What are you guys doing to revive PvP? A suggestion.

[Glacier Peak]

Just now, Super Atom said:

To add the minor things PvPers are looking for, like base stuff and occasional balance tweaks not so much.

Well said! Especially considering the amount of playtesting, thorough analysis, and consolidated feedback players give regarding proposed changes. The HC volunteers have been nothing but open to dialing in fixes and improving the game play experience in PvP.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

18 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

@Llewellyn Blackwell To change CoH PvP to anything like those MMO's would be a massive waste of time, that's correct.

 

To add the minor things PvPers are looking for, like base stuff and occasional balance tweaks not so much.

Base stuff does not sound at all minor considering it was something even the live dev team shelved as not worth their time. HC has given us amazing outdoor base building for RP, and I am pretty sure I recall a year or two back on a thread like this, it was basically said by the HC team they would have to remove that entirely if they wanted to bring back base pvp raiding or end up bogged down in endless issues with bases bugging out As all of us know the outdoor bases do not have actual game frame work underneath like pathing for pets. Something I doubt could be changed without a hell of a lot of work. Granted I am far from some expert, but in my very very minimal experience with modding games, textures, layers,and the wire meshing game worlds need to function are not even close to a quick job.

 

And as for balance tweaks, well again if lets be honest here maybe at best 1% of the HC community actively spends most of their time in pvp as I think i am frankly being generous to suggest that much of a%, it again sounds like asking dev energy to be spent for the benefit of a very small part of the community, one that lets be frank as is seen in threads like this, is not one even particularly liked or even wanted here by the larger community.

 

Its not unique to this game at all btw. Go check out a modern popular game like Warframe, its PVP is also basically and always has been a dead bit of development, as once it was clear not enough took active part in it, it was seen as a major blunder and even cost people careers for the mistake of putting it into the game.

 

Look I love a good PVP experience. I just dont think CoH ever can give one, and even trying to is a waste of time.

[Super Atom]

9 minutes ago, Llewellyn Blackwell said:

Base stuff does not sound at all minor considering it was something even the live dev team shelved as not worth their time. HC has given us amazing outdoor base building for RP, and I am pretty sure I recall a year or two back on a thread like this, it was basically said by the HC team they would have to remove that entirely if they wanted to bring back base pvp raiding or end up bogged down in endless issues with bases bugging out As all of us know the outdoor bases do not have actual game frame work underneath like pathing for pets. Something I doubt could be changed without a hell of a lot of work. Granted I am far from some expert, but in my very very minimal experience with modding games, textures, layers,and the wire meshing game worlds need to function are not even close to a quick job.

 

And as for balance tweaks, well again if lets be honest here maybe at best 1% of the HC community actively spends most of their time in pvp as I think i am frankly being generous to suggest that much of a%, it again sounds like asking dev energy to be spent for the benefit of a very small part of the community, one that lets be frank as is seen in threads like this, is not one even particularly liked or even wanted here by the larger community.

 

Its not unique to this game at all btw. Go check out a modern popular game like Warframe, its PVP is also basically and always has been a dead bit of development, as once it was clear not enough took active part in it, it was seen as a major blunder and even cost people careers for the mistake of putting it into the game.

 

Look I love a good PVP experience. I just dont think CoH ever can give one, and even trying to is a waste of time.

 

The PvPers do most of the balance changes themselves, with extensive testing. The base stuff likely wouldn't take more than a single dev looking into what is and is not possible in terms of just adding a way to flag the base as in pvp or not by using what was already there to do so and from there PvPers would just make their own content using the bases.

 

I don't disagree with you that as far as homecoming goes, huge PvP content updates would likely be a waste of resources due to numbers but to abandon it all together because a small amount of people do it doesn't seem necessary either.

 

plus they're all volunteers and likely get to choose what they feel like doing, so what we think matters little lol if one decides to help out pvpers nobody can really criticize them for it since they're volunteers anyway.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Super Atom

[SwitchFade]

2 hours ago, Super Atom said:

 

PvP was a huge part of CoH until issue 13 and even after, the most populated server (Freedom) had a huge PvP presence, the zone PvP was always huge battles. To say PvP was minuscule is a bold face lie. After issue 13 and PvPers began to quit, the playerbase suffered greatly especially on my home server of Guardian which went from a medium population server to a low population server. PvP was so prominent at the time, it was a selling point for City of Villains and its PvP zones. Even twords the end of the game, Virtue (Roleplay server) had a decent sized PvP community.

 

It would not require "considerable resources" nor would it require the current developers who are hard at work doing PvE content to stop what they're doing. It would require the same amount of attention it current gets, I don't know if you've noticed but patch notes usually have PvP changes in them as is. So guess you better move on? Your contributions are not to the developers or their time, It's to the server cost. The developers owe you nothing and do not have to do anything you think they should or shouldn't, your entitlement is kinda disgusting TBH.

Apologies, but misguided information you're staying aside, pvp population was never "huge," when compared to PVE, as I have said. Please define your criteria for huge versus PvE, as I have said.

 

Further, hyperbole is probably not a great tactic for convincing anyone that any argument is relevant.

 

I would highly recommend against such derision if you want to be taken seriously.

[Super Atom]

8 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Apologies, but misguided information you're staying aside, pvp population was never "huge," when compared to PVE, as I have said. Please define your criteria for huge versus PvE, as I have said.

 

Further, hyperbole is probably not a great tactic for convincing anyone that any argument is relevant.

 

I would highly recommend against such derision if you want to be taken seriously.

 

1) Comparing PvP to PvE players is stupid, PvP players are also PvE players. Comparing the size is a strawman argument which is the only thing you know how to do.

2) The PvP player base from issue 4 to Issue 13 was enough to fill multiple PvP Zones. I don't know why you continue to push a false narrative that PvP was always small other than you obvious bias against PvP.

3) Hyperbole is making statements like "Proven data" when there is none.

4) Taken seriously, by who? You? What an absolute joke. You seriously have an ego to the point where you think you get to demand what the current team does or does not do on threat of losing your contribution to the server. You're literally trying to extort the developers into not doing anything for PvP because YOU don't enjoy it. Absolutely disgusting. You should be ashamed of your behavior on this thread.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Super Atom

[SwitchFade]

2 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

 

1) Comparing PvP to PvE players is stupid, PvP players are also PvE players. Comparing the size is a strawman argument which is the only thing you know how to do.

2) The PvP player base from issue 4 to Issue 13 was enough to fill multiple PvP Zones. I don't know why you continue to push a false narrative that PvP was always small other than you obvious bias against PvP.

3) Hyperbole is making statements like "Proven data" when there is none.

4) Taken seriously, by who? You? What an absolute joke. You seriously have an ego to the point where you think you get to demand what the current team does or does not do on threat of losing your contribution to the server. You're literally trying to extort the developers into not doing anything for PvP because YOU don't enjoy it. Absolutely disgusting. You should be ashamed of your behavior on this thread.

Sadly, you've demonstrated with this behavior that taking you seriously will be difficult.

[golstat2003]

3 hours ago, Super Atom said:

 

PvP was a huge part of CoH until issue 13 and even after, the most populated server (Freedom) had a huge PvP presence, the zone PvP was always huge battles. To say PvP was minuscule is a bold face lie. After issue 13 and PvPers began to quit, the playerbase suffered greatly especially on my home server of Guardian which went from a medium population server to a low population server. PvP was so prominent at the time, it was a selling point for City of Villains and its PvP zones. Even twords the end of the game, Virtue (Roleplay server) had a decent sized PvP community.

 

It would not require "considerable resources" nor would it require the current developers who are hard at work doing PvE content to stop what they're doing. It would require the same amount of attention it current gets, I don't know if you've noticed but patch notes usually have PvP changes in them as is. So guess you better move on? Your contributions are not to the developers or their time, It's to the server cost. The developers owe you nothing and do not have to do anything you think they should or shouldn't, your entitlement is kinda disgusting TBH.

 

To make tweaks and additions based on feedback from pvpers, sure. I think the objection is to an open world server, which I think we all agree would be waste of time.

[Illy]

A server merger and the ability to flag oneself for open-world pvp is my last thought after reading all the responses. Just my opinion. But I don't think any idea would really succeed unless the general player-population issue is sorted by introducing a server merger. 

[Super Atom]

47 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

 

To make tweaks and additions based on feedback from pvpers, sure. I think the objection is to an open world server, which I think we all agree would be waste of time.

 

Oh yeah 100% even back in the day most people just wanted a level 50 version of warburg, not so much an entire open pvp world.

 

 

[Giovanni Valia]

I don't even play on HC anymore, but It's sad to hear that the PvP community has all but died. I had a handful of alts with PvP builds on indom for awhile and had a lot of fun in arena with the PvP community and friends. At least for me and my friends, the biggest barrier to doing more PvP was collecting the IOs to make competitive builds. I think lowering bar to compete in the PvP environment would help a lot, regardless of who wants to participate. PvP-only free IOs would help get people set up and running.

 

Edit: Also should mention, that I've heard from other developers that server wide opt-in PvP is just not possible from a code stand-point, even though I'd enjoy seeing it. Maybe a "duel" option similar to trading that requires both players to agree to PvP on the fly.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Giovanni Valia

[Mezmera]

I don't get what the criteria we're using now is to measure what's OP and what's not?  

 

When the game was last on live I pvp'd with my doms.  Total Focus had a great lengthy stun compared to all of the other controls, it was actually useful to slot it for mez, a bit too strong?  Sure maybe, but so is having to eat all of the damage you have to take to get off this mez without using another mez to catch up to them to use it or someone else mezzing your prey.  Or TK being completely null and void now as opposed to being able to hold off someone for a lengthy time.  Yes it was strong for stalkers to AS but ohly well.  

 

Great we want to fix really strong things on ATs that are already at a disadvantage, cool.  But how is it by the very build structure of some AT's that doesn't already make them by default OP?  Blasters already had a higher base hp and were supremely strong in pvp to begin with, then were given countermeasures and more hp...

 

If we're not now going to address blasters, defenders and all the other OP things by their very nature then why even bother addressing quirks to AT's that already are disadvantaged?  

 

Variety has been homogenized out of pvp with fixes to things that brought a little spice to the mix.  

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

6 hours ago, Super Atom said:

 

The PvPers do most of the balance changes themselves, with extensive testing. The base stuff likely wouldn't take more than a single dev looking into what is and is not possible in terms of just adding a way to flag the base as in pvp or not by using what was already there to do so and from there PvPers would just make their own content using the bases.

 

I don't disagree with you that as far as homecoming goes, huge PvP content updates would likely be a waste of resources due to numbers but to abandon it all together because a small amount of people do it doesn't seem necessary either.

 

plus they're all volunteers and likely get to choose what they feel like doing, so what we think matters little lol if one decides to help out pvpers nobody can really criticize them for it since they're volunteers anyway.

You know, actually you should of just used that last part as your entire argument, because that bit actually works fine for me, and I am gonna steal it for the future just FYI. The fact is you are 100% spot on there, the HC team are all doing this as a labor of love, so its very doubtful unless it is some emergency all hands on deck issue, that they get to choose what they spend most of their time on with the HC project. So if there is one or hell if by some madness the whole HC team wants to spend time, little or a lot on PVP well that is their call. I mean worst case you get a few like in this thread saying they would stop donating if such a focus became the new thing.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

3 hours ago, Super Atom said:

 

Oh yeah 100% even back in the day most people just wanted a level 50 version of warburg, not so much an entire open pvp world.

 

 

While this will be abit rambly if I may I will express my in my dreams changes to CoH including PVP which if I could just snap my fingers would be made balanced enough to be enjoyable.

 

For starters I would want as close to a full open world experience as possible I would do away with war walls, letting the zone changes be the entire border of maps.  This would be a must for the open world rp pvp pve I would love to see.  The biggest issue is that it would have to come at the cost of our current power over pve content, not nerfed exactly but altered, as in far more mobs would need to be at least Elite boss level, and the way we con to mobs would all have to be done in the way we currently do with GMs. This would make even so called trash in the low levels offer some modest threat to players of opposing factions.

 

Speaking of factions, this would become a new almost replacement for the alignment system, I would have players gain reputation with the various factions in game by working for or against them, with opposing factions making it impossible to be in both camps at once. This would impact safe areas and allied NPC critters and would come with instead of the old frankly uninspired alignment powers, summoned ally charges from the factions, which would be strong enough to be a threat to players, and help buff players against effects their given AT was weaker to.  Basically we would do away with one on one PVP in the sense of making sure it would always have a bit of pve in it as well and this would be how we would equalize ATs by giving them ally summons to have their backs.

 

We have talked about some kind of side kick summon pool for a while, and this too should be given consideration again, as one of the biggest issues a given player has in pvp is being alone and caught by a foe in an AT that negates their owns best abilities too well.

 

On top of all this I would remove the pvp bonuses from the pvp IOs entirely, and just make them normal IO sets. As always we dont want too much major power gap, So we would need the game to recognize gear score and treat those who prey on the weak and helpless in a negative way to discourage it. This could be as simple as making it so any allied factions of those who get ganked start actively ambushing the ganker for days or even weeks of play time to force them to stay logged off or in hiding.

 

I know I know crazy dreams.

[America's Angel]

10 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Stating that considering pvp niche in this game, and following that with a statement that server population was low, is a direct contradiction. PvP was always niche in CoH, proven by actual data that showed the miniscule pvp population, even on live, when compared to PvE.

 

Regardless of feelings nothing Is a simple fix, it would require considerable resources, which has an opportunity cost.

 

Contributions are not equivalent to a tax, should pvp become a significant resource allocation, I'll cease contributing. Funny how that works, eh? More whimsical is the point that if pvp should become world "flagged" and I had no choice but to witness it, I would quit and move on.

 

And no, you couldn't have my stuff 😜

 

The devs are volunteer hobbyists with no set amount of working hours per week. This isn't work to them, it's play.

 

Because of this, the "opportunity cost" of each change made to the game is not equal, because the dev team are volunteers who put in as many hours as they feel like, on whatever aspect of the game they feel like.

 

If a dev spends a week making PvP tweaks, that's not a week that would otherwise have been spent on buffing elec blast/AR/mercs/etc. That could have been a week that they would have otherwise just spent playing Minecraft, or watching Youtube, or reading, or chilling with friends. Because, again, this is a hobby they do in their spare time. It's not a job where they have a definitive number of hours to fill.

 

They don't answer to us.

Edited July 21, 2021 by America's Angel

[SwitchFade]

14 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

 

The devs are volunteer hobbyists with no set amount of working hours per week. This isn't work to them, it's play.

 

Because of this, the "opportunity cost" of each change made to the game is not equal, because the dev team are volunteers who put in as many hours as they feel like, on whatever aspect of the game they feel like.

 

If a dev spends a week making PvP tweaks, that's not a week that would otherwise have been spent on buffing elec blast/AR/mercs/etc. That could have been a week that they would have otherwise just spent playing Minecraft, or watching Youtube, or reading, or chilling with friends. Because, again, this is a hobby they do in their spare time. It's not a job where they have a definitive number of hours to fill.

 

They don't answer to us.

You're inferring I think they do answer to us, I was very explicit in stating that my contribution is exactly that, not a salary or a contingency. A decision to update a part of the game is fine, I was clear in saying that if major resources were dedicated, that comes at a cost, one which I do not condone and would be unwilling to contribute to, and that is 100% valid. Time spent doing that, when it would otherwise be spent on anything else, including PvE, is a cost.

[Super Atom]

 

1 hour ago, Llewellyn Blackwell said:

You know, actually you should of just used that last part as your entire argument, because that bit actually works fine for me, and I am gonna steal it for the future just FYI. The fact is you are 100% spot on there, the HC team are all doing this as a labor of love, so its very doubtful unless it is some emergency all hands on deck issue, that they get to choose what they spend most of their time on with the HC project. So if there is one or hell if by some madness the whole HC team wants to spend time, little or a lot on PVP well that is their call. I mean worst case you get a few like in this thread saying they would stop donating if such a focus became the new thing.

 

Yeah, It's a good way to approach Homecoming in general. The devs have lives, jobs, and obligations and only do updates when they can and it seems to things they find interesting / feel need addressing.

[Greycat]

10 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Apologies, but misguided information you're staying aside, pvp population was never "huge," when compared to PVE, as I have said. Please define your criteria for huge versus PvE, as I have said.

 

Further, hyperbole is probably not a great tactic for convincing anyone that any argument is relevant.

 

I would highly recommend against such derision if you want to be taken seriously.

 

I think there's a little cross-communication there.

 

1. No, the hardcore PVP community (as in, i am here primarily or only for PVP) was never huge in COH.

2. HOWEVER, the population seen in zones? While still not giant compared to what was going on in PVE, pre-i13, there would indeed be multiple teams worth of players in zone on a not-infrequent basis. Even on servers like Pinnacle and Victory, much less Freedom.

 

After I13, with the "powers behave this way in PVE, this way in PVP," on top of the growing "need a PVP build" thanks to IOs, not only turned off a good portion of the PVP community but made the barrier to entry for PVE-but-might-want-to-try-it casual players higher.... to where the zones, at least, were pretty much dead and there wasn't much "hey, anyone want to try arena?" going on, either, outside of the (afterwards) miniscule PVP community's events.

 

I don't think SA was saying "the PVP community was huge compared to the PVE community," but that it was many, many, MANY times greater than what it was - and that the people in there were a mix of ... let's say, more PVP-casual as well as the hardcore, versus just "primarily interested in PVP?" I would agree.

[Super Atom]

49 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

I think there's a little cross-communication there.

 

1. No, the hardcore PVP community (as in, i am here primarily or only for PVP) was never huge in COH.

2. HOWEVER, the population seen in zones? While still not giant compared to what was going on in PVE, pre-i13, there would indeed be multiple teams worth of players in zone on a not-infrequent basis. Even on servers like Pinnacle and Victory, much less Freedom.

 

After I13, with the "powers behave this way in PVE, this way in PVP," on top of the growing "need a PVP build" thanks to IOs, not only turned off a good portion of the PVP community but made the barrier to entry for PVE-but-might-want-to-try-it casual players higher.... to where the zones, at least, were pretty much dead and there wasn't much "hey, anyone want to try arena?" going on, either, outside of the (afterwards) miniscule PVP community's events.

 

I don't think SA was saying "the PVP community was huge compared to the PVE community," but that it was many, many, MANY times greater than what it was - and that the people in there were a mix of ... let's say, more PVP-casual as well as the hardcore, versus just "primarily interested in PVP?" I would agree.

 

I played on Guardian and it was very active PvP wise. Most people i knew in server PvP'd even if only casually in zones. We also had some of the larger test league teams and Guardian didn't even come close to PvP activity like Freedom/Virtue. My entire issue 4 to issue 13 experience was my server having every PvP zone including bloody bay full of people, after they got added. We had many dev hosted PvP tournaments where winners got a gold titles that lasted until the next tournament. PvP was a very large part of Guardian. I cannot speak for every server, but i do know Virtue/Freedom/Guardian had tons of PvP.

 

Side note and not entirely relevant, but i met my husband on city of heroes when we were both only 14 by joining a PvP SG. So PvP literally changed the course of my life lol

Edited July 21, 2021 by Super Atom

[SwitchFade]

7 hours ago, Super Atom said:

 

I played on Guardian and it was very active PvP wise. Most people i knew in server PvP'd even if only casually in zones. We also had some of the larger test league teams and Guardian didn't even come close to PvP activity like Freedom/Virtue. My entire issue 4 to issue 13 experience was my server having every PvP zone including bloody bay full of people, after they got added. We had many dev hosted PvP tournaments where winners got a gold titles that lasted until the next tournament. PvP was a very large part of Guardian. I cannot speak for every server, but i do know Virtue/Freedom/Guardian had tons of PvP.

 

Side note and not entirely relevant, but i met my husband on city of heroes when we were both only 14 by joining a PvP SG. So PvP literally changed the course of my life lol

Regardless of perceptions about how about how "huge" pvp participation was, the fact remains that pvp population was only ever a small fraction of the total player base, the actual numbers prove that. What's more, issue 4 did not have pvp zones, that was arena only. Issue 6 was when zones went live, so please be more pragmatic with the exaggeration when stating that "your entire experience from issue 4-13 was full zones," as this is technically impossible 😂

 

Issue 13 was a superb development for PvE, it assured that PvE would not again be affected by pvp considerations and pvp could be developed completely isolated from PvE, and left neatly secluded in separate zones where it never has to be witness, encountered or in the vicinity of anyone in PvE.

[arcane]

Yeah PvP was great here until i13 slaughtered it. It would still be bearable gameplay wise but so many were alienated that the community is too small to function. 

[Super Atom]

5 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Regardless of perceptions about how about how "huge" pvp participation was, the fact remains that pvp population was only ever a small fraction of the total player base, the actual numbers prove that. What's more, issue 4 did not have pvp zones, that was arena only. Issue 6 was when zones went live, so please be more pragmatic with the exaggeration when stating that "your entire experience from issue 4-13 was full zones," as this is technically impossible 😂

 

Issue 13 was a superb development for PvE, it assured that PvE would not again be affected by pvp considerations and pvp could be developed completely isolated from PvE, and left neatly secluded in separate zones where it never has to be witness, encountered or in the vicinity of anyone in PvE.

 

We're gonna add "Cant read" to your long list of short comings. It clearly states "every PvP zone including bloody bay full of people, after they got added. "

 

You continue to look like a biased clown making a point you can't prove and wouldn't even know since you didn't PvP and despite first hand accounts of PvP being active you continue to push a false narrative. Just give it up you toxic waste of time. I well and truly feel sad that you have so much hate in your heart over other people enjoying something, It's really sad.

Edited July 21, 2021 by Super Atom

[Glacier Peak]

5 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Regardless of perceptions about how about how "huge" pvp participation was, the fact remains that pvp population was only ever a small fraction of the total player base, the actual numbers prove that. 

Lets see those numbers @SwitchFade backing up your claim.

 

 

Also when you say: 

Quote

 What's more, issue 4 did not have pvp zones, that was arena only. Issue 6 was when zones went live, so please be more pragmatic with the exaggeration when stating that "your entire experience from issue 4-13 was full zones," as this is technically impossible 😂

 

@Super Atom actually said

Quote

2) The PvP player base from issue 4 to Issue 13 was enough to fill multiple PvP Zones. 

 

Since the PvP mechanics in this game began in Issue 4 (you've even said so yourself) and has continued well past Issue 13 the statement that the player base from Issue 4 until Issue 13 filling multiple PvP zones is not only plausible, but also literally correct. Pragmatism, you say?

[Super Atom]

Galaxy, Talos, and Peregrine had the Arena added to them. Those zones were constantly filled with people setting up teams and duels. These would also be considered "PvP Zones", though not Open PvP zones like Warburg/RV/Sirens/Bloody.

 

Just to be extra clear.

 

Also, It's important to note Issue 4 to Issue 6 was only 5 months. Issue 6 to issue 13 was 3 years. So nitpicking that there was no open zones for 5 months does not really do much.

 

also also, to be double extra clear. Nobody is saying PvP was larger or even near the same amount of people as PvE players. Only that PvP was not "small" it was a very active and well sized community until issue 13 when the numbers started to sink. That's just the strawman being used to support someones bias that PvP is bad.

 

"1) Comparing PvP to PvE players is stupid, PvP players are also PvE players. Comparing the size is a strawman argument which is the only thing you know how to do. "

Edited July 21, 2021 by Super Atom

[SwitchFade]

1 hour ago, Glacier Peak said:

Lets see those numbers @SwitchFade backing up your claim.

 

 

Also when you say: 

 

@Super Atom actually said

 

Since the PvP mechanics in this game began in Issue 4 (you've even said so yourself) and has continued well past Issue 13 the statement that the player base from Issue 4 until Issue 13 filling multiple PvP zones is not only plausible, but also literally correct. Pragmatism, you say?

Hmm hmm, sure, after it was edited. Glacier, the fact you've thrown in with someone who unabashedly resorts to name calling and personal attacks is quite surprising. Sad really, I thought better of you, to this point.

[Super Atom]

1 minute ago, SwitchFade said:

Hmm hmm, sure, after it was edited. Glacier, the fact you've thrown in with someone who unabashedly resorts to name calling and personal attacks is quite surprising. Sad really, I thought better of you, to this point.

 

None of my posts were edited after you replied to them. This is proven by time stamps.

 

Idk why you continue to lie when called out. I resort to name calling because all you've done is be toxic, make false accusations, and use strawman arguements to be dismissive.