Rebuilding rage.

[Vanden]

Just now, FUBARczar said:

It's not fixating. 

 

It's absolutely fixating, the downside is in effect less than 10% of the time yet it's all you can talk about. That and the name of the power, which has no effect in gameplay.

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

I don't need Accuracy, Rage gives me oodles of +ToHit as well

you are making the case for how stupid broken Rage is.  I know people who only slot their powers with procs.  That's right, ZERO accuracy because they just rely on double stacked Rage, and that way the Rage crash doesn't really affect their damage output.  That is a case in point IMO of how stupid the current state of SS and Rage is in the game.

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

 

It's absolutely fixating, the downside is in effect less than 10% of the time yet it's all you can talk about. That and the name of the power, which has no effect in gameplay.

lol, unlike you with your tiny snippet of a quote I am taking the big picture into view.  But go ahead and fixate on only a couple of words I said.

[Haijinx]

10 minutes ago, siolfir said:

Which actually makes it worse that KOB doesn't follow their own formulas, since they based the recharge on Crushing Uppercut off of Knockout Blow (this was actually stated in the beta for StJ when people questioned why the recharge was so high), which has a longer recharge than it should. Picking a worse power - because it was balanced around the secondary effect of the set (combo level) unlike nearly every other set out there - doesn't help the case.

I must play that other COH where Crushing Uppercut and KOB are actually really good powers.  

 

 

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Naraka said:

 

Okay, let's compare their +damage buff powers...

 

You know that straight power comparisons is useless.

I wasn't just comparing 1 power (T5s).   Go ahead and compare the whole sets.  Even with SS's MASSIVE Damage buff (that everyone uses to justify a Hard Crash) is SS the king of sets? 2nd? 3rd?  No it isn't because the set isn't really balanced and Rage is stupid broken not just because of the antithetical-to-Super-Strength Crash but also because of it crazy buffs which allow for stupid things such as not slotting for accuracy.  Read above there are many ways in which the set is not balanced and Rage is stupid broken.

[Vanden]

1 minute ago, FUBARczar said:

Even with SS's MASSIVE Damage buff (that everyone uses to justify a Hard Crash) is SS the king of sets? 2nd? 3rd?  No it isn't because the set isn't really balanced

 

That sounds exactly like balance to me.

[Haijinx]

3 minutes ago, Vanden said:

 

That sounds exactly like balance to me.

Paging Galaxy Brain!

 

I imagine single rage SS is in the middle of the pack on SO comparisons at 50, just because footstomp is that damn good.  

 

Double Rage most the time probably a few notches higher, prevented from being a top tier set because of the double crashes.

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

 

That sounds exactly like balance to me.

lol you should name yourself king of selective reading or quoting.  It points directly to it being as @Snarky called it manic depressive.  Rage is wildly unbalanced and inserting an extreme crash doesn't make it balanced.  It was just a lazy half A attempt at a fix. 

 

It's funny how many people defend bad design.  Is it just because it's the status quo?  Do they feel like people are attacking the Devs and they must heroically defend them?  

 

[Vanden]

1 minute ago, FUBARczar said:

lol you should name yourself king of selective reading or quoting.  It points directly to it being as @Snarky called it manic depressive.  Rage is wildly unbalanced and inserting an extreme crash doesn't make it balanced.  It was just a lazy half A attempt at a fix. 

 

It's funny how many people defend bad design.  Is it just because it's the status quo?  Do they feel like people are attacking the Devs and they must heroically defend them? 

 

 I don't think you understand. Rage is a stronger self-buff than any other set gets. But Super Strength is not a better set than every other set is, because the advantages Rage gives are made up for by disadvantages elsewhere. Thus, balance.

 

4 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Paging Galaxy Brain!

 

I'm not sure Galaxy Brain's got data on Super Strength, since AFAIK he's only done those charts for Scrappers, Blasters, and Masterminds, none of which get Super Strength.

[Haijinx]

5 minutes ago, Vanden said:

 

 I don't think you understand. Rage is a stronger self-buff than any other set gets. But Super Strength is not a better set than every other set is, because the advantages Rage gives are made up for by disadvantages elsewhere. Thus, balance.

 

 

I'm not sure Galaxy Brain's got data on Super Strength, since AFAIK he's only done those charts for Scrappers, Blasters, and Masterminds, none of which get Super Strength.

Yeah I don't remember any Tanker or Brute comparisons

 

Brute would be hard to do due to fury I suppose.  Of course Fury salves over some of SSs woes with low level performance and Jab . 

[America's Angel]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

Here is my SS/Invul Brute I ran as a main when I first got back to Homecoming.  An homage to all my early SS years in CoV.  Thanks to Hyperstrike for the build.  I still have this thing built up in the 1000 toon garage.  fully incarnated accoladed and never played.  I just have no use for a character that cant do damage with a League captain says "All go NOW"

 

You use Punch Haymaker KO Blow and Footstomp.  When you get Rech nerfed you throw in Kick.  Hurl sucks and is only to take out surgeons and flyers.  The animation is stupid long.

 

This Villain build was built using Mids Reborn 3.0.4.7
https://github.com/Reborn-Team/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!fffSnarky: Level 50 Magic Brute

Primary Power Set: Super Strength
Secondary Power Set: Invulnerability
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Punch -- OvrFrc-Acc/Dmg(A), OvrFrc-End/Rech(3), OvrFrc-Acc/Dmg/End(3), OvrFrc-Dmg/End/Rech(5), OvrFrc-Acc/Dmg/End/Rech(5), SprBrtFur-Rech/Fury%(7)
Level 1: Resist Physical Damage -- RctArm-ResDam(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(7), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg(9), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(9), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(11), GldArm-3defTpProc(11)
Level 2: Temp Invulnerability -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(13), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(13), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(15)
Level 4: Haymaker -- SprUnrFur-Acc/Dmg(A), SprUnrFur-Dmg/Rchg(19), SprUnrFur-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(19), SprUnrFur-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(21), SprUnrFur-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(21), SprUnrFur-Rchg/+Regen/+End(23)
Level 6: Dull Pain -- DctWnd-Heal/Rchg(A), NmnCnv-Heal/Rchg(23)
Level 8: Knockout Blow -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(25), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(25), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(27), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(27), SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc(29)
Level 10: Resist Elements -- RctArm-ResDam(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(29), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg(31), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(31)
Level 12: Kick -- FrcFdb-Rechg%(A)
Level 14: Tough -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(31), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(33), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(33)
Level 16: Unyielding -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(33), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(34), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(34)
Level 18: Rage -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(34)
Level 20: Resist Energies -- RctArm-ResDam(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(36), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg(36), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(36)
Level 22: Weave -- ShlWal-Def(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(37), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(37), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(37), Rct-ResDam%(39)
Level 24: Combat Jumping -- ShlWal-Def(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(39), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(39), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(40)
Level 26: Hurl -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg(A), SprWntBit-Dmg/Rchg(40), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(40), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), SprWntBit-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(42), SprWntBit-Rchg/SlowProc(42)
Level 28: Invincibility -- ShlWal-Def(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(43), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(43), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 30: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(45)
Level 32: Foot Stomp -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(45), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(45), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(46), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(46)
Level 35: Tough Hide -- ShlWal-Def(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(48), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(48), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 38: Maneuvers -- ShlWal-Def(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(50), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(50), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 41: Superior Conditioning -- PrfShf-End%(A)
Level 44: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 47: Physical Perfection -- RgnTss-Regen+(A)
Level 49: Super Jump -- WntGif-ResSlow(A)
Level 1: Fury 
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(15), Mrc-Rcvry+(17)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(17)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 50: Agility Core Paragon 
------------

 

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There's a lot I'd change here. But, if DPS is your concern, then I'd suggest ditching Hurl, picking up Cross Punch (plus boxing to make Cross Punch hit harder), pick up Laser Beam Eyes (or switch to Soul epic for Gloom, or Mu Epic for Ball Lightning). Switch your alpha to Vigor (or possibly musculature w/the +recovery Ageless) and proc out your attacks. Put the Gaussian proc in Invincibility. Focus on more recharge bonuses. Etc.

Edited June 20, 2021 by America's Angel

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

 

 I don't think you understand. Rage is a stronger self-buff than any other set gets. But Super Strength is not a better set than every other set is, because the advantages Rage gives are made up for by disadvantages elsewhere. Thus, balance.

 

 

I'm not sure Galaxy Brain's got data on Super Strength, since AFAIK he's only done those charts for Scrappers, Blasters, and Masterminds, none of which get Super Strength.

Umm yes of course I get that.  That's what all the talk is about is how manic depressive Rage is and how it is antithetical to Super Strength.  The set is unbalanced and so is it's unique power.  Did you not read above about how the Buff is ridiculous and the powers in the set suffer because Rage was broken and the fix didn't fix it it just broke it in a different way.

[Haijinx]

12 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

lol you should name yourself king of selective reading or quoting.  It points directly to it being as @Snarky called it manic depressive.  Rage is wildly unbalanced and inserting an extreme crash doesn't make it balanced.  It was just a lazy half A attempt at a fix. 

 

It's funny how many people defend bad design.  Is it just because it's the status quo?  Do they feel like people are attacking the Devs and they must heroically defend them?  

 

 

I am guilty of only commenting on points that interest me as well. 

 

From my perspective its because commenting on every single point someone may make in a long post is exhausting, I have no intention of debating every aspect of every topic, and others will talk about it if the point that didn't interest me at the time resonates.  Maybe then Ill have an interest, maybe I won't.

 

As to bad design?  Lol, this whole game swims in bad design decisions.  A lot of them are worse than Rage. 

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, America's Angel said:

 

There's a lot I'd change here. But, if DPS is your concern, then I'd suggest ditching Hurl picking Cross Punch (plus boxing to make Cross Punch hit harder), pick up Laser Beam Eyes (or switch to Soul epic for Gloom, or Mu Epic for Ball Lightning). Switch your alpha to Vigor (or possibly musculature w/the +recovery Ageless) and proc out your attacks. Put the Gaussian proc in Invincibility. Focus on more recharge bonuses. Etc.

lol so basically forget 6 of 9 powers in SS because they are crap and dip into power pools and Epics so you can have a good chain.   

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, FUBARczar said:

I wasn't just comparing 1 power (T5s).   Go ahead and compare the whole sets.  Even with SS's MASSIVE Damage buff (that everyone uses to justify a Hard Crash) is SS the king of sets? 2nd? 3rd?  No it isn't because the set isn't really balanced and Rage is stupid broken not just because of the antithetical-to-Super-Strength Crash but also because of it crazy buffs which allow for stupid things such as not slotting for accuracy.  Read above there are many ways in which the set is not balanced and Rage is stupid broken.

 

You were in the post I quoted.

 

And to clarify, putting a throwaway "and same goes for the other powers" isn't actually comparing anything.

 

In the post I was quoting, you were comparing tier 5 powers and I was commenting on how pointlessly useless that was.  Hope that clears things up.

[Snarky]

49 minutes ago, Vanden said:

I don't need Accuracy, Rage gives me oodles of +ToHit as well

Well, it did until you ran out of steam roflmao

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

 

I am guilty of only commenting on points that interest me as well. 

 

From my perspective its because commenting on every single point someone may make in a long post is exhausting, I have no intention of debating every aspect of every topic, and others will talk about it if the point that didn't interest me at the time resonates.  Maybe then Ill have an interest, maybe I won't.

 

As to bad design?  Lol, this whole game swims in bad design decisions.  A lot of them are worse than Rage. 

it wasn't about being selective of points of interest.  It was basically editing via selective quoting to basically take the quote out of context as the reply ignored the bigger picture of the post the quote was selected from.

 

And so because there are worse offenders than Rage in your opinion we should ignore Rage's unbalanced state?

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, FUBARczar said:

 

 

It's funny how many people defend bad design.  Is it just because it's the status quo?  Do they feel like people are attacking the Devs and they must heroically defend them?  

 

 

I'm not defending bad design, I'm dismantling crappy arguments.

[Vanden]

5 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

Umm yes of course I get that.  That's what all the talk is about is how manic depressive Rage is and how it is antithetical to Super Strength.  The set is unbalanced and so is it's unique power.  Did you not read above about how the Buff is ridiculous and the powers in the set suffer because Rage was broken and the fix didn't fix it it just broke it in a different way.

 

If you really get it, why do you keep bringing up all the aspects that make the set balanced among melee sets and concluding that they make it unbalanced?

[Haijinx]

2 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

Umm yes of course I get that.  That's what all the talk is about is how manic depressive Rage is and how it is antithetical to Super Strength.  The set is unbalanced and so is it's unique power.  Did you not read above about how the Buff is ridiculous and the powers in the set suffer because Rage was broken and the fix didn't fix it it just broke it in a different way.

When they designed those early sets, I don't think as much thought went into it as all that.

 

They wanted a set that didn't have build up but a long time buff, they decided it would go into SS for tankers.  

 

They wanted a long time refreshing dmg buff based on hitting people, they decided that should go into claws for Scrappers.

 

And so on.

[KelvinKole]

13 minutes ago, Vanden said:

 

 I don't think you understand. Rage is a stronger self-buff than any other set gets. But Super Strength is not a better set than every other set is, because the advantages Rage gives are made up for by disadvantages elsewhere. Thus, balance.

I think there’s a difference. Super strength is a widely undertuned set, made up for by Rage. Most other sets can skip this build up power all together and still function at a respectable level….SS without Rage would be terrible. By virtue of that, people who want to play the set for theme, style, fun, etc. have to take Rage and thereby have to deal with the crash, which is joy kill and neuters certain armor sets more than others. 
 

Mathematically, I’ll agree that SS is balanced fine. I’ve always maintained the problem is around the absolute reliance on a single power and the associated joy kill that comes with it. That’s why I thought the proposal to have only double stacked rage come with a crash was a great one. People who want to play the set for fun can, without double stacking it and having to deal with the crash. 

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Naraka said:

 

I'm not defending bad design, I'm dismantling crappy arguments.

no you selectively quote while not looking at the entire post and argue against things that were not said with the meaning in which you selectively frame them.

[Snarky]

6 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

 

There's a lot I'd change here. But, if DPS is your concern, then I'd suggest ditching Hurl, picking up Cross Punch (plus boxing to make Cross Punch hit harder), pick up Laser Beam Eyes (or switch to Soul epic for Gloom, or Mu Epic for Ball Lightning). Switch your alpha to Vigor (or possibly musculature w/the +recovery Ageless) and proc out your attacks. Put the Gaussian proc in Invincibility. Focus on more recharge bonuses. Etc.

It is a high Recharge build.  All those extra powers are 1) generally meh 2) requiring of enhancers i dont want to scrape off the build to try to shore up a mediocre attack.  

 

The thing is basically a 4 attack rotation with random stuff thrown in once in a while.  No need to overcomplicate that part of it at least.

 

To the topic at hand, I bring out my final argument.

 

"Rabbit Season!"

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

When they designed those early sets, I don't think as much thought went into it as all that.

 

They wanted a set that didn't have build up but a long time buff, they decided it would go into SS for tankers.  

 

They wanted a long time refreshing dmg buff based on hitting people, they decided that should go into claws for Scrappers.

 

And so on.

Yeah and it's a great option, just like the updated Targeting Drone for Blasters.  An alternate choice to build up.

[Haijinx]

2 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

it wasn't about being selective of points of interest.  It was basically editing via selective quoting to basically take the quote out of context as the reply ignored the bigger picture of the post the quote was selected from.

 

And so because there are worse offenders than Rage in your opinion we should ignore Rage's unbalanced state?

Yeah.  How defense works.  Hell the entire to hit/ to miss system is borked.