Confusion and it’s unique cost

[Natti]

I do like the level of impact that buff’s and debuff’s have in this game. Yet I do have a suggestion in the form of a question, as it relates to the cost of using a Confusion debuff.

 

Of the 8 control lines 5 have confusion in them and all have it available in the Epic’s.

 

Yet confusion alone takes away the carrot. Not just for the caster but the entire team loses Exp, loot, and basically the reason anyone is in the mission in the first place. The targets can be held motionless, no problem. They can be dazed and hobbling around mindlessly, cowering in fear, or flopping like fish on land.  Basically they can be under the effect of any other power to which I am aware in the entire game and the Team does not loose their reason for being in the mission, save for confuse.

 

Any chance the time has come to stop taking the carrot from a single power, or remove confusion from the game entirely?

[Parabola]

If a confused enemy defeats another without any other damage being dealt you get no xp for the kill. But if you do even a sliver of damage you (or the team) get rewards. My understanding is that the distribution is rather generous so if you do 10% damage you get a lot more than 10% rewards. And the confused enemies are upping the kill speed by harming each other. Way back on live clever people did all the maths and proved confuse powers are a net gain to xp and drops.

[JayboH]

Agreed, it's worth the tradeoff in my opinion as well

[Natti]

If it was called Charm instead of Confuse, would any mind the temporary pet damage being counted with you rather than against?

[Parabola]

58 minutes ago, Natti said:

If it was called Charm instead of Confuse, would any mind the temporary pet damage being counted with you rather than against?

I'm not sure why a name change would affect anything here? But the bigger issue is that the damage that confused critters do isn't counted against you or your team, this is a misconception. The only limitation on your ability to gain xp and drops is time, there are an infinite number of enemies. Therefore anything that helps chew through mobs quicker is a benefit, even if each mob is worth slighly less xp. As I said before we gain far more in kill rate than we lose from mobs damaging each other by using confuse powers. This has been proven but the perception that confuses are in some way detrimental seems hard to shift.

[ninja surprise]

This discussion comes up somewhat frequently. Back on live the people really good with math and stats ran the numbers on running with Confusion vs No Confusion.

If you let a confused mob entirely defeat another mob without you doing any damage, then you lose the reward.

HOWEVER, as long as you are doing any damage at all to a spawn, Confusion increases your overall speed to defeat and rewards earned. You don't have to spend as much endurance or time attacking to defeat a spawn but still get rewarded for defeats with drops, exp, and inf (unless you've disabled them of course). And the mission completion XP bonus is the biggest reward. With mass confusion you can complete missions quicker and get more of those fat bonuses. Plus your team can handle bigger spawns at higher difficulty for bigger rewards.

 

Confusion is good for a team, if you can believe it.

[Xing]

I never knew that you get full rewards for partial damage. Thank you for changing my mind about Confusion. This opens up new possibilities I previously considered worthless. 

[oedipus_tex]

The power description text for Confuse powers does make a big deal about this, but the other posters are correct. You lose very little from Confusion powers unless you let the enemies entirely defeat each other. If you even tap them I believe you have a full chance for an inspiration, which by itself can turn things in your favor. 

[Riverdusk]

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Confuse_(Status_Effect)

 

As others have stated it is a sliding scale (see the chart in the link, pink line).  It is very much worth it.  Especially since there is always another mob in this game 50 feet away, it isn't like the spawn rates are so low that teams spend any significant amount of time hunting for things to kill.  Confuse generally speeds up kill rate enough to more than offset any minor xp/reward penalty.

 

Confuse doesn't take away the carrot, it makes it slightly smaller, but also much faster to eat and you get more carrots quicker.

 

 

[Player2]

I dislike confusion and the controversy its use in teams creates, so I watch controllers and if they confuse any enemies, those enemies become my primary target.  Don't confuse it unless you want me to kill it first.

 

[Greycat]

2 hours ago, Player2 said:

I dislike confusion and the controversy its use in teams creates, so I watch controllers and if they confuse any enemies, those enemies become my primary target.  Don't confuse it unless you want me to kill it first.

 

 

Sounds like a good way to get kicked off teams, if noticed.  Better rule to follow - "Don't be a dick."

 

If I'm confusing something that would buff the other side, typically I'd rather have it buff *me.*  If you're killing that first, as far as I'm concerned, you're working to actively harm the team.

[Player2]

2 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

Sounds like a good way to get kicked off teams, if noticed.  Better rule to follow - "Don't be a dick."

 

If I'm confusing something that would buff the other side, typically I'd rather have it buff *me.*  If you're killing that first, as far as I'm concerned, you're working to actively harm the team.

I'm not a good person.  But, you know...  my behavior has been shaped by interacting with others, including my fellow COHers, so...

[Riverdusk]

On 7/8/2021 at 2:30 AM, Player2 said:

I dislike confusion and the controversy its use in teams creates, so I watch controllers and if they confuse any enemies, those enemies become my primary target.  Don't confuse it unless you want me to kill it first.

 

 

 Not sure how that works out with a plant controller though that tend to confuse the entire mob. 😁

 

But honestly I have no issue with that.   The buffs confused mobs give (if any) tend to be insignificant to most teams.  I'm more interested when confusing things like force field gens or tsoo sorcs is just to make sure people can hit them.  Or things like sappers that so many melees are so darn scared of, can't hurt anyone.

 

[Koopak]

Id also note the reason for the penalty if you dont do damage to the mobs is thinks like the other night where I had a Dominator save a 3 man recluse TF by perma confusing Yin who easly murdered the rest of the Phalanx. Hell our first pull we didnt target Positron and he just fuckin died next to me.

 

Put simply the penalty is there solely so you don't let them do ALL the fighting. As others have said, lobg as you are doing damage the net result is a positive

[Mezmera]

Like others are saying, the cost/benefit analysis of using confuse powers favors using confuse by far over the minimal amount of xp lost.  If you're doing it right you should be dropping confuses along with your aoe damage.  Heck I have Mass Confusion slotted with malaise with the dmg proc.  If you see things confused just help the confused smash the area around you.  

 

I do use my ST confuse too to help make engagements easier for the br00ts.  Things like DE that drop those location buffs, if you'd rather I not confuse the resistance buff that's fine, not smart if I'm able to help in that way, but sure think what you may.  Confusing the enemies helpers does two things, it instantly takes that away from them so you're not having to grind through enemies with 3 resistance buffing powers, then it also adds this buff to you. 

 

There's so many things I'll confuse that the enemies use on us which switches it to our favor.  Carnies' dark pet is a nasty little thing, plus if Carnies are confused when they die the area of effect endurance drains they spawn will have no effect on my team.  

 

So go ahead and kill the enemies buff that you're getting @Player2.  I'd rather you do what you're there to do and kill stuff around you and let those familiar with how good their powers are do their thing to help you kill stuff faster.  

 

Yes don't just confuse everything and leave them be, at least toss an aoe at them that way you're getting more benefit from spending much less time on that group with minimal loss of xp.