Sapper Build?

[CFIndustries]

I had a Kin/Elec defender ("offender") on Live who I built around the idea of incapacitating enemies via "stamineutering." Since there didn't seem to be a way to maximize this idea with IOs, it was done with SOs at the time.

 

Granted the meta game has changed alot, but the fact that I could neuter a Warwalker in short order was fairly impressive at the time...if a very dangerous playstyle. 😜  But that same idea might not be viable now (barely was back then).

 

With that in mind, I wonder if this concept is viable these days, and what AT, powersets, and build would best accomplish this goal? This is a concept alt I can play on a team which is forgiving of odd builds (and doesn't play +4/x8), so I'm okay with maximizing end drain at the expense of other attributes. It's more about pushing the game mechanics in a different or odd way; I find this sort of thing fun. 🙂

 

EDIT: Should try to be reasonably effective before 50, as I don't powerlevel/farm and have to live with the build the long, slow way.

Edited July 8, 2021 by CFIndustries

[Psyonico]

You might want to consider an Elec/Elec controller, Conductive Aura does a good job at sapping enemies and Galvanic Sentinel and Shock are good at keeping them drained.

[Panache]

Electricity in some form (Control or Blast) is usually your best bet, as well as Psi Assault for Doms.

 

My personal favorite sapper build to play, though not the fastest or best way to sap, is an Elec/Energy Sent. Good sapping between Short Circuit and…whatever the Sentinel version of Energy Drain is called, good survivability and QoL with Energy Aura, Elec Blast does decent damage with Sents, and you can proc out your blasts with that Heal proc to get more consistent healing.

 

edit to add: sapping is a fun kind of mini-game that I personally enjoy, but I also embarked on that play style with my eyes wide open; ie, it’s a wildly inefficient playstyle, min-max/meta wise, and the mechanic isn’t super reliable (mobs only need 1 end to fire off their best attacks); on teams, things are usually dead before they’re drained; just managing expectations! (And again, I’m a sapping fan)

Edited July 8, 2021 by Panache

[Techwright]

1 hour ago, Panache said:

edit to add: sapping is a fun kind of mini-game that I personally enjoy, but I also embarked on that play style with my eyes wide open; ie, it’s a wildly inefficient playstyle, min-max/meta wise, and the mechanic isn’t super reliable (mobs only need 1 end to fire off their best attacks); on teams, things are usually dead before they’re drained; just managing expectations! (And again, I’m a sapping fan)

 

Not to derail the main point of the thread, but your comment interests me in the light of playing my elect/elect controller recently.  While I thought slotting him for a balance of damage and end drain was a good thing, I've noticed that even with the enemy drained, they still manage to put up a decent fight.  Reading your comments now, I wonder if it best to just focus on damage?  OP's desire for a sapper aside, of course.

[Panache]

1 hour ago, Techwright said:

 

Not to derail the main point of the thread, but your comment interests me in the light of playing my elect/elect controller recently.  While I thought slotting him for a balance of damage and end drain was a good thing, I've noticed that even with the enemy drained, they still manage to put up a decent fight.  Reading your comments now, I wonder if it best to just focus on damage?  OP's desire for a sapper aside, of course.

End drain can be a tough beat, mostly because of that whole “this mob has a 1000 damage attack that costs 1 end” thing. There’s also two components to a dapper build; -End and -Rec. Neither by itself is enough to keep a mob drained.

 

All that said: there’s a case to be made for attrition-based sapping. In other words, survival+sapping rather than damage+sapping. If you live got a build that consistently saps (End and Rec) that can survive a few salvos of shots, you can kill big game. Boomie had a thread on the old boards of all the GMs he killed with an Elec/Cold.

[Doomguide2005]

     One of the big issues a sapper build faces is the size of the foes endurance pools.  That's why it so often seems why the baddies get to attack with basically no end cost.  Everyone, players and mobs alike, gain a percentage of the end back with each tic of recovery.  Player has 100 end.  Bosses iirc get 200 end and a late game AV has 800.  Powers themselves pretty much have the same end cost.  Your Smite and Nosferatu's Smite both cost the same in endurance.  But if as a player you gain 5 end the AV gets 40.  Then answer how many of your powers can you use with 5 end?  And how many can Nosferatu use with 40 end.  And that's why it seems AVs can attack with pretty much anything even after fully drained.  They get one tic of recovery and have enough end for pretty much everything.

     That's why it's so important to also hit them with lots of -recovery and not just -endurance.  Recovery determines how often those tics occur.

    So first you need to remove all their endurance then second shut off their recovery.  And ideally you need to do both very rapidly to make it worthwhile as a form of mitigation.  Otherwise the Fire/Fire blaster mitigates them by turning them into ash faster than you drain them.  

    And Electric/Cold sounds potent in terms of sapping to mitigate and solo big stuff.  Has the sapping side covered than adds lots of -recharge/slows with Cold along with all of Cold's potent debuffs like Benumb

[nihilii]

Are sapping builds still worth it? I'd say yes.

 

Elec Blast on Sentinels in particular is worth a look. It kept the same end draining properties as traditional Elec Blast, but Sentinel nukes recharge in 90s. That's twice as fast as the original Thunderous Blast.

 

Couple that with nukes being crashless, and you've got your best endurance draining tool right there, up for every mob group.

 

Tesla Cage was also buffed on Sentinels to deal high damage. So it's worth including in an attack chain, and comes with its -100% recovery too.

 

My Elec/Bio Sentinel, built for damage, with not a single endurance mod slot, frequently drains War Walkers. I don't even have Short Circuit either.

 

Truly, one does not have to sacrifice damage. As Doomguide points out, shutting down recovery is key - and that isn't enhanced by endmods, anyway.

[oedipus_tex]

My "main" is a Elec/Psi Dominator, who is a sapper. I recently specced out of the Mu pool to add more defense because I was getting caked while fighting Arachnos, which meant losing Power Sink (which is great against Elite Bosses).

 

Altho other Dominator secondaries provide Power Boost, which can help with sapping faster, I stuck with /Psi because Drain Psyche makes it more feasible to stand in melee range without dying. 

 

Damage is so-so. Pretty effective in midling difficult content. Can really suffer in some extreme difficult settings in the AE (but what doesn't?)

 

 

Note Mids hasn't been updated to reflect new Stealth numbers. Ranged defense should be at around 39.something in game. It's capped as long as Destiny Barrier is still active.

 

 

 

This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.0.4.7
https://github.com/Reborn-Team/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Dominator
Primary Power Set: Electric Control
Secondary Power Set: Psionic Assault
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Concealment
Power Pool: Teleportation
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Psionic Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Tesla Cage -- BslGaz-Acc/Hold(A), BslGaz-Acc/Rchg(3), BslGaz-Rchg/Hold(3), BslGaz-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(5)
Level 1: Psionic Dart -- SprWntBit-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(A), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg(5), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(7), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(7), SprWntBit-Dmg/Rchg(9)
Level 2: Chain Fences -- PwrTrns-EndMod(A), PwrTrns-Dam/Rech(9), PwrTrns-Dam/EndMod(11), PwrTrns-Dam/Acc/End(11), PwrTrns-Dam/Acc/Rech/End(13), PwrTrns-+Heal(13)
Level 4: Mind Probe -- SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc(A), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(15), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(15), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(17), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(17)
Level 6: Telekinetic Thrust -- KntCmb-Acc/Dmg(A), KntCmb-Dmg/EndRdx(19), KntCmb-Dmg/Rchg(19), KntCmb-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(21), OvrFrc-Dam/KB(21)
Level 8: Conductive Aura -- SynSck-EndMod(A), SynSck-Dam/Rech/Acc(39), SynSck-EndMod/+RunSpeed(46)
Level 10: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(23)
Level 12: Static Field -- SprAscoft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear(A), SprAscoft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx/Rchg(23), SprAscoft-Rchg/+Dmg%(25), SprAscoft-EndRdx/Rchg(25), SprAscoft-Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/Rchg(27), SprAscoft-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx(27)
Level 14: Stealth -- Ksm-ToHit+(A), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(29), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(33), Rct-ResDam%(34)
Level 16: Teleport Target -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A)
Level 18: Paralyzing Blast -- BslGaz-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(A), BslGaz-Acc/Rchg(29), BslGaz-Rchg/Hold(31), BslGaz-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(31)
Level 20: Drain Psyche -- TchoftheN-Heal/HP/Regen/Rchg(A), EffAdp-Acc/Rchg(31), DctWnd-Heal/Rchg(33), TchoftheN-Acc/Heal(33)
Level 22: Combat Teleport -- WntGif-ResSlow(A)
Level 24: Fold Space -- Acc-I(A)
Level 26: Synaptic Overload -- CrcPrs-Conf(A), CrcPrs-Conf/Rchg(34), CrcPrs-Acc/Conf/Rchg(34), CrcPrs-Acc/Rchg(36), CrcPrs-Conf/EndRdx(36), CrcPrs-Conf%(36)
Level 28: Boxing -- KntCmb-Acc/Dmg(A), KntCmb-Dmg/EndRdx(37), KntCmb-Dmg/Rchg(37), KntCmb-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37)
Level 30: Tough -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(50)
Level 32: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(46)
Level 35: Psionic Lance -- StnoftheM-Dam%(A), StnoftheM-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39), StnoftheM-Acc/Dmg(39), StnoftheM-Dmg/EndRdx(40), StnoftheM-Dmg/ActRdx/Rchg(40), GldJvl-Dam%(40)
Level 38: Psychic Shockwave -- Obl-%Dam(A), Obl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(42), Obl-Dmg(42), Obl-Acc/Rchg(42), Obl-Dmg/Rchg(43), Obl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43)
Level 41: Link Minds -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(43), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg(45)
Level 44: Mind Over Body -- UnbGrd-Max HP%(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(45), UnbGrd-ResDam(45), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(46)
Level 47: Psionic Tornado -- FrcFdb-Rechg%(A), Rgn-Knock%(48), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(48), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(48), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(50), Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(50)
Level 49: Indomitable Will -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 1: Domination 
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrc-Rcvry+(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A)
Level 49: Quick Form 
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 50: Musculature Radial Paragon 
------------

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Edited July 9, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Carnifax]

My "sapper" is an Elec/Poison. The nice thing is that sapping is just one layer of his control. Poisons Poison Trap is a decent sapping tool too. 

[TwoEyeBlack]

I do not have a dedicated "sapper" (I tried with an elec Melee and it failed horribly, no need to tell me it was a wasted effort), however...  If you get a team together and 3 or more have sapping powers, it is quite fun to just steamroll through everything because almost everything has an empty end bar.  This is especially true in an ITF where the damn cyclopes cannot go into MOG (or whatever the heck they do) and die MUCH faster.  Also, there is something really satisfying in seeing an AV just stand there because they have no End to do anything... 

[Heraclea]

I had an elec/elec blaster I built this way, imitating a character on live.  The issue I had weas that it isn't enough to take mobs' endurance away; you have to keep them at zero. 

[Nemu]

Elec/Energy blaster is better suited for AoE drain. You want to drain quickly and powerboost + Short Circuit ramps that up quite a bit compared to other options, this is less prone to disruption as well because you can activate power boost prior to engaging mobs. Elec/Elec blasters can potentially drain faster with powersink and SC but powersink has a much smaller radius than SC and you'll be lucky to tag 5 mobs near you. 

 

Vs Single targets Elec/Elec has an edge since every attack drains and you have access to more attacks that have -recovery. /Elec has other tools for mitigation and those can also be used to buy you time to drain mobs around you.

 

Both are good, I prefer elec/energy as a pure all purpose sapper however. Both can do +4/8, Elec/Energy can get mitigation through sapping alone, and Elec/Elec will use it's bag of tools in addition to sapping for mitigation.

[Replacement]

20 hours ago, Panache said:

 (mobs only need 1 end to fire off their best attacks)

 

17 hours ago, Panache said:

mostly because of that whole “this mob has a 1000 damage attack that costs 1 end” thing. 

As Doomguide said, this actually is not the case.

 

Mobs tend to have very large endurance pools, but otherwise follow PC rules - namely, end recovery is a percentage per tick.  They queue a power like we do, and so the very moment the server grants them a tick (representing a massive chunk of End), a portion is spent on the queued attack.

 

I haven't looked into it, but I bet their Brawl is free. But reducing them to Brawl is a feat is a worthwhile outcome as well.

 

Once they've been floored, -recovery is the most way to prevent them from acting.

 

Sapping needs work, and there are lots of ways it needs help, but it is actually quite effective with the right build.  I've found any two toons bearing a single elec set each to be enough to justify a change in strategy across a broad range of content.

[oedipus_tex]

One thing I've learned is that Fold Space is a Sappers friend. Whether you go with Electric Control or Electric Blast, both of them are somewhat PBAoE based. Hats off to the Homecoming team for creating this power.

 

In the case of Electric Control it's especially useful because you want to be spamming the immobilize, which obviously freezes them some distance apart, and you can yoink them all to a centerpoint right into your aura, and in many cases a secondary power like Power Sink, Drain Psyche, etc.

 

BTW I haven't seen anyone mention Electric Blast/Energy Aura Sentinel, who on paper should make for a mean sapper, although (maybe? I'm not completely sure?) would struggle to keep endurance totally tanked.

[nebber]

22 hours ago, CFIndustries said:

I'm okay with maximizing end drain at the expense of other attributes. It's more about pushing the game mechanics in a different or odd way

 

My kin/elec def is a sapper build and I've gone all-in on maxing out end drain on it.  I can't say if this is the best combo/AT for sapping as I haven't tried the other contenders, but I can give advice on the best incarnates to take your sapping to ultra-sapping.

 

Alpha:  Agility Core Paragon for the 45% endmod boost in all powers.

Interface: Preemptive Core adds a chance of end drain to all your attacks.

Destiny: Clarion Radial Ephiphany also boost secondary effects, including end drain.  It is most powerful when you first activate it, then tails off with time.

Lore: Storm Elementals are the Sappiest pets.  

None of the Hybrid choices enhance end drain. 

 

Incarnated out like this is an insane amount of end drain.  I have sapped Reichman to zero endurance. 

[Panache]

10 hours ago, Replacement said:

 

As Doomguide said, this actually is not the case.

 

Mobs tend to have very large endurance pools, but otherwise follow PC rules - namely, end recovery is a percentage per tick.  They queue a power like we do, and so the very moment the server grants them a tick (representing a massive chunk of End), a portion is spent on the queued attack.

 

I haven't looked into it, but I bet their Brawl is free. But reducing them to Brawl is a feat is a worthwhile outcome as well.

 

Once they've been floored, -recovery is the most way to prevent them from acting.

 

Sapping needs work, and there are lots of ways it needs help, but it is actually quite effective with the right build.  I've found any two toons bearing a single elec set each to be enough to justify a change in strategy across a broad range of content.

Yeah, that was bad info from me. Sorry OP!