Rebuilding rage.

[DrInfernus]

1 minute ago, arcane said:

Because your attacks are better than everyone else’s the rest of the time? It’s called a tradeoff.

I’d say a trade off was how pretty atrocious punch, jab, and haymaker are. Or the long animation in Hurl. Or the -defence in the Rage crash. No one is saying there shouldn’t be a trade off. Just there are plenty of trade-offs already without inflicting a punishment that basically renders you weaker than a chocolate fireguard for 10% of the time. 

[arcane]

Just now, DrInfernus said:

I’d say a trade off was how pretty atrocious punch, jab, and haymaker are. Or the long animation in Hurl. Or the -defence in the Rage crash. No one is saying there shouldn’t be a trade off. Just there are plenty of trade-offs already without inflicting a punishment that basically renders you weaker than a chocolate fireguard for 10% of the time. 

I was avoiding SS on HC for a long time because the tradeoffs all sounded over the top. Once I actually made an SS character again and recalled the true strength of SS with Rage, I’m afraid I no longer agree the tradeoffs are too punishing. I have not had a reason to need Jab or Punch, but Haymaker absolutely ceases to be atrocious once Rage is factored in. 

[DrInfernus]

1 minute ago, arcane said:

This sentence doesn’t seem like it’s coming from someone who’s in touch with the concept of game balance, sorry. They tried implementing this exact philosophy on Titan Weapons, but it created an imbalance that had to be nerfed. Not going to happen.

This is the problem right here. I disagree with you but I’m not saying you lack understanding or aren’t clever enough to get it. 
 

I’ve got and have had about a dozen tanks and brutes over the years on live and HC. I wouldn’t say my SS ones feel any more powerful than my War Mace or Stone Melee. That’s because the set feels balanced by the weak filler attacks. 
 

For that 10%, though, SS certainly feels weaker than every other powerset, AT, or build I’ve ever played. 
 

In my experience and opinion, and mine are just as valid as yours, Rage is what is making the set unbalanced right now. Fixing the crash (note: not removing - I think a trade-off is fair) REbalances it. 

[DrInfernus]

5 minutes ago, arcane said:

I was avoiding SS on HC for a long time because the tradeoffs all sounded over the top. Once I actually made an SS character again and recalled the true strength of SS with Rage, I’m afraid I no longer agree the tradeoffs are too punishing. I have not had a reason to need Jab or Punch, but Haymaker absolutely ceases to be atrocious once Rage is factored in. 

I can accept that. We all play this game and we all love it and we all experience it differently. I’m not saying your opinions or experiences are wrong. I’m just telling you what mine are and asking to be allowed them. 
 

Perhaps it’s time to look at a solution where the path diverges and each side of the argument has an option to satisfy them. A Master Brawler/Practiced Brawler style solution, if you like. 

[arcane]

Agree to disagree. I think it certainly feels stronger than some sets.

 

I am not opposed to reconsidering the nature of the crash, but many ideas do feel like too much for me.

 

I could see the set being not too overpowered if one of its cons was removed. The damage debuff or the defense debuff or the scalars of the attacks but not two or more of those things.

Edited June 20, 2021 by arcane

[Naraka]

16 minutes ago, DrInfernus said:

No, but you’re missing the point. Super Strength IS the power, just like Fire Blast IS the power or Martial Arts IS the power. You’re literally supposed to be able to hit harder than everyone else all the time, otherwise it’d just be strength, not super strength. 
 

So why shouldn’t you be able to use the set’s power all of the time? Why should we be happy with 90%? Could understand if you just lost the buff for 10% of the time, but make you literally unable to bruise a peach for 10% of the time? When you’re meant to have super strength? Come on…

 

To clarify going 3 quotes in:

 

-Someone mentioned the *benefits* of Rage and rebutted with how people fixate on the negatives

-You then state, if several other sets had the negatives of Rage, would the benefits still be benefits.

-I asked do those sets you mentioned have a damage buff equivalent of Rage.

-You say I'm missing the point.

 

The interesting point is, I'm actually in the camp that would consider reworking SS because of how wonky it is built but then I do not play the set.  But I'm also in the camp that would consider putting in more drawbacks to work around in various powers OR pullback some effects to make room for improvements across the board.

 

I view a lot of the arguments as requests to get rid of the negatives partly because they're inconvenient and partly because of RP.  Said arguments could be compelling to some, but I'm not buying it.  Super Strength is merely a powerset name.  I've been making characters for years that takes a powerset and ignore the name and name it something else.  Just because the set is called Super Strength doesn't give it a pass to be better than every other set lol

[Vanden]

  

I’m always interested in what people think of my proposed changes to Super Strength, especially the Rage replacement for the Scrapper port. I think having Brutes and Tankers get Rage and Scrappers and Stalkers get something else is a passable compromise between the people who like Rage (like me) and the people who can’t stand it.

 

 

(You don’t have to tell me you don’t like my proposed Rage changes, I assume people don’t unless they specifically say otherwise. So far I don’t think anyone has.)

Edited June 20, 2021 by Vanden

[Haijinx]

I think there is a general consensus that you can't port SS to scrappers because Rage would be OP.

 

Perhaps a rage "fix" could be wrapped into a reworked set for Scrappers instead of getting bogged down affecting current characters.  

 

Eventually also stalkers, but they would need something that worked with build up. 

[DrInfernus]

1 hour ago, Naraka said:

 

To clarify going 3 quotes in:

 

-Someone mentioned the *benefits* of Rage and rebutted with how people fixate on the negatives

-You then state, if several other sets had the negatives of Rage, would the benefits still be benefits.

-I asked do those sets you mentioned have a damage buff equivalent of Rage.

-You say I'm missing the point.

 

The interesting point is, I'm actually in the camp that would consider reworking SS because of how wonky it is built but then I do not play the set.  But I'm also in the camp that would consider putting in more drawbacks to work around in various powers OR pullback some effects to make room for improvements across the board.

 

I view a lot of the arguments as requests to get rid of the negatives partly because they're inconvenient and partly because of RP.  Said arguments could be compelling to some, but I'm not buying it.  Super Strength is merely a powerset name.  I've been making characters for years that takes a powerset and ignore the name and name it something else.  Just because the set is called Super Strength doesn't give it a pass to be better than every other set lol

I think we are pretty much in agreement tbh. Only places we really differ are that, while I know it’s different for everyone, I think a powerset name is more than just a name. To me, it’s a concept and a key part of a character’s identity. It does matter to me, tbh. 
 

And another, I suppose key, difference is I don’t think SS even WITH Rage is better than every other set. It’s a heavily resisted damage type, relatively light on AoE, matures very late, and has a couple of long animations. I think Rage brings it up to standard rather than sends it over the top, so it’d be nice to have that more than 90% of the time. 
 

But, like I’ve said before. There isn’t really a right or wrong here. We all experience CoH differently and those experiences are all as valid as each other. So it can be frustrating when people (not you) oppose making changes to make a powerset inclusive to all. 

[DrInfernus]

2 hours ago, arcane said:

Agree to disagree. I think it certainly feels stronger than some sets.

 

I am not opposed to reconsidering the nature of the crash, but many ideas do feel like too much for me.

 

I could see the set being not too overpowered if one of its cons was removed. The damage debuff or the defense debuff or the scalars of the attacks but not two or more of those things.

I think it’s really important to protect what people love about rage now. A lot of people love their SS characters exactly how they are. Don’t see why they should have to lose out just because for many others the crash is too much. 
 

If we went down the Master Brawler/Practiced Brawler route, players could choose which one they wanted. For example:

 

Rage: How it is now. Big damage/tohit buff, double stackable, no changes. 
 

Authority (or whatever anyone wants to call it): Slightly smaller damage/tohit buff, unstackable, no crash. Or even a toggle with a decent end cost if you like. 
 

Then no one has to change, no respecs are forced, and everyone gets to define their own theme/character. 
 

That’s where I’m at with it I think in terms of a ‘fix’ 
 

 

Edited June 20, 2021 by DrInfernus

[siolfir]

19 minutes ago, DrInfernus said:

I think it’s really important to protect what people love about rage now. A lot of people love their SS characters exactly how they are. Don’t see why they should have to lose out just because for many others the crash is too much. 
 

If we went down the Master Brawler/Practiced Brawler route, players could choose which one they wanted. For example:

 

Rage: How it is now. Big damage/tohit buff, double stackable, no changes. 
 

Inspiration (or whatever anyone wants to call it: Slightly smaller damage/tohit buff, unstackable, no crash. Or even a toggle with a decent end cost if you like. 
 

Then no one has to change, no respecs are forced, and everyone gets to define their own theme/character. 
 

That’s where I’m at with it I think in terms of a ‘fix’ 
 

 

The problem with the mutually-exclusive power selection option is that @Captain Powerhouse is on the record as saying that he doesn't like it and doesn't want to add any more. So I just treat it as not an option from the beginning of the discussion.

[Lazarillo]

5 hours ago, Vanden said:

That sounds exactly like balance to me.

It's balance to penalize SS for being weaker?

[arcane]

6 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

It's balance to penalize SS for being weaker?

SS is stronger, not weaker, once effects of Rage vs Build Up are factored in soooo... non-useful post.

[Lazarillo]

1 minute ago, arcane said:

SS is stronger, not weaker, once effects of Rage vs Build Up are factored in soooo... non-useful post.

His comment was literally stating that "game balance" was SS using Rage, and being penalized for doing so, being a couple tiers down from the top despite that penalty was "balance".

[arcane]

1 minute ago, Lazarillo said:

His comment was literally stating that "game balance" was SS using Rage, and being penalized for doing so, being a couple tiers down from the top despite that penalty was "balance".

I’m afraid I don’t understand the argument. But to imply that SS comes out of the other end of Rage with crap damage is plainly wrong as far as my observations and calculations go.

[Lazarillo]

Just now, arcane said:

I’m afraid I don’t understand the argument. But to imply that SS comes out of the other end of Rage with crap damage is plainly wrong as far as my observations and calculations go.

It's not a matter of whether the damage is "crap" or not.  It's a matter of whether it's worthy of being the only melee set in the game that penalizes you with downtime.  If not dealing damage is acceptable for the amount of buff Rage gives, then, say, long-animation TW attacks should also do zero damage.  No other set has to "pay" to achieve, not even the sets that are (per the previous posts) more damaging than SS.

[arcane]

1 minute ago, Lazarillo said:

It's not a matter of whether the damage is "crap" or not.  It's a matter of whether it's worthy of being the only melee set in the game that penalizes you with downtime.  If not dealing damage is acceptable for the amount of buff Rage gives, then, say, long-animation TW attacks should also do zero damage.  No other set has to "pay" to achieve, not even the sets that are (per the previous posts) more damaging than SS.

I don’t see it that way. I don’t think you’re paying a damn thing in net terms. You get something for your downtime: the best overall self damage buff in the game. If there wasn’t downtime, the buff literally wouldn’t be justifiable, and you could no longer have it because, yes, that’s how balance works. We could give SS Build Up, but I have a sneaking suspicion everyone would suddenly show their true Rage fandom if that was done.

 

 

[DrInfernus]

31 minutes ago, siolfir said:

The problem with the mutually-exclusive power selection option is that @Captain Powerhouse is on the record as saying that he doesn't like it and doesn't want to add any more. So I just treat it as not an option from the beginning of the discussion.

That’s a shame. I mean, he’s probably right for 95% of cases, although with this one it feels like that leaves taking away from one group to satisfy another is the only option left. 

[arcane]

1 minute ago, DrInfernus said:

That’s a shame. I mean, he’s probably right for 95% of cases, although with this one it feels like that leaves taking away from one group to satisfy another is the only option left. 

Alas, I suppose that’s why we have thousands of possible powerset combinations we can create. In case someone likes one and not another or something like that.

[Vanden]

18 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

His comment was literally stating that "game balance" was SS using Rage, and being penalized for doing so, being a couple tiers down from the top despite that penalty was "balance".

 

No, my comment is that Super Strength has the best, longest-lasting self damage buff in the game, yet in spite of that isn’t the undisputed top dog of the melee sets. Instead, it’s more middle, top-of-the-middle. Because it has been balanced.

[Lazarillo]

8 minutes ago, arcane said:

You get something for your downtime: the best overall self damage buff in the game.

It's not the best, though, if simply playing another set gives you even buff-er damage.

[Lazarillo]

1 minute ago, Vanden said:

No, my comment is that Super Strength has the best, longest-lasting self damage buff in the game

How can it be the best damage buff when you admitted other things do more damage?  It doesn't matter how good it is if it can only be used with a set that's weak.  And thus, the penalty is unjustified.

Edited June 20, 2021 by Lazarillo

[Haijinx]

Just now, Lazarillo said:

How can it be the best when you admitted other things do more damage?

 

The Buff is the best.

 

Damage Buff.

 

Its version of Buildup.

 

The Set is not.

 

If you gave Double Rage to any other set they would annihilate everything.  Single Rage would be like buildup on all the time .. well except for 6.5% of the time 

[arcane]

Just now, Lazarillo said:

It's not the best, though, if simply playing another set gives you even buff-er damage.

It is factually and indisputably the best when averaged over a two minute period or longer with the possible exception of Claws/Dual Blades if activated every 3-4 seconds. I’m going to take the liberty of reading between the lines here though and say your problem sounds like it’s with Jab/Punch/Hurl, not Rage. Am I really wrong?

[arcane]

4 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

How can it be the best damage buff when you admitted other things do more damage?  It doesn't matter how good it is if it can only be used with a set that's weak.  And thus, the penalty is unjustified.

Damage buff magnitude =/= powerset DPS or DPA or pylon time or whatever you’re getting at.

 

No one has ever claimed SS is the clear winner in damage output overall. But ofc there’s zero reason it should since all sets can’t be the best.

Edited June 20, 2021 by arcane