knockback Proposed Knockback modifcation/fix

[TheZag]

It would be a not good option.  Those who dislike knockback already and are vocal about it will be more likely to tell those who have chosen to keep their knockback that they are playing wrong or some other unsavory comment.

[Zewks]

2 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

The thread with the developer post that Sunsette linked to was from January 2020, which just goes to show how long this debate has been going on. In it the suggestion was to make a toggle that would cost no endurance and turn all knockback powers into knockdown powers. That seems like an option that would meet all of your criteria.

 

However, even that won't allow people to play they way they want to play. Because, while in teams, people will be likely be told to turn their KB->KD toggle on or get kicked from the team. How is that "playing the way they want to play?"

 

The IOs that we actually have in game now allow people to slot some knockback powers for knockdown and not others. This allows players more flexibility in that they can set many abilities to just knockdown while still maintaining the ability to do knockback when they feel the need to.

 

 

Playing the way you want to play is only valid up until the point where it affects OTHER players.

 

Its no different in real life. You can do what you want, but as soon as it affects someone else, thats when rules and laws step in and stomp on whatever freedoms you might have originally had.

 

So, to clarify... Playing how YOU want to play fits into the following examples.

 

- Choosing how you personally like to have the powers function when playing the game solo

- Choosing to alter said powers to meet the requirements of a group that you CHOOSE to play with

 

If someone in a group said, "im not going to wait for the tank, im going to pull how I want", they would get kicked as well. Every player, when CHOOSING to interact with others, has to either agree to follow guidelines, or deal with the consequences (ie: getting kicked).

 

....

 

Now.. back to it being an option... Regardless of it affects getting kicked in a group or not, having the option for solo (or private play) is still a 100% positive thing. Its nice to know that the devs have considered a toggle or similar functionality.

 

If a player wanted some powers to have knockback and others to not have knockdown, the toggle could simply ignore the effect granted by an IO. The toggle could be set to ONLY interact with the inherent value of a power. So you would leave the toglle set to knockback (or "off") and just slot the powers you wanted to knockdown, with knock down.

 

The solution isnt rocket science, but coding it might be.

 

 

 

 

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 hour ago, Zewks said:

Playing the way you want to play is only valid up until the point where it affects OTHER players.

Correct.

 

See, knockback isn't the problem. Stupid is the problem.

 

If my blaster uses Power Thrust to save himself from the one guy that hasn't noticed the tank, that's not a problem. If I use Energy Torrent to save the defender from a bunch of guys that are about to drop him that's also not a problem.

 

The problem is when someone uses Energy Torrent to knock a bunch of enemies away from the tank or out of the teams' AoEs. But you know what else is a problem? When a controller does an AoE immob that stops the enemies from clustering around my Invuln tank, thus lowering her defense and making it difficult to hold aggro. Or when the blaster lights another group on fire and gets himself, and the defender, killed because he doesn't understand what "aggro cap" means. Or when the defender is too busy playing with his beam rifle and forgets to reapply bubbles (not that I've ever done that, no sir!).

 

So I believe that the problem is not knockback, the problem is stupid. And no amount of coding can fix stupid.

Edited July 13, 2021 by PeregrineFalcon
typo

[dnomad333]

50 minutes ago, Zewks said:

Now.. back to it being an option... Regardless of it affects getting kicked in a group or not, having the option for solo (or private play) is still a 100% positive thing. Its nice to know that the devs have considered a toggle or similar functionality.

 

If a player wanted some powers to have knockback and others to not have knockdown, the toggle could simply ignore the effect granted by an IO. The toggle could be set to ONLY interact with the inherent value of a power. So you would leave the toglle set to knockback (or "off") and just slot the powers you wanted to knockdown, with knock down.

 

The solution isnt rocket science, but coding it might be.

 

I have to agree that playing your way will affect those around you. For example, a Empath with only one attack is going to have a difficult time soloing. A Tank with out Taunt will have a harder time taunting. A pet less Mastermind or a Blaster without most ranged attacks. Well that is just interesting.

 

Unfortunately, while KB/KD/KU may have been considered to be a toggle, I'm not sure it can be. Why create a global toggle that only effects a few? Does that mean the rest are penalized?

As a Null the Gull option? Similar reasons. However I think that Null's powers options should be placed in the options Menu, and Alignments, which should be... I'm getting away from the point here.

 

As far as Null's options are concerned. Consider this -

Group powers work as an option, because it doesn't turn off the power for the user.  Just the affected.

Travel powers don't turn off the power completely. Just the speed component.

 

How would KB/KD/KU work as a Null or option in the Options Menu? How can it apply to all characters?

 

Also Zweks, earlier you said (Having trouble quoting it, Sigh) -

**1. I dont believe the option should cost ANY enhancement slots or currency (ie: you have to acquire the IO, which many new players wont be able to early on)**

 

This is already the case now. Best thing is to make the IO's available at lvl 1 and common. But that's just my two cents.

[dnomad333]

9 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Correct.

 

See, knockback isn't the problem. Stupid is the problem.

 

If my blaster uses Power Thrust to save himself from the one guy that hasn't noticed the tank, that's not a problem. If I use Energy Torrent to save the defender from a bunch of guys that are about to drop him that's also not a problem.

 

The problem is when someone uses Energy Torrent to knock a bunch of enemies away from the tank or out of the teams' AoEs. But you know what else is a problem? When a controller does an AoE immob that stops the enemies from clustering around my Invuln tank, thus lowering her defense and making it difficult to hold aggro. Or when the blaster lights another group on fire and gets himself, and the defender, killed because he doesn't understand what "aggro cap" means. Or when the defender is too busy playing with his beam rifle and forgets to reapply bubbles (not that I've ever done that, no sir!).

 

So I believe that the problem is not knockback, the problem is stupid. And no amount of coding can fix stupid.

 

Ok. Now that's just plain rude. I don't believe it's stupidity. It's more likely a loss of focus or just plain lack of experience. Things happen, that I understand. I just want more options.

[PeregrineFalcon]

4 minutes ago, dnomad333 said:

Ok. Now that's just plain rude.

Ok, fine. In place of stupid substitute whichever less rude word you prefer. My point remains the same.

[Ghost]

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Ok, fine. In place of stupid substitute whichever less rude word you prefer. My point remains the same.

your point is still bad, and still rude.

 

 

Edited July 13, 2021 by Ghost

[Veracor]

I'd be down for some way of changing KB to KD without the player having to waste enhancement slots for it.  It would allow users of KB powersets a smoother choice to sacrifice some of the defense their KB provides (KB is longer than KD, can put distance on melee mobs) to be overall more team-friendly; and I'm all for good teaming, quality of life, and more variety.

 

A global switch would:

• Not invalidate existing builds or characters, for those that prefer it as it is now or for those that want to mix the two knocks.
• Make the powersets more accessible to newer players who are still learning how enhancements work, and be less confusing to them.
• Eliminate a lot of bad reputation of the KB powersets and cause newer players to have less negative experiences in teaming, especially at lower levels.
• Cause people to actually check the KB powersets out, as I have heard many say that KB/reputation of the sets is the reason why they don't bother trying them.
• Make teaming overall better for the character concepts that aren't centered around the KB component of the sets (Turns out a lot of people just want to shoot generic energy out of their hands so that they can reflavor it).
• Likely increase the shelf-life of Energy Blast characters and Kheldians; I have seen many "mains" of these end up rerolling due to disappointment or frequent heckling.

And there's multiple ways a global switch could be implemented, too:

• A unique enhancement called Really Sudden Acceleration.
• A toggle inherent to the powersets called Stop Yelling At Me.
• A P2W option (Get On The Floor) with a revoke option (Get On The Wall).
• Another Null the Gull option, bonus points for knocking you down when you pick it.
• Some new-fangled amazing UI tech on the powers screen that lets you customize their effects a bit.

To be honest, I don't really see a good argument for not providing even a simplistic option for it -- the best argument to me is CPH's "it would force everyone to do it or be outcast" and I feel that it's indirect to the issue.  The players that want their KB completely gone are already making it gone, and the players that don't are already being outcast for it.  This change would simplify the problem and make a clean switch for those players to not have to muck with their builds, especially if they're actively swapping between KB and KD for soloing/teaming, and just overall make their lives on Homecoming better.

 

Now mind you, I would rather the knockback mechanic, or the sets centered around them, be redesigned to properly fix the issue, but a global switch would certainly be a good band-aid in the meantime (moreso for reducing toxicity and increasing play than for mechanical reason).

Edited July 13, 2021 by Veracor

[Naraka]

8 minutes ago, Veracor said:

I'd be down for some way of changing KB to KD without the player having to waste enhancement slots for it. 

 

Well I just can't take this rationality seriously.

 

Is it wasting a slot if it's giving you an effect that you want the power to have?  Also, if the IO is giving additional damage slotting (in the case of Overwhelming Force's KB>KD also enhancing damage), how it is a wasted slot?  It's no different than putting procs or uniques in other powers so you get those bonuses too.  This is how IOs work.  You're not meant to just get stuff for free (on top of all the free stuff we already have) all the time.

 

Now maybe they could add accuracy enhancement to Sudden Acceleration so you have a choice of +dmg/KB>KD (Overwhelming Force) and +acc/KB>KD, but slotting these enhancements power by power *IS* the optimal solution for *EVERYONE*, to include the players that like to have some focused KB but altering the scatter on AoE KB as well as players that want all their KB turned off.  

 

To push for a change that adds a global switch, you'd have to prove the current situation is detrimental to builds.  And by detrimental, that would mean worse with it than without and I think that would be difficult to prove overall.

[ironjoe]

17 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Or is it possible that it's just you and your friends/guildmates that dislike Knockback?

 

gaslighting

manipulate (someone) by psychological means into questioning their own sanity.

 

We have all seen enough discussions on these forums and on other platforms to generally know what the player consensus is in this area. You comments are manipulative and dismissive of reality. I did in fact run a poll of players and out of 236 responses, only 29 like knockback. That fact that you have to use manipulation and what we all know are lies to back your arguments detracts from any further points you would make.

[Alimorel]

18 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Or is it possible that it's just you and your friends/guildmates that dislike Knockback?

 

16 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I asked all of my friends who play City of Heroes. 87% of them said they prefer knockback to knockdown.

So... Vagabond HAS to have some "proper" statistics, but YOU'RE allowed to not have "proper" statistics? I see how it is.
Anywho, there's plenty of people that like KB, I see people advertising All KB teams frequently enough. And it has its uses. My fire/storm corrupter uses gale's KB for things like smacking mobs off of the reactors in Keyes. but I don't want tornado having KB. so I wouldn't even use a suggested "global switch". and that's my 2 cents.

[SwitchFade]

Knock back is fine as is, no vote.

Edited July 13, 2021 by SwitchFade

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, ironjoe said:

 

gaslighting

manipulate (someone) by psychological means into questioning their own sanity.

 

We have all seen enough discussions on these forums and on other platforms to generally know what the player consensus is in this area. You comments are manipulative and dismissive of reality. I did in fact run a poll of players and out of 236 responses, only 29 like knockback. That fact that you have to use manipulation and what we all know are lies to back your arguments detracts from any further points you would make.

 

I see you have an issue reading context.

 

As for your poll, unless you actually outline what it was asking and its context, liking and not liking KB has nothing to do with attempting to abolish it either wholesale or through coercion.  

 

14 minutes ago, Alimorel said:

 

So... Vagabond HAS to have some "proper" statistics, but YOU'RE allowed to not have "proper" statistics? I see how it is.
 

 

We all know @PeregrineFalcon's statistics were balked. That was the point.  You can just make up statistics all day when you don't show the numbers and the context.  Like, out of 236 responses to a poll, only 29 liking KB likely excludes the 41 that like *some* KB but don't like uncontrolled AoE KB or chance of KB as well as the 24 who don't like to inconvenience other players who complain loudly and avoids using KB or the 63 that don't like having to use the tools to position for KB but don't want to negatively impact the players that *DO* tactically utilize KB to their team's advantage or the 18 that literally don't care either way because the game is easy.

[ironjoe]

So my general thought is I like to give players options. When a player has more agency they are generally happier and it's one of the great things about this game.

 

I would say the majority of players don't like knockback because of those using it poorly or because they would prefer to just have knockdown themselves without the IO tax. Speaking of the IO's, how popular the KB2KD IOs are in builds show how well liked they are.

 

I would be in favor of keeping the IO's and adding a global toggle as it would give players even more options to suit particular play-styles. It would be particularly helpful to those players if it also impacted pets.

 

Adding more player choice is always a good decision.

[Naraka]

2 minutes ago, ironjoe said:

So my general thought is I like to give players options. When a player has more agency they are generally happier and it's one of the great things about this game.

 

I would say the majority of players don't like knockback because of those using it poorly or because they would prefer to just have knockdown themselves without the IO tax. Speaking of the IO's, how popular the KB2KD IOs are in builds show how well liked they are.

 

I would be in favor of keeping the IO's and adding a global toggle as it would give players even more options to suit particular play-styles. It would be particularly helpful to those players if it also impacted pets.

 

Adding more player choice is always a good decision.

 

You say IO tax, I say near-equivalent exchange.

 

As is, the KB>KD IO already breaks certain powers (looking at you, Bonfire) because some powers just aren't meant to do KD.  Getting that functionality using an IO seems somewhat fair but getting that for free is likely a problem you haven't thought through or simply don't care about.

 

At best, I think getting some kind of enhancement value added to Sudden Acceleration's KB>KD should be the best compromise here because no one wants to go picking through powers to balance them just because some players just want everything for free.

[JasperStone]

I have experienced good and bad responses to KB. The worst was a tanker rage quitting  ....

 

What if this was handled like Dual Pistols where we are given toggles to choose between KB, KD, and KU?

 

 

[ironjoe]

1 hour ago, Naraka said:

 

I see you have an issue reading context.

 

As for your poll, unless you actually outline what it was asking and its context, liking and not liking KB has nothing to do with attempting to abolish it either wholesale or through coercion. 

 

As far as context the individual was asserting that knockback is universally not liked/unpopular with players. We have seen enough discussions and all have played on enough teams to know that's largely true. The survey was on one of the CoH Facebook groups and asked if players liked Knockback, Knockdown, or Knockup. Yes, it is a rough survey but it gives us some numbers to show what we all know is true. One survey shouldn't be the end all decision maker though. I think there is value in a more granular survey like you mentioned that could shed light in multiple options that would improve gameplay.

[ironjoe]

1 hour ago, Naraka said:

As is, the KB>KD IO already breaks certain powers (looking at you, Bonfire) because some powers just aren't meant to do KD.  Getting that functionality using an IO seems somewhat fair but getting that for free is likely a problem you haven't thought through or simply don't care about.

 

There were multiple reasons I was recommending both options. During any beta testing phase we typically look at multiple powers and argue over the minutia of different numbers and their impact. I think you underestimate peoples willingness to argue over the specifics if we went down this route.

[ironjoe]

46 minutes ago, JasperStone said:

I have experienced good and bad responses to KB. The worst was a tanker rage quitting  ....

 

What if this was handled like Dual Pistols where we are given toggles to choose between KB, KD, and KU?

 

That might be too much fun. I would have to slot Foot Stomp with some added KB and have the KU toggle chosen to use it as a mini Mighty Radial Final Judgement. That would be too much fun for some people.

[Koopak]

12 hours ago, Zewks said:

 

1. I dont believe the option should cost ANY enhancement slots or currency (ie: you have to acquire the IO, which many new players wont be able to early on)

 

 

This is the number one problem i have with all of this. This entire conversation presupposes a false assumption. Perhaps some people have it in mind but comments like this, that KB -> KD should be 100% free hint at many people not. That false assumption is that an enhancement that does ONLY KB->KD (as it is now) is a performance loss.

I take huge issue with this assumption because many of the arguments for why KB->KD is needed hinge on how KB pushes enemies out of AoEs. It should stand to reason, and is clearly demonstrable, that KB->KD is there for a highly valuable enhancement that greatly increases overall damage output of not only the user but the team as a whole. I personally feel an enhancement that allows a power that normally scatters enemies, making follow up AoE hard, to instead keep them close to be worth far more in terms of damage increase than any other enhancement could do in that slot. Which is also why I appose adding any other stat to the enhancement, it is already one of the most powerful in the game id argue. And none of this is talking about the very real, if difficult to quantify, value of KB as a survival tool which others have pointed out.

Setting aside toxic community behavior a moment, these powers were created with knock back intentionally, both as upsides and downsides I suspect, as well as for the sheer enjoyment of flinging people across a room. I do not think being able to turn this feature effectively off is a "dead slot" or whatever. I disagree with a global setting because then many AoEs would need to have their damage adjusted to reflect this change. I disagree with a global IO because of the same issues plus the awkwardness of that one IO on builds. In fact I feel the current solution is honestly the best that's possible short of major back end changes to the game.

Picking back up the toxic behavior issues? Shit id almost advocate for the removal of KB->KD entirely. Now I'm going to be a bit hyperbolic here so bare with me. The IO is seen as a "cure" for poor play, and the fact it exist takes people from a mindset of "ugh i hate knockback in this game" to "I hate this idiot on my team right now" as the default. What I mean is, if we roll back to prior to this IO's existence, back KB usage would get complained about, but most of the time, people who weren't total assholes would assume a level of inexperience or just plain old mistakes. "Positioning is hard yo." Now however the default is to assume that anyone who isn't using KB->KD is doing so intentionally and without regard for their team, or even actively trolling.

Again, hyperbolic, but I'm sure many of us have met 'that guy', and my main point in this part is that easy options to turn KB off, cause significantly more problems in the community than the existence of KB itself. Those who are overly sensitive about KB for whatever reason, likely bad past experiences, now have a 'reason' to point to for why its okay in their mind to mistreat others, because the solution is just "so simple". Put simply, giving people the power to turn of KB->KD, ESPECIALLY for free or cheaper, encourages people to hate the player, not the game, and that is profoundly unhealthy for the community.

Before anyone suggests it by the way, no the moderation team cannot solve that through rulings, penalties, and bans, you can't moderate that kinda behavior, just crack the whip incessantly to not avail and at best drive players away. You can see this in some of the more toxic online communities out there where the game actively encourages a behavior by its design, and the moderators of that community try their damnedest to enforce even, fair, positive treatment, and it just makes it worse in the end through no fault of that mod team.

(TL;DR: If you've seen me you know I rant. Leave KB->KD as it is, its NOT a dead enhancement slot, KB->KD = more damage, no need for extra stats on the enhancement, any easier solution would only exaggerate the currently relatively minor toxicity surround it)

[Naraka]

 

32 minutes ago, ironjoe said:

 

There were multiple reasons I was recommending both options. During any beta testing phase we typically look at multiple powers and argue over the minutia of different numbers and their impact. I think you underestimate peoples willingness to argue over the specifics if we went down this route.

 

The problem is, people are always willing to set up options so long as their best interest is represented.  It goes from being "more options are always best" to some sort of manipulative self-interested insert.  Same with the whole teleportation changes that have made movement mostly delegated to mass team-TP/SG TP affairs that, while convenient, mostly invalidates a lot of the travel system to make the city even smaller than it is.  Of course, you have the option of not using them but that option is likely never exercised or will get you thrown out or excluded from TF teams one way or another.

 

Sometimes, in real life, you need a kick in the teeth to get you on your toes or some crisis/revelation to shine light on the fact you're getting soft and weak.  Same thing with the game, but the game really isn't going to force that circumstance so I'll just remind you that the situation you have now is what people clamored for before.  You got what you wanted and now you should be satisfied you have it so good.  The only thing your other option is is asking to have your cake after you already dug into the one you have.

 

So, no.  

 

[dnomad333]

I just finished reading the posts missed while I was sleep (Yeah, Yeah I know. Sleep is for the weak  ). And there were a lot of good arguments for and against.

Now obviously, I'm for a change. Personally, if all things were equal I would love a rework of this mechanic. It's been in the game since the beginning, and may be dated because of that. Especially since the game has evolved past the current KB since it was introduced. Do I think it's useless? No. As has been mentioned by both sides of the argument, there is something about blasting mobs into the next county and giggling the whole time. However it's usefulness at the time is subject to what your trying to do. Line driving mobs? Good. Grouping enemies for a take down. Bad.

 

Many have offered potential solutions. My self included. And in the end, the one consistent is that this is a change that should be considered carefully. Again, I want to put forth, that all I am proposing at this time is a temporary solution, till a better one can be found and put into play. But that will be reliant on if the Developers consider this important enough to do, and have enough time to do it. They are after all mortal and no matter how much we want something, they have to have the time to put it in play. My thought here is this serious enough to warrant a change? Again, I think the answer is yes.

 

Obviously there is a debate on it and at least two opposing opinions. So in the end. If we leave things as is. Powersets will be stagnant. Players will be harassed and people will complain. But that seems to be par for the course. So. What do WE do?

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 hour ago, ironjoe said:

As far as context the individual was asserting that knockback is universally not liked/unpopular with players.

Well, he'd be wrong. And so are you: Here's a link to an actual poll that was conducted last year.

 

The players who say they LOVE KNOCKBACK total 52.47% of the respondents. Players who hate knockback, or who wish it was knockdown instead, total just 22.77% of the respondents.

 

So much for your "majority."

 

BTW, gaslighting is when you engage in deception over a long period of time with the purpose of making someone question their sanity. When I simply disagree with you on something, especially when it's just once, then it's literally not gaslighting.

 

So now you're 0 and 2, Iron Joe. Care to take a third swing?

[Naraka]

24 minutes ago, dnomad333 said:

 

Obviously there is a debate on it and at least two opposing opinions. So in the end. If we leave things as is. Powersets will be stagnant. Players will be harassed and people will complain. But that seems to be par for the course. So. What do WE do?

 

Well of course we're going to leave things as is, not because your suggestion is bad or divisive but rather it's not a priority issue thus if any change ever occurs, it will likely be further in the future.

 

That being said, I don't think your suggestion solves anything you're saying.  Players will still be harassed (if they indeed are being *actually* harassed and not just mildly inconvenienced or kicked from a team...newsflash, the kick feature exists in MMOs to be used, not to write treaties of everlasting peace among every individual) and powersets will still be stagnant (whatever that's supposed to mean).

 

Beyond all that, as a person who likes to see things from the perspectives of others to better argue a point, I'd like you to at least be up front and explain why you specifically want the suggesting you're suggesting.  Because, to me, you already have your solution...it was a solution that was fought for and eventually implemented.  It was a solution that gives agency and choice in how your powers function and that comes with consequences for a clear advantage that you choose to obtain.  Now tell me why you shouldn't have to pay for those advantages but instead should obtain them for free.

[Super Atom]

1 hour ago, dnomad333 said:

I just finished reading the posts missed while I was sleep (Yeah, Yeah I know. Sleep is for the weak  ). And there were a lot of good arguments for and against.

 

You sure? The arguments for are usually "I aim it good" or "I like KB" with no further explanation or elaboration on how KB is a good status effect and not just a negative modifier in a majority of the game. Powerhouse was quoted as saying the only reason he didn't want to add a global IO is because the chance of bullying people without it, however that line of reasoning makes no sense because it happens anyway and to not have that issue you need multiple IO slots.

 

I personally don't care. Knock back has been around forever and to be honest, it's been hated forever. Repel/Knock back has always been viewed as griefing your team. The only reason for a universal KB>KD IO at this point is to free up slots to let sets like Energy Blast use a damage proc instead of their KB>KD IO to have better damage, same for Tornado/Water spout. Other than those, repel will still be a thing. We'll never see a day where hurricane just knocks people down, so there's basically no reason to fight overly hard.

 

edit: also hurricane would be busted OP if it didn't do repel, also what that person said is correct. Generally, the KB>KD IO increases the overall DPS of the thing you put it in (except energy blast)

Edited July 13, 2021 by Super Atom