rarest of outlier play.  PVP players please speak up if Confont is useful in that context (as I wouldn't know) and if you'd rather keep it than not.

 

Yes, we have the wonderful goodness of Combat Teleport - but that shouldn't stop us from do the right thing with Confront.  I've always envisioned Scrappers as the type to bee-line the biggest bad and get right up into it's face. 

 

Single-Target, Non-Damaging, Notifies Enemies, With Burst Of Speed's Range.  Maybe without the triple-tap functionality to keep CT desirable- although treating it like BoS (longer gaps between taps, then very long recharge after 3) would obviously be more desirable than a single use with long/very long recharge. It could probably even take a slightly longer activation than the teleport counterparts to make it thematically a "bum-rush" rather than a true "teleport."

 

 

Edited May 21, 2021 by InvaderStych
Clarity

[Replacement]

1 hour ago, InvaderStych said:

 

This.  All Day.  Every Day. This And Only This.

 

A single target taunt on a Scrapper is highly unlikely to be useful as anything other than an auto-skip for anything other than the rarest of outlier play.  PVP players please speak up if Confont is useful in that context (as I wouldn't know) and if you'd rather keep it than not.

 

Yes, we have the wonderful goodness of Combat Teleport - but that shouldn't stop us from do the right thing with Confront.  I've always envisioned Scrappers as the type to bee-line the biggest bad and get right up into it's face. 

 

Single-Target, Non-Damaging, Notifies Enemies, With Burst Of Speed's Range.  Maybe without the triple-tap functionality to keep CT desirable- although treating it like BoS (longer gaps between taps, then very long recharge after 3) would obviously be more desirable than a single use with long/very long recharge. It could probably even take a slightly longer activation than the teleport counterparts to make it thematically a "bum-rush" rather than a true "teleport."

 

 

 

The other part is, if you don't mind the AOE, Provoke exists and could be buffed to accommodate the loss of Confront.

 

As for the specifics, it's absolute pipe dream material (amount of work required) but I would like to see individualized treatment per set, with different pros/cons.  For example, giving Martial Arts Burst of Speed, straight up, also helps patch that set's aoe weakness 

[TemporalVileTerror]

Also, with Confront usually being 1.67s Cast Time, I think if nothing else is going to change, we could probably make it more enticing with a 0.67s Cast Time.
Not sure we can do the same for Placate, though, as much as I'd like it.  I imagine it's "balanced" around the assumption that it needs to chew up a whole 1.5s.  An Invention Unique or Set Bonus which causes Placate to cast at 0.67s would be an absolute dream for me, but of course something like that could be problematic in PvP.  

[Omega Force]

Confront can miss, too, right?  Another reason picking it is a waste.

[TemporalVileTerror]

I think it's Autohit against NPCs, but has an Accuracy Check in PvP.

[Lazarillo]

I'd hate to see Confront changed to be AoE or a *vomiting noises* gap-closer.  It's honestly pretty great right now as a pulling tool and for peeling tough enemies off of squishier allies without interfering majorly with mobs or tanking.  Plus, it's nice for certain raids/trials and such for picking up slack from all the Brutes, especially, who are too cowardly (or too farm-obsessed) to take their own taunts.

 

If Confront were to get an AoE component, I could see it as maybe something more like a ranged ST taunt (with a higher magnitude?) so it keeps its current functionality, but maybe with a PBAoE taunt effect (along with maybe a minor immobilize), to prevent enemies from running away from you.  Basically, you keep what you "have" in terms of aggro (which is zero if you're pulling), but can add to it.

[siolfir]

Let's not forget that Confront also exists on Widows - who don't even get the -range out of it(!) - and Placate on Soldiers who take the Bane route.

 

Also, Smoke Flash has always been a garbage power, and I would be all for replacing it in Stalker Ninjitsu before worrying about Placate... which already has a long recharge that wouldn't need adjusted even if made into an AoE. Confront would most likely need a longer recharge if it started getting additional functionality, though: it's already -75% range on a 3 second recharge (unless you're a Widow).

[Razor Cure]

11 hours ago, Tyrannical said:

Confront have fallen by the wayside in today's fast paced combat

Not to contradict you there Ty, but even way way back when I first went Blueside (I started on CoV when it was still a seperate purchase), I would have seen maybe..5 scrappers with confront, from that time up until the shutdown. Not to say there wasn't more, but the power was 99.9% hated and viewed as useless. So todays combat has just made things worse, sadly.

I think PLacate is still fine and usable, even though only one of my stalkers has it (my savage/bio is more aoe, so a ST placate is meh). And I did take it on both while leveling up, where it is a great panic button, as well as a help till you get the ATOs. About the only thing I could think of (cant make it aoe, for reasons listed in the above replies) would be to give it a +AoE def buff, so that non def based stalkers dont Placate and instantly get hit.

For confront..well, a few of my non-IO'd scrappers have it, but more for lack of anything else to take. As a pulling tool, sure, but you can just as easily pull with Blackwand. Again, making it an AoE seems a bad idea to me. I'd suggest giving it a small +to hit buff or crit chance versus that target only, representing the scrapper psyching themselves up before attacking.

Of course, as others said, buffing both powers does further improve two great ATs..

[siolfir]

28 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

About the only thing I could think of (cant make it aoe, for reasons listed in the above replies) would be to give it a +AoE def buff, so that non def based stalkers dont Placate and instantly get hit.

Would have to be +def(all) since I'm typically not hit by the mob I just placated (unless it's an EB - Placate magnitude needs to be higher so it can affect them) and not many attacks are flagged as AoE. A really short duration (3-5 seconds, enough time to get another attack off / past the interrupt of a slow AS for traditionalists) +30% def(all) would probably add it into a lot of builds, if for no other reason than a LotG mule if it took defense sets.

Edited May 22, 2021 by siolfir
removed some verbiage

[Haijinx]

Leave Confront and Placate Single Target effect, just like now.

But ADD the -Range effect from Tanker/Brute Taunt to both powers, AOE effect exactly like Taunt.

 

Done. 

 

[Replacement]

On 5/21/2021 at 2:23 PM, Lazarillo said:

I'd hate to see Confront changed to be AoE or a *vomiting noises* gap-closer.  It's honestly pretty great right now as a pulling tool and for peeling tough enemies off of squishier allies without interfering majorly with mobs or tanking.  Plus, it's nice for certain raids/trials and such for picking up slack from all the Brutes, especially, who are too cowardly (or too farm-obsessed) to take their own taunts.

 

If Confront were to get an AoE component, I could see it as maybe something more like a ranged ST taunt (with a higher magnitude?) so it keeps its current functionality, but maybe with a PBAoE taunt effect (along with maybe a minor immobilize), to prevent enemies from running away from you.  Basically, you keep what you "have" in terms of aggro (which is zero if you're pulling), but can add to it.

It makes more sense to buff Provoke than to keep 20 (twenty) powers useless just because you don't feel like using a ranged attack to pull.

 

I always find it weird when people oppose gap-closer on a conceptual level - just don't take it?  Afterall, you aren't opposed to making it aoe so a buffed Provoke is, again, the better avenue for you.  This must be tied to the ingrained idea that pool powers have to suck.

 

On 5/22/2021 at 11:43 AM, Haijinx said:

Leave Confront and Placate Single Target effect, just like now.

But ADD the -Range effect from Tanker/Brute Taunt to both powers, AOE effect exactly like Taunt.

 

Done. 

 

Insufficient to make Confront at all a decent pick.

 

You know how I know? It already does that.

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=scrapper_melee.dark_melee.taunt&at=scrapper

 

Edit: rereading this, Haijinx. Are you saying ST mag 4 taunt plus an additional aoe mag 4 taunt, ditto on the -range?

I was reading it as "give confront the same -range debuff" but now I'm doubting.

 

Edited May 24, 2021 by Replacement

[Haijinx]

19 minutes ago, Replacement said:

It makes more sense to buff Provoke than to keep 20 (twenty) powers useless just because you don't feel like using a ranged attack to pull.

 

I always find it weird when people oppose gap-closer on a conceptual level - just don't take it?  Afterall, you aren't opposed to making it aoe so a buffed Provoke is, again, the better avenue for you.  This must be tied to the ingrained idea that pool powers have to suck.

 

Insufficient to make Confront at all a decent pick.

 

You know how I know? It already does that.

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=scrapper_melee.dark_melee.taunt&at=scrapper

 

Edit: rereading this, Haijinx. Are you saying ST mag 4 taunt plus an additional aoe mag 4 taunt, ditto on the -range?

I was reading it as "give confront the same -range debuff" but now I'm doubting.

 

 

For Confront I was suggesting that it Taunt 1 Enemy, But Debuff the range on AOE targets - Making it as good as the taunt power for Range debuffing 

 

For Placate I was suggesting that it placate as it does now, but also debuff the range on AOE targets.  A faster animation would also be nice.  Just use the confront one maybe.  

[Replacement]

38 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

Most melee ATs don't get ranged attacks until around level 40.  For that matter, no powerset or should be relying on pool powers.  They exist for flavor.  Just because you don't feel like actually sticking to a character concept, shouldn't mean current powers that function very well should be eliminated,

 

Scrappers already have a gap closer.  It's called Hurdle.  Oh, and Combat Jumping.  Because going to a pool to get what you need is fine, right? 

Plus, as noted, I am opposed to the idea of making Confront an AoE as a taunt goes. 

Scrappers aren't "relying on" Confront for anything - and its usage statistics back this up. And it's not like "screaming at just one guy with no one else noticing" is part of the Scrapper brand.  

 

If taunting is so important to YOUR fiction, there's a pool for that, and that meets your arbitrary criteria that pools are fluff.

If ST pulling is your aim, then you don't care about fluff and you can grab blackwand for free (and an extra 10' of reach).

 

I'm not going to convince you, I just want you to know why I cannot accept your argument.

 

Tbh though, I'll root for any change that makes them more unique from Brutes. 

 

Edit: apologies on misunderstanding the aoe taunt part. Right, you said if anything do pbaoe, not targeted. Still not my vote but at least it's different from Brute.

Edited May 24, 2021 by Replacement

[Replacement]

26 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

 

For Confront I was suggesting that it Taunt 1 Enemy, But Debuff the range on AOE targets - Making it as good as the taunt power for Range debuffing 

 

For Placate I was suggesting that it placate as it does now, but also debuff the range on AOE targets.  A faster animation would also be nice.  Just use the confront one maybe.  

This... Would be hilarious for those weird low-mid level parties where everyone's a controller or a blaster and then there's you on Scrapper with no taunt aura and the trollers keep panic immobilizing everything in Paragon City.

I can't be the only person who finds themselves in this party at least once/year.

[Myrmidon]

Confront (and it’s friends) are the way that Scrappers keep AV aggro, so that one might not receive any adjustments.

 

If Placate was replaced by an AoE/Cone (especially on the older melee sets), we would definitely have to venerate the Captain as divinity.

[DreadShinobi]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I still want a taunt aura in the power pool, however likely that it is to happen I really don't care, it is just what I am hopeful for. I'd like the option to have a taunt aura on a fiery aura or dark armor scrapper etc, or an arachnos, or a human PB/WS, or a blaster if I'd like to play into something more ludicrous. 

Edited May 24, 2021 by DreadShinobi

[Menelruin]

What if Confront is made into a ranged ATTACK that carries a Taunt and -Range secondary effect?  Could be different for each power set; Claws and other weapons could be a dash-there-and-back blitz, Stone and other Elemental melee could be tossing a ball of the element like a blazing spitwad, etc.....

[Naraka]

17 hours ago, Replacement said:

Scrappers aren't "relying on" Confront for anything - and its usage statistics back this up. And it's not like "screaming at just one guy with no one else noticing" is part of the Scrapper brand.  

 

If taunting is so important to YOUR fiction, there's a pool for that, and that meets your arbitrary criteria that pools are fluff.

If ST pulling is your aim, then you don't care about fluff and you can grab blackwand for free (and an extra 10' of reach).

 

I'm not going to convince you, I just want you to know why I cannot accept your argument.

 

Tbh though, I'll root for any change that makes them more unique from Brutes. 

 

Edit: apologies on misunderstanding the aoe taunt part. Right, you said if anything do pbaoe, not targeted. Still not my vote but at least it's different from Brute.

 

Your argument could be used to argue against your point as well.

 

If a gap closer is so important to YOUR fiction, there's a pool (multiple, in fact) for that.

 

I'd further profess that Scrappers don't need buffs to make them anymore reliant on Confront than they already are.

 

Frankly, I hate having to argue against buff changes all the time but no one's going to ever suggest putting a purpose for such buffs by, you know, making the game more challenging to require all these new bells and whistles.  You are perfectly capable without adding on more arbitrary effects onto an already popular and strong AT(s) purely because you don't like a purely utility effect.  Or what effect do you already have that you'd be willing to lose to add it onto this new power?  Nothing?  I thought so...

[Myrmidon]

20 hours ago, DreadShinobi said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I still want a taunt aura in the power pool, however likely that it is to happen I really don't care, it is just what I am hopeful for. I'd like the option to have a taunt aura on a fiery aura or dark armor scrapper etc, or an arachnos, or a human PB/WS, or a blaster if I'd like to play into something more ludicrous. 

 

I am all-in for this.

[Replacement]

16 hours ago, Naraka said:

 

Your argument could be used to argue against your point as well.

 

If a gap closer is so important to YOUR fiction, there's a pool (multiple, in fact) for that.

 

I'd further profess that Scrappers don't need buffs to make them anymore reliant on Confront than they already are.

 

Frankly, I hate having to argue against buff changes all the time but no one's going to ever suggest putting a purpose for such buffs by, you know, making the game more challenging to require all these new bells and whistles.  You are perfectly capable without adding on more arbitrary effects onto an already popular and strong AT(s) purely because you don't like a purely utility effect.  Or what effect do you already have that you'd be willing to lose to add it onto this new power?  Nothing?  I thought so...

Astute!

What we decide is part of the Scrapper fiction is mutable, following the expectations of our little pocket of culture.

 

Consider page 4: we noticed that Tankers in comics domineer the battlefield, but here they hit like wet noodles that did little more than open enemies up to slightly improved attacks by our friends.  The Homecoming team took charge of that opportunity and gave tankers an inherent identity they thought fit better.

 

I think "the duelist" works for a scrapper, which is why I rather like the idea of something ridiculous like a mag 10 taunt.

But considering it's been about 20 issues since Scrapper "tanks" were anything approaching reasonable (and were certainly entered status by the time of Going Rogue), I think it's a similar opportunity to update their theme.

 

I again emphasize my personal preference as "anything that makes them more distinctive from the other melee ATs.". And for me, "lesser version of Taunt" is the opposite of that.

 

For the specifics of theme inclusion, my arguments matter less but are simply:

there's a large difference in theme between combat teleport and a leap attack with a broadsword (and combat jumping would be, to me, an increase in combat mobility but I wouldn't classify it as a gap-closer).

Meanwhile, Confront and Provoke already have the exact identical fiction.  So there is no loss, thematically, to the pivot. 

 

tl;dr: My main contention above was the circular logic of "Scrappers must have an ST taunt as part of their theme, because they have an ST taunt."  Since Scrapper aggro control hasn't been part of the zeitgeist since Hami 1.0, I'll stand my ground against any argument that it's definitive of the AT as a whole.

 

About the scrapper power level- I agree here as well that Scrappers don't really "need" anything that improves performance (just identity).  See my first sentence from my first post in this thread.  But remember that right now, part of that incredible performance leans into the idea of only needing (at most) 8 primary selections.

It's not perfect, but I do take some solace in the idea that if Confront was cottage burnt, it would require a power selection (and thus giving up something else that likely gives better sustained performance) to get the new toy.  It would, in most instances, trade power for utility.  For the builds that don't envision their Scrappers as "zippy," they change nothing (statistically speaking). For the very very few people who use Confront for pulling - they can get better results for free from the p2w.  For the people who like actually like a taunt on a scrapper - maybe we can finally start breaking the taboo on pool powers by making Provoke auto-hit, or including a range debuff when used my a melee AT.

 

@Tyrannical I'd love to get more of your take - really anything to let your thread move beyond my uncanny ability to kill a thread.  

 

My take on your Confront buffs is that it's too much control for a Scrapper, even if the recharge was nerfed down to a minute - though maybe I just value mag 2 minion locks more than most.

 

What about a pbaoe move speed slow on activation (in addition to normal effects)? That would keep you "sticky" but allow the mobs to still try to kill your tanker or brute friend instead of you.

 

[Alchemystic]

@Replacement I'm not really a fan of 'gap closers' since we have combat teleport now, but then again martial Combat has something like that and it's a Manipulation powerset.

[Naraka]

6 hours ago, Replacement said:

Astute!

What we decide is part of the Scrapper fiction is mutable, following the expectations of our little pocket of culture.

 

Consider page 4: we noticed that Tankers in comics domineer the battlefield, but here they hit like wet noodles that did little more than open enemies up to slightly improved attacks by our friends.  The Homecoming team took charge of that opportunity and gave tankers an inherent identity they thought fit better.

 

I think "the duelist" works for a scrapper, which is why I rather like the idea of something ridiculous like a mag 10 taunt.

But considering it's been about 20 issues since Scrapper "tanks" were anything approaching reasonable (and were certainly entered status by the time of Going Rogue), I think it's a similar opportunity to update their theme.

 

I again emphasize my personal preference as "anything that makes them more distinctive from the other melee ATs.". And for me, "lesser version of Taunt" is the opposite of that.

 

For the specifics of theme inclusion, my arguments matter less but are simply:

there's a large difference in theme between combat teleport and a leap attack with a broadsword (and combat jumping would be, to me, an increase in combat mobility but I wouldn't classify it as a gap-closer).

Meanwhile, Confront and Provoke already have the exact identical fiction.  So there is no loss, thematically, to the pivot. 

 

tl;dr: My main contention above was the circular logic of "Scrappers must have an ST taunt as part of their theme, because they have an ST taunt."  Since Scrapper aggro control hasn't been part of the zeitgeist since Hami 1.0, I'll stand my ground against any argument that it's definitive of the AT as a whole.

 

 

One might argue that it's not so much that Scrappers get a "lesser version of Taunt" but rather tanks get a "greater version of Confront" as part of differentiating the melee ATs is also who gets the "better" while the others remain "lesser".  To extend the argument further, the blame for muddying the identity of Scrapper could also fall on buffs given to Stalkers.  I'm sure you've heard me rant about buffs enough (or maybe not, I don't post that often) with some being aimed Stalkers' way.  I don't dislike Stalkers, I just wish they would have made their identity uniquely Stalker rather than Scrapper.1.2 because now Scrappers could be seen as falling behind Stalkers.  I'm sure Scraps still out DPS Stalkers in AoE and clear speeds but Stalkers likely have faster AV kills overall which is good...it's just they do it by becoming a better Scrapper.

 

So to segway back to my point, runaway buffs strikes again.  Just because they (and I don't mean the HC devs) decided to take the simplest route and flubbing up identity shouldn't be the free ride to extra buffs and utility.

7 hours ago, Replacement said:

About the scrapper power level- I agree here as well that Scrappers don't really "need" anything that improves performance (just identity).  See my first sentence from my first post in this thread.  But remember that right now, part of that incredible performance leans into the idea of only needing (at most) 8 primary selections.

It's not perfect, but I do take some solace in the idea that if Confront was cottage burnt, it would require a power selection (and thus giving up something else that likely gives better sustained performance) to get the new toy.  It would, in most instances, trade power for utility.  For the builds that don't envision their Scrappers as "zippy," they change nothing (statistically speaking). For the very very few people who use Confront for pulling - they can get better results for free from the p2w.  For the people who like actually like a taunt on a scrapper - maybe we can finally start breaking the taboo on pool powers by making Provoke auto-hit, or including a range debuff when used my a melee AT.

 

 

 

Complete tangent: I'd be all for improving Scrapper identity and altering certain powers like Confront and even Build Ups and their equivalents, but I'd also want rebalancing.  For example (and I'm not saying it should/would happen), but if they put def caps/diminishing returns on all ATs besides tanks that simulate 40% def instead of 45% and added to Scrapper's confront a "negative crit" debuff on the target for any hits to themselves, that gives them a "squaring off" power for their targeted foe that surpasses their current mitigation FOR THAT TARGET (negative crit explained as the target doing half damage normally but if they get that 5% crit, they do a normal damage hit).  While it is a huge hit to lower their overall ability to stack def to cap by such an amount, you'd actually likely end up with Scrappers being the better option for fighting off big hard targets but less effective at surviving many targets.

 

Tangent off: I don't see your suggestion as more radical than mine (very possible and less meta-breaking), but at the same time, I see it as completely unnecessary.  Same with the changes to Dark Melee.  I know there were people really hating DM before the changes and I'm sure you're pleased with the outcome, but it's basically just another reflavored melee set now with few differing qualities and flubbed the main power I play the set for (Shadow Maul) and I don't like playing the set anymore.  At some point, you have to see, pushing people out and telling them to just go play somewhere else is forcing disenfranchisement and apathy.