The Ultimate Debuffing Specialist

[00Troy00]

If I wanted to make the best debuffer possible for late-gamw content, what would I take?

 

If anyone has a build to share that would accomplish this it would be MUCH appreciated 

[nihilii]

Probably Poison/Sonic for Venomous Gas + Envenom + Weaken + sonic attacks.

 

Or Cold/Sonic for Sleet + HL + Benumb + sonic attacks.

 

Cold/Sonic can be a great burst debuffer with Burnout, as those three debuffs are long recharge clicks, so recharging them instantly doubles your potential there.

And Cold gets universally liked +defense shields, a defense aura with energy resistance and slow resistance, and tremendous endurance efficiency.

It's hard to top Cold overall.

[SeraphimKensai]

I really like either Poison, Trick Arrow, Dark Miasma, or Radiation as a primary. As stated before Cold does decent as well. Secondary you'd want Sonic especially if your teaming 80% quite a bit (on its own sonic does kinda mediocre damage, but it's helped by your Debuffs, solo you can pair with a more damaging secondary to great effect). Even Rad blast with some -res can do pretty good.

 

Poison does it's job best when you have multiple targets in melee as you alternate your target for your envenom and weaken Debuffs while they are in venomous gas.

 

Trick Arrow is a jack of all trades debuffing set that actually is pretty strong after the pass it received and does decent damage especially when proc'd.

 

Dark has great -regen and -tohit, even some -resist, a built in cloak, and a pet that helps debuff things more.

 

Back on live I used to love making debuffers, and I still have maybe 15-20 of them as incarnates now but with the emphasis on damage, things die quick enough that debuffers really don't get to shine much although they are still useful.

 

[Bopper]

It depends on what you want to debuff. The best sets will include:

 

Dark: Fantastic in ToHit and Damage debuffs while being very good in resistance and regeneration debuffs. It also does a little bit of recharge debuffs.

 

Cold: Fantastic in Defense, Recharge, Resistance and ST Damage debuffs while being decent at ST Regen debuffs.

 

Trick Arrow is very good at everything while being fantastic at ToHit debuffs.

 

Poison is good - very good at everything. Nice thing with poison, it's best debuffs come in very few powers.

 

Radiation Emission is good at everything while being fantastic at Regen debuffs.

 

Storm is fantastic at Resistance, Recharge and Defense debuffs while very good at ToHit debuffs. But it does nothing else.

 

Traps is fantastic at Regen and Damage debuffs (AoE) but just decent at everything else.

 

 

 

[Parabola]

All the above info is solid. It's also worth mentioning that while there is a lot of overlap in the debuffs being applied by the various sets, they often go about applying those debuffs differently.

 

Rad for example delivers its debuffs in two toggles and a click. The toggles have longish cast times and hefty endurance costs but once applied leave you free to do other things, but only if you don't get mezzed. A set like cold is all clicks, this has the advantage that they don't drop if you get mezzed but recasting eats into your time. Poison has a decent chunk of its debuff in a self cast toggle, this is potentially up all the time without having to even choose a target but again mez can drop it.

 

So there are things to consider about how each set plays and how that works for you beyond the raw debuff types. Best advice is to play a few and get a feel for what you like.

[00Troy00]

Thanks so much for all of the feedback!

[JayboH]

I'd put Trick Arrow/Radiation Emission/Dark Miasma at the top probably.

 

Poison isn't great at everything, it needs some dev attention - going by raw numbers it's great but in practice it's difficult to maximize due to several things: the time it takes to dump your payload, the way the AOE works is weird because the original design meant for you to spam different targets with them so that the weaker debuffs on the outside of the target would get layered with the primary and secondary values - oh and also you are expected to get within melee range for Venomous even though the set doesn't let you heal yourself or give yourself any buffs whatsoever to survive.  The heal takes really long to affect your target depending on the situation, etc.

 

Cold is a mix, it could use just a couple tweaks but it's good.

 

Traps is really great on a mastermind specifically, and it's tier 9 could be reworked more if you ask me.  Better set than some realize as a whole though, specifically Acid Mortar, Force Field Generator.  Triage should be reworked too.

[Ankhammon]

Never forgot some of the debuff potential in blast sets like Psy. The 100% -rech that you can throw on full groups with just Psy Scream and Psi Tornado is really underappreciated. Throw in a Psy Wail and the baddies are gonna need some time to get their powers back.

[DreadShinobi]

While there is good information in this thread regarding suggestions for generalist debuffers, the OP specifically asked for late-game debuffer recommendations. 

 

-Tohit and -rchg lose more and more value at endgame when all or most of your team has softcapped defenses. -regen loses value as dps increases, it is still helpful, but if the AV is getting shutdown in 15 seconds, the -regen didnt do much. -DMG retains value, especially vs hard targets. -res and how quickly and consistently you can apply is the typically sought after debuff for endgame.

 

Poison applies -65% res at base. Envenom is a very fast cast and can be applied to every spawn no matter how fast you are steamrolling. Weaken is valuable vs AVs but otherwise doesnt need to be cast due to the longer animation and less relevant debuff. VG is the key here being a toggle, meaning after you envenom you can start blasting away. Poison Trap is also a 1 second cast time and can add another -20% res with fury of the gladiator. Set also has Achilles heel access capping at -105% potential res debuff (this can be applied in 2.5 seconds). Poison's weaker point is lower -regen values compared to similar sets. Its advantage is speed of application of the most valuable type of debuff. At endgame poison will have easily plugged the self-survivability hole with IO sets. @JayboH - not quite on point here.

 

Radiation has some good debuffs but other than better -regen and a self heal, Poison outclasses it heavily.

 

Dark Miasma primary advantage is some stellar -dmg. Good -regen on HT, but long cooldown. -tohit value falls off in relevancy. Cast times become more noticeably problematic as team damage increases at endgame. Kinetics is often a more relevant fit on a team with fulcrum shift and speed boost and can also gut an AVs dmg output similarly to dark.

 

Cold Domination is a powerhouse, see Nihili's post.

 

Storm Summoning is good at -res debuffing, but not as good as Cold. It lacks the -regen that cold has, and the infinite blue bar that cold has. The tradeoff is Tornado and Lightning Storm that makes a large difference in your personal damage output as a defender.

 

Sonic Resonance may seem underwhelming, but it does all the right things at endgame, bolstering softcapped defenses with +res buffing, and consistent -60% res debuff. Against AV spam tasks like ms. tf, rsf, or trials it does quite well. It can also shutdown lord recluse towers with sonic cage.

 

 

Endgame debuffing = how much -res do you have and how much damage can you amplify with it.

 

 

[JayboH]

To think most endgame content tends to be entire teams being softcapped is a big no-no.  I find that extremely hard to believe - maybe if itrials have tons of maneuvers or teams have some cold or ff defenders around perhaps but softcap is unlikely the norm, especially to all damage types or to all positions for every single player.  I'd have to hear that from the devs themselves, otherwise there is no way.  ...thus -tohit is still valuable if in decent enough quantity.

 

AVs going down in 15 seconds doesn't always seem the norm either, plus regen ticks are faster than 15 seconds anyway, so -regen/heal is quite valuable.  I never did hear if anyone confirmed if Reactive always beats Degenerative in farming or not (-maxhp which is different but it affects regen ticks.)

 

Envenom is designed to be layered currently, needing two targets to maximize.  You hit one target and they get -40% res, and a small area around that target (8 ft) gets only -20% resistance debuff.  Then you are supposed to hit the 2nd target who then gets -40% and the secondary hits the first target for the weaker splash of -20%, 2 power applications within 30 seconds if you want full strength from Envenom.  Weaken is the exact same story.  Venomous Gas requires you to be in melee range and melee tends to be higher incoming damage.  Poison Trap takes an extra half second to activate after the 1 second placement time which also tends to make the player run into melee range, unless you want to pull mobs but I don't see that very often anymore.

 

Which holes are expected to be covered by your typical Poison defender?  Surely not all of them, if that's even possible @DreadShinobi.

 

EDIT:  altered for defender values

 

Edited July 11, 2021 by JayboH

[DreadShinobi]

Envenom is -40% on primary target, not -30%. If you layer you get to -60% from envenom but I've hardly found that as a necessary part of the design or needed to make the values competitive. Poison can get to -105 without any envenom layering. After initial application of Envenom, applying actual damage is more valuable, unless target is an AV and a minion is standing next to it. 

 

If I put a pug call in lfg for an apex/tin mage/rsf/ms lib it is rare that more than 1 person is not IO decked. Not all of my characters are softcapped either but those that aren't don't need it to function just fine, and would rather have a +def shield from a cold domination or a maneuver stack than a tohit debuff any day of the week.

 

My Psn/Fire defender has 28.5% melee, 42.9% ranged, and 25.4% aoe def with mind over body - 75% S/L res and 42.4% psionic. The ranged defense can be covered by an amplifier or a single ally in range with maneuvers. It is built to 295% base regen, which nets 1007 hp every 60 seconds. I have no trouble diving in melee and taking alpha strikes. Regen slotting is highly undervalued. 

[JayboH]

3 hours ago, DreadShinobi said:

Envenom is -40% on primary target, not -30%. If you layer you get to -60% from envenom but I've hardly found that as a necessary part of the design or needed to make the values competitive. Poison can get to -105 without any envenom layering. After initial application of Envenom, applying actual damage is more valuable, unless target is an AV and a minion is standing next to it. 

 

If I put a pug call in lfg for an apex/tin mage/rsf/ms lib it is rare that more than 1 person is not IO decked. Not all of my characters are softcapped either but those that aren't don't need it to function just fine, and would rather have a +def shield from a cold domination or a maneuver stack than a tohit debuff any day of the week.

 

My Psn/Fire defender has 28.5% melee, 42.9% ranged, and 25.4% aoe def with mind over body - 75% S/L res and 42.4% psionic. The ranged defense can be covered by an amplifier or a single ally in range with maneuvers. It is built to 295% base regen, which nets 1007 hp every 60 seconds. I have no trouble diving in melee and taking alpha strikes. Regen slotting is highly undervalued. 

I was messing with corruptors, I've edited it thanks.

 

Yes, applying actual damage is part of my argument - I said 'the time it takes to dump your payload.'

 

+def and -tohit:  the -tohit can be more powerful.  +def has many types, and most have holes.  -tohit is to all positions and all damage types in a sense.  -tohit can be resisted, but +def can be debuffed, and there is a lot of -def in this game.  Many ATs in this game have no access to defense debuff resistance either.

 

I assume regen slotting is undervalued because it takes so much of it to be noticeable.

 

Can you post your build?

 

 

[Ankhammon]

For those who are just concerned with just things that are not as countered by purple patches and the like:

 

You can go with something like a Sonic/Sonic/Any. the -Res values on that can easily be placed near 100% or over with a single target cage (if you wanna consider it a debuff like against LRSF), a mighty -def/-tohit patch (on a long rechage) that can be very nice against hard to hit targets and the rings to make you and your team very hard to kill. 

Granted the last part isn't a debuff, but a buff. Overall the package makes tank mages out of the whole team.

Side note of awesome, since your team will be hit for little amounts of damage regularly, you get a huge debuff to your own end cost meaning you can keep applying the lovely -res without ever slowing down. This build is a breeze in teams from like level 12 on. 

 

Or you could go with Naff/DP/Psi. Huge amounts of -damage with your poison laced bullets and spore cloud and the tier 1 single target spore shooter (at work and no access to mids). The numbers can go near 100% on a single target or over 50% on groups. 

And yes, this set has lots of buffs (end discount, +Dam, lots of dots of healing) and some control too (half power pbaoe hold and some single target hold). 

This combo also grants a very large pbaoe damage potential with their bullets and proc'ing out the two pbaoe's you get (entangle and WoC). 

Side note of sadness, this build takes a very long time to get going since you will need incredible amounts of recharge to get your tier 9 near perma allowing all the rest. So this build, while very nice, is almost a done with end game build. 

 

I know the thread started out as end game debuffer but looking at just one aspect in this game can get your build out of whack. Here are two builds who can both do a lot of debuffing but ignoring what else they can do and the requirements of getting them there can lead to a frustrating character.

 

 

Besides, most debuffers don't get the good effects so the team never notices them and they never get any accolades. 🙂

 

[DreadShinobi]

7 hours ago, JayboH said:

Can you post your build?

Envenom is still a 1.33s (pre-arcana) cast time and because of the projectile speed/aggro timing you can often lead with this (with proper defenses) jousting in as you cast envenom and landing simultaneously debuffing the group with venomous gas, proceeding with a fireball or other aoe as aggro happens to fully debuffed mobs. I also like the ranged envenom>fire breath joust into melee range, venomous gas debuffs the enemy spawn before the 2nd tick of fire breath > then fireball. Great AoE dmg for a defender.

 

Poison is a set that I didn't care for much on live, but it has become one of my favorite sets to play on homecoming because of certain adjustments to the general endgame meta. On live I had a massive preference towards cold domination because I felt the defensive shielding was more valuable at that time. On homecoming, the average player has much more accessibility to full IO builds, and it is noticeable enough to push poison up a peg in comparison to cold domination in what I have experienced. The general faster pace of homecoming (particularly looking at PuG endgame content) goes hand in hand with everything that poison does well and highlights itself as an excellent set. I believe @Frosticus in his writing on the set has also contributed to this awareness. 

 

I play 3 poison characters. Started with a psn/rad defender and also made a psn/fire defender and a plant/psn controller. The radiation blast defender uses Cosmic Burst stun+Oppressive gloom for an extremely safe approach to playing a poisoneer and also has alkaloid in the build for more defensive team support. The plant/psn is just crazy effective due to the interaction between heavy resist debuffs, proc damage, and confusion based damage. The psn/fire defender is overall one of my favorite characters to play because the damage is so far above what one would normally expect from a defender and the full aggressive approach is a lot of fun for me. The psn/fire plays like a blaster with a very intense force multiplier for yourself and everyone around you. For all 3 simply having access to rez+veng, with the rez also being a +50% dmg, +100% rchg, +200% recovery steroid for 90 seconds, means even playing the character full offense like a blaster, only needing to cast Envenom, you still turn around any untimely faceplant and just keep going. 

 

I can post my poison/fire defender, feel free to msg me if interested in the other two builds, happy to share. What works for me is adapted to what works well for my playstyle, you might not agree with all build choices, but maybe you will see some interesting ideas.

 

Edit: also just wanted to add that I do not use Clarion, Rebirth, or Barrier on any of my poison characters (incan wins my destiny slot choice always) and so all my builds are built without reliance on a defensive destiny slot choice.

 

 

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.1.25
https://github.com/Crytilis/mids-reborn-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Defender
Primary Power Set: Poison
Secondary Power Set: Fire Blast
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Psychic Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Envenom -- Acc-I(A), AchHee-ResDeb%(9)
Level 1: Flares -- SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg(A), SprVglAss-Rchg/+Absorb(3), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(3)
Level 2: Weaken -- CldSns-ToHitDeb(A), CldSns-Acc/ToHitDeb(13), CldSns-Acc/Rchg(13), CldSns-ToHitDeb/EndRdx/Rchg(40), CldSns-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(43), CldSns-%Dam(46)
Level 4: Fire Ball -- Rgn-Knock%(A), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(5), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(5), Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(7), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(7)
Level 6: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 8: Super Speed -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A), BlsoftheZ-Travel/EndRdx(9)
Level 10: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Rct-ResDam%(11), LucoftheG-Def(39)
Level 12: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 14: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 16: Fire Breath -- PstBls-Dam%(A), PstBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(19), PstBls-Dmg/Rng(19), PstBls-Acc/Dmg(21), PstBls-Dmg/EndRdx(23), Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(37)
Level 18: Tough -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), ImpSki-Status(40)
Level 20: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(21), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(46), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(50)
Level 22: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(23)
Level 24: Tactics -- GssSynFr--Build%(A), GssSynFr--ToHit/EndRdx(25), GssSynFr--ToHit(25), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg(34), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(34), GssSynFr--Rchg/EndRdx(34)
Level 26: Poison Trap -- Arm-Dam%(A), Obl-%Dam(27), Erd-%Dam(27), ScrDrv-Dam%(33), FuroftheG-ResDeb%(33), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(33)
Level 28: Blaze -- SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg(A), SprDfnBst-Dmg/Rchg(29), SprDfnBst-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(29), SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(31), SprDfnBst-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), SprDfnBst-Rchg/Heal%(31)
Level 30: Elixir of Life -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A)
Level 32: Venomous Gas -- HO:Enzym(A)
Level 35: Blazing Bolt -- StnoftheM-Dam%(A), StnoftheM-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36), StnoftheM-Acc/Dmg(36), StnoftheM-Dmg/EndRdx(36), StnoftheM-Acc/ActRdx/Rng(37), GldJvl-Dam%(46)
Level 38: Inferno -- SprVglAss-Dmg/Rchg(A), SprVglAss-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39), SprVglAss-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40)
Level 41: Dominate -- UnbCns-Dam%(A), NrnSht-Dam%(42), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(42), GldNet-Dam%(42), GldJvl-Dam%(43), Apc-Dam%(43)
Level 44: Mind Over Body -- UnbGrd-Max HP%(A), UnbGrd-ResDam(45), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(45), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(45)
Level 47: World of Confusion -- CrcPrs-Conf(A), CrcPrs-Conf/Rchg(48), CrcPrs-Conf/EndRdx(48), CrcPrs-Acc/Conf/Rchg(48), CrcPrs-Acc/Rchg(50), CrcPrs-Conf%(50)
Level 49: Vengeance -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Quick Form 
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- HO:Micro(A)
Level 1: Vigilance 
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrc-Rcvry+(A), Pnc-Heal/+End(11), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(15), Prv-Absorb%(17), NmnCnv-Heal(17), RgnTss-Regen+(37)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(15), PrfShf-EndMod/Acc(39)
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion 
Level 0: Task Force Commander 
Level 0: Portal Jockey 
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve 
Level 50: Cardiac Core Paragon 
------------

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|-------------------------------------------------------------------|

Edited July 12, 2021 by DreadShinobi

[JayboH]

Nice, looks good.  Still hope to see a revamp of the set.

[Psylenz0511]

On 7/10/2021 at 10:17 PM, DreadShinobi said:

<snip> ...

 

Sonic Resonance may seem underwhelming, but it does all the right things at endgame, bolstering softcapped defenses with +res buffing, and consistent -60% res debuff. Against AV spam tasks like ms. tf, rsf, or trials it does quite well. It can also shutdown lord recluse towers with sonic cage.

 

...

 

 

I have been informed by in-game friends that the sonic and forcefield cages no longer are able to shut down lord recluse's towers; that is all. Another 'fix' that breaks legacy strategy techniques.

[PLVRIZR]

On 7/5/2021 at 9:03 AM, Bopper said:

Radiation Emission is good at everything while being fantastic at Regen debuffs.

 

 

Amen.  I bring "The Atomic Warden", to all AV killing parties 🙂