Determining if the Game is Too Easy

[oedipus_tex]

I've been pretty critical of incarnate abilities in the past, so I'll give the flipside on what I think is good about them. In actual iTrial content, they fit well. With so many players running around on a league, it would be easy to feel like you're not doing anything. Judgment and Destiny guarantee that with some time investment any character is guaranteed to have some impact on the proceedings.

 

Destiny in particular works well in iContent because those missions are written with clumping strategies in mind. The "patches of doom" were extremely controversial when they first appeared--to put it mildly. Those conversations make our discussion about game balance here look like a picnic with Pollyanna and the cast of Bambi. But I think they have proven their value as a balance mechanic. I wouldn't want to lose Destiny on iTrials, it's very dynamic there and really feels like part of the action.

 

The other plus with Destiny is the strength of it allows even non-multiplier players to serve as multipliers. This lessens the impact support characters would otherwise have. They'd be nearly required otherwise. It was a smart move to include an ability of that type in iContent.

 

I do like the idea of more customization or options of some sort like Snarky suggested. In the past I've also suggested being able to slot a version of Judgment that doesn't actually provide a nuke but instead provides an additional chance to roll for a Purple recipe, or some other trade where you deliberately make the fight more difficult but get something for it. The alternative could just be "You get a small chance for a purple recipe roll if you have not clicked Judgment in the past 3 minutes." Fuzzy math not actual math.

Edited July 10, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Luminara]

22 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I'm a golden retriever.

 

Gold retriever ≠ golden retriever.

 

Man... I let that sit for FOUR PAGES, waiting for someone else to jump on it.  Slackers.

[Bill Z Bubba]

7 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Yes, and I wish the people who keep starting these "The Game is too Easy" threads would actually use those difficulty settings. However, they refuse to use those settings. Instead they want the devs to fiddle with the difficulty settings for them, which has the effect of raising the difficulty for the rest of us.

 

To be fair to those folks, choosing added difficulty for no added reward doesn't make much sense either. I would certainly be more inclined to disable insps and temps if, say, drop rates were slightly increased for doing so.

[Yomo Kimyata]

53 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

Gold retriever ≠ golden retriever.

 

Man... I let that sit for FOUR PAGES, waiting for someone else to jump on it.  Slackers.

 

That set up was like this game:  too easy!

 

I'll let myself out.

[golstat2003]

11 hours ago, Monos King said:

The idea wouldn't be to make fighting the enemies more difficult in the sense of increasing their stats or weakening players, so there wouldn't be any change in "difficulty levels". Recall the fights in certain encounters with say Ajax. It isn't hard, but there are things you need to do in order to damage him. Also take fighting something like tsoo. They can be quite challenging when you aren't familiar with their abilities, but once you know to aim for sorcerers, you can begin dealing with the rest. (At least when you aren't on a team that will just DPS them into oblivion.) That sort of thing. More thoughtful, not necessarily more difficult, encounters. Primarily surrounding the definitions of difficult, challenge, and progress as I highlighted in the OP.

 

Not quite. I've said this a few times now, but the ease I'm reviewing is one of progression. For pretty much all of the reasons I highlighted previously, another "setting" won't do anything. In this games glory, people already have the options of settings, but the sentiment of "too ease" still exists. I'll again define the reward chasers and role-players. It is within these categories of players you will find "game too easy" sentiment the most. 

 

Reward chasers want their rewards to come at a price, and want things to feel earned. They aren't challenge hunters, they are ease haters. Their motto: if it comes easy, it's worth little. Feel how you want about them. Role-players are the players you might typically associate with "traditionalists", but really they just want to feel like they are contributing to teams they join. Progression holds an element of ease because rewards come easy, and roles are expendable. So you progress through the game very quickly. When you deconstruct what they are actually complaining about, it is an issue of efficacy and expediency. I doubt we can do anything about expedience, there's a lot of ways to move through content and levels quickly. Not to mention people like it. I do actually empathize with reward chasers, but I think that the proposed strategic encounters will make them feel the rewards were truly earned.

 

In short, if the game stays easy (about the same as it is now) challenge wise, but everyone still has the ability to feel useful then I think both sides will be appeased. That I think we can do, if we come up with good ideas for it.

 

The game is too easy and "i don't feel useful" I think are slightly different things.

 

One way to make more folks feel useful would be to create things that those roles could deal with like mechanics as you alluded to. 

 

FFXIV Online does this quite well.

 

I would argue though that buffs and debuffs definitely feel useful to me when I team with users of those abilities or use them as one of those ATs that have them.

 

Control though could use some work. But I think that's an issue with how control currently works in this game, and not actually the game being too easy.

[golstat2003]

7 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

There are some good thoughts in this thread. Thanks to all for keeping the discussion civil.

 

My personal take on "more difficult" would have a starter template like this:

 

• The Level Shift that is provided at the Alpha Slot would be re-flagged so that it only applies in incarnate content, like Destiny and Lore currently do
• Reward tables would be shifted:
  • Fighting Level 53 enemies provided rewards previously provided for fighting Level 54 enemies
  • Fighting Level 54 enemies would provide somewhat more rewards than before

 

This accomplishes three things:

• Players could use the abilities provided by the game without locking themselves out of being able to easily access +4 challenge level. This is the "harder" part.
• Players would do not like this challenge could fight +3 enemies and retain the same rewards. This the "I'm not interested in forcing anyone to play my way" part.
• The spread of levels on teams is lowered. The sidekick'er would now only be one level higher than his or her sidekick'ed teammates, the same way the pre-end-game works. 

 

I don't personally have any interest in slowing people's progression or lowering rewards. In fact this change would mean people fighting at "true" +4 would be getting more rewards than currently, which they'd deserve, because the fights would be harder. The two biggests requests I have is preserving the challenge of +4 enemies and keeping team level spread closer together so that the pack leader isn't carrying the team as much. 

 

I'd be down for this minus the removal of the level shift. Keep that existing shift the way it is.

 

Any FUTURE additional shifts should locked to incarnate content.

[golstat2003]

5 hours ago, Monos King said:

True, dev time is always kind of the presiding factor. But they have (even in this thread) expressed that if it's popular and desired, it can happen...eventually. So if something like the customizable incarnates we're talking about now somehow got a universal A-Okay, I think it could happen even on the time budget. 

 

I hadn't even thought about something as simple as customizing existing incarnates in exchange for reducing their overall performance though, that's a pretty neat thought. Of that line of "incarnate alternatives" that means we have that idea, and then the breakthrough idea from earlier that I still don't know what would consist of. Do you think a customizable incarnate would be an entire new slot to unlock, or just take perishable materials to do so?

 

This on the other hand I could get behind. Customizable incarnates sounds like fun. How about:

 

• I can adjust any incarnate ability to have 3 times it's recharge in exchange for doubling either it's range or damage. (Aka turn it into an actual nuke that used LESS).
• I can adjust Destiny to last longer, if I choose to increase it's recharge time by the equivalent amount
• I can adjust Lore to generate two pets, but their recharge is longer or they are squishier.

 

Stuff like that I would consider something making the Incarnate system more interesting and not a nerf.

[golstat2003]

5 hours ago, Monos King said:

We'd pretty much definitely need to already have plans for like next level incarnate content if we did actually end up opening up the later slots though. Did you see some of the drafted ideas for them in the AMAs? They were like hilariously insane: nuke level AoE debuffs and chance for one shots.

 

I'd love to see how crazy it would get but first I'd need some toys to test them on. This one would be unpopular, but they'd probably have to be limited to said new content or have exceptionally long cooldowns outside of it in exchange for them being as awesome as I'd hope. I just can't see it being any other way consider what existing incarnates already spells for content now.

 

I'd also get behind this part. For any additional incarnate slots/powers, they should be useable in future incarnate content only.

[Monos King]

4 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

I can adjust any incarnate ability to have 3 times it's recharge in exchange for doubling either it's range or damage. (Aka turn it into an actual nuke that used LESS).

Keep in mind I'm still primarily reviewing methods to reduce or exchange overall effectiveness (to maintain role efficacy and all), but I'll admit that sounds interesting. Particularly the range doubling element. 

 

I would like to see things like double range in exchange for halved strength, for instance. But I'm definitely not resistant to the ideas, because outside of the focus of this thread these are good suggestions in general. 

[Yomo Kimyata]

26 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

 

The game is too easy and "i don't feel useful" I think are slightly different things.

 
I’d like to unpack, “I don’t feel useful.”  I’d appreciate if people who experience it describe why.

 

For me, I don’t feel useful in an Incarnate Trial or a Hami raid or a MSR.  It’s too busy, I have no idea if I helped or not.  I could be providing 90% of the damage or 90% of the control (I’m not) but I’d never know.  That’s a function of the FPS but I don’t feel bad that someone else may be better or more powerful than me.

[Monos King]

1 minute ago, golstat2003 said:

The game is too easy and "i don't feel useful" I think are slightly different things.

In a vacuum yes, but in this case they aren't feeling useful exactly because of an element relating to said ease - that being DPS hyper meta, unkillable characters, and the near immediate access to this extreme damage and nigh unkillableness. You might make encounters go faster with your debuffs (if the enemies aren't one shot), and you might make someone only lose a 4th of their health instead of a third with your buffs...but your presence really didn't change the tide of the fight, or cause a beneficial strategy change. You might not have even used an attack on enemy before it fell.

 

Take kins for example. A best case scenario of having the efficacy I'm talking about. We like damage. If you're on a team of unkillable tanks for some reason, a kin will literally be able to change how fights are approached. Instead of all of them needing to band together to kill an AV in effective time, after some fulcrums and speed boosts they'll be able to split, take on the AV with less of the team, and have the others deal with other objectives. But actually, all of those tanks are actually mega strong and could already do that, so a kin would just speed up whatever process is transpiring. This is a best case scenario because of how important damage is, and while a kin would be enjoyed, what they bring is mostly expendable. This is significantly exacerbated when what you bring to the table isn't some means of increasing damage. If you're on a team of health unmoving blasters, what good are you the mind controller? And why are they all so strong? Because progression was very easy.

 

But again, I'm not clamoring for any buffs to enemies or nerfs to players. I think other mechanics will do the trick just fine. I do want to explain the perspective, and its source.  There isn't any issue with the fact we can get super powerful, but I do think there is validity in noting how easy it is to get there. 

[Monos King]

7 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I’d appreciate if people who experience it describe why.

I don't feel useful in the auction house because Yomo's too busy monopolizing it. 

[Yomo Kimyata]

4 minutes ago, Monos King said:

I don't feel useful in the auction house because Yomo's too busy monopolizing it. 

You laugh, but a friend rejoined the game.  I took him for a look behind the curtain and he said “Jesus, I hate the idea of being a cog in your machine.”

 

Edited July 10, 2021 by Yomo Kimyata
All the cool kids edit

[golstat2003]

24 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 
I’d like to unpack, “I don’t feel useful.”  I’d appreciate if people who experience it describe why.

 

For me, I don’t feel useful in an Incarnate Trial or a Hami raid or a MSR.  It’s too busy, I have no idea if I helped or not.  I could be providing 90% of the damage or 90% of the control (I’m not) but I’d never know.  That’s a function of the FPS but I don’t feel bad that someone else may be better or more powerful than me.

 

I think the issue is so much is going on in those it's sometimes a struggle. It's also why I don't do MSR as much anymore.

[golstat2003]

23 minutes ago, Monos King said:

In a vacuum yes, but in this case they aren't feeling useful exactly because of an element relating to said ease - that being DPS hyper meta, unkillable characters, and the near immediate access to this extreme damage and nigh unkillableness. You might make encounters go faster with your debuffs (if the enemies aren't one shot), and you might make someone only lose a 4th of their health instead of a third with your buffs...but your presence really didn't change the tide of the fight, or cause a beneficial strategy change. You might not have even used an attack on enemy before it fell.

 

Take kins for example. A best case scenario of having the efficacy I'm talking about. We like damage. If you're on a team of unkillable tanks for some reason, a kin will literally be able to change how fights are approached. Instead of all of them needing to band together to kill an AV in effective time, after some fulcrums and speed boosts they'll be able to split, take on the AV with less of the team, and have the others deal with other objectives. But actually, all of those tanks are actually mega strong and could already do that, so a kin would just speed up whatever process is transpiring. This is a best case scenario because of how important damage is, and while a kin would be enjoyed, what they bring is mostly expendable. This is significantly exacerbated when what you bring to the table isn't some means of increasing damage. If you're on a team of health unmoving blasters, what good are you the mind controller? And why are they all so strong? Because progression was very easy.

 

But again, I'm not clamoring for any buffs to enemies or nerfs to players. I think other mechanics will do the trick just fine. I do want to explain the perspective, and its source.  There isn't any issue with the fact we can get super powerful, but I do think there is validity in noting how easy it is to get there. 

 

Yeah I think control would need something to make it less binary and more "active". As a kin I definably DO NOT feel useless as a support. lol

 

In fact my fingers struggle after a few hours.

 

Not feeling useful as Control is a problem with the game not treating control well at all, as a gameplay element.

 

 

Edited July 10, 2021 by golstat2003

[Monos King]

6 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

Not feeling useful as Control is a problem with the game not treating control well at all, as a gameplay element.

For sure. I'm still at a loss as to what mechanics specifically would help to offset it though, and which would be received the best. What comes to mind is Hamidon mitochondria though.

[Bill Z Bubba]

45 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I’d like to unpack, “I don’t feel useful.”  I’d appreciate if people who experience it describe why.

 

For me, I don’t feel useful in an Incarnate Trial or a Hami raid or a MSR.  It’s too busy, I have no idea if I helped or not.  I could be providing 90% of the damage or 90% of the control (I’m not) but I’d never know.  That’s a function of the FPS but I don’t feel bad that someone else may be better or more powerful than me.

 

20 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

I think the issue is so much is going on in those it's sometimes a struggle. It's also why I don't do MSR as much anymore.

 

I was never a fan of any of the raid content. Sure, I did them when I had to for the loot but it was always begrudgingly. I knew I was contributing but with that much going on I also knew that if I was replaced with any other player running any other AT/Combo, the outcome would be the same. I'm glad I've never experienced other games' endgame/raid content.

[oedipus_tex]

1 hour ago, Monos King said:

For sure. I'm still at a loss as to what mechanics specifically would help to offset it though, and which would be received the best. What comes to mind is Hamidon mitochondria though.

 

 

A starting point would be converting a number of enemy Auto armor powers so that they shut down while the target is mezzed. That would translate directly to a desire to mezz things before killing them.

 

Would have to not be every Auto power though. Some armors should stay up full time.

 

For future iTrials, loading some enemy packs up with hard to crack armors and forcing players to use controls to overcome the toggle would be a nice touch. There are two methods of accomplishing this, self toggles, and auras.

 

Note you can already do this in the AE by giving a bunch of enemies Sonic Resonance or Storm (Steamy Mists) type powers.

Edited July 10, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Snarky]

5 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

To be fair to those folks, choosing added difficulty for no added reward doesn't make much sense either. I would certainly be more inclined to disable insps and temps if, say, drop rates were slightly increased for doing so.

Welk half these people want to nerf rewards as well.  So they want stuff to be tougher and give less loot

[Monos King]

5 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Welk half these people want to nerf rewards as well.  So they want stuff to be tougher and give less loot

We can ignore those guys, rewards aren't going to be reduced like ever so there's no point in even humoring it regards of the potential consequences of doing so. I know there's a swimming dog somewhere sniffling about it, but we all know that ships sailed. 

[Yomo Kimyata]

2 minutes ago, Monos King said:

We can ignore those guys, rewards aren't going to be reduced like ever so there's no point in even humoring it regards of the potential consequences of doing so. I know there's a swimming dog somewhere sniffling about it, but we all know that ships sailed. 

 

I agree, they won't be nerfed, and I also agree that buffs that have been introduced won't ever be rolled back.  I'm realistic.  I'm just hoping that HC powers-that-be think twice before adding more features that make things easier *in the future*.

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 minutes ago, Monos King said:

We can ignore those guys, rewards aren't going to be reduced like ever so there's no point in even humoring it regards of the potential consequences of doing so. I know there's a swimming dog somewhere sniffling about it, but we all know that ships sailed. 

 

I *would* like it kept in mind that increased difficulty *should* always be met with increased reward.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, Yomo Kimyata said:

I agree, they won't be nerfed, and I also agree that buffs that have been introduced won't ever be rolled back.  I'm realistic.  I'm just hoping that HC powers-that-be think twice before adding more features that make things easier *in the future*.

 

I honestly hope that's NOT true. Bad changes *should* be rolled back. Tanks *WERE* overbuffed and should be nerfed. P2W garbage made sense on the SSPS with its minimal invite-only playerbase but have no place here and should be purged. Being able to run around with a near infinite amount of T3-T4 insps in email *should* be blocked.

I'll continue to hope that sanity overrides the fear of player backlash.

[Yomo Kimyata]

On 7/9/2021 at 9:31 AM, Cobalt Arachne said:

 

That being said, there are currently no plans to retroactively adjust or change previously-existing content's difficulty; But we're always evaluating based on the feedback.

 

On 7/9/2021 at 5:30 PM, Faultline said:

 

Remove boosters and catalysts from the drop tables, remove the super packs from the auction house and disable incarnate abilities outside of missions built for them? Sure, I take it you're volunteering to deal with everyone carrying pitchforks and torches?

 

4 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I honestly hope that's NOT true. Bad changes *should* be rolled back. Tanks *WERE* overbuffed and should be nerfed. P2W garbage made sense on the SSPS with its minimal invite-only playerbase but have no place here and should be purged. Being able to run around with a near infinite amount of T3-T4 insps in email *should* be blocked.

I'll continue to hope that sanity overrides the fear of player backlash.

 

Sorry @Bill Z Bubba, the mobs have spoken.  They want a monorail.

[Cobalt Arachne]

31 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

 

 

Sorry @Bill Z Bubba, the mobs have spoken.  They want a monorail.

To clarify on my statement, as it's being quoted to the wrong effect here.

 

New methodology of increasing the difficulty are already built and in testing now, and in more engaging ways than just making numbers bigger.

 

As always, we're watching the feedback and are always looking for opportunities to improve existing content. When we approach adjustments, it will be with intent and in ways beyond purely stats.

 

Various elements have already proven that simply having bigger numbers alone does not engaging challenges make. (Keep in mind challenge is not strictly the same as difficulty, and the degree of punishing elements and accessibility play into what defines that.)

 

We're absolutely interested in giving the players a good challenge. The upcoming team content should be extremely difficult if players choose to play it on max difficulty. Setting difficulty should be a choice that means something.

 

Perhaps it is more accurate to say there are no plans to retroactively adjust the difficulty floor, but the ceiling, that's a different matter. What's important is players having the ability to opt up or down depending on their preference so that people who enjoyed previous content where it currently is can continue to do so.