Mastermind Attack powers - Please take a look at them - The endurance is painful

[plainguy]

I really would love if the Mastermind 3 attack powers could please be looked at. 
I have a few toons that are full pets and attacks and the use of the attack powers is completely and totally noticeable endurance wise..  There is just no way for a Mastermind to go full tilt on his attack powers. There is no "Scrapperlock" moments..  That endurance warning after a few attacks brings you back to reality pretty fast. 

 

There just has to be more to Masterminds then telling pets to attack here and there while you toss out some buffs and debuffs gingerly as to not anger the Endurance gods.. 

 

The attack powers are over the top endurance wise and the attacks are neutered.  I keep repeating this. Masterminds are paying more for less. 

Make them stack like the fighting pool maybe..  Each one benefits off the other.. 

I don't know the right answer but I know something is wrong.   I have enough level 50 toons all IOed out to just notice the difference. 

Every other AT is like 0 to 60 in 3 seconds and Masterminds are getting there in 10 seconds. 

Add in the pet issues that make them vulnerable for 10 seconds. This stuff is just compounding on each other.  
Again I get the uniqueness of them, but you need to tweak them. The endurance changes on summoning, I am sorry were useless. Its like giving a toothpick to a toothless person.  

I love the arch type and I enjoy making petless mastermind builds and such.  My Petless masterminds are much better equipped then my 6 pet mastermind.

 

But I wish someone could understand the frustration of just playing them sometimes.

For me it starts off with good intentions of creating the build and running the toon.

Then after a while between the resummoning and upgrading of pets in combat that give you about 10 seconds of dead air in which they can do nothing but die again. Then doing your attacks like a magician telling the mobs don't look over there, Look over here at the Pistol/whip/laser gun in my hand. Which doesn't work. Which in the end sometimes requires you to RESUMMON again the missing bots ( depending on the circumstances). 

Healing the pet sometimes just becomes pointless because you either using inspirations that you could have or should have used/saved for yourself.  End result it is almost best not to fight off the death because you are already using endurance to heal the pets if applicable which leaves you with less endurance when you need to resummon the pet.

 

Edited July 26, 2021 by plainguy

[tidge]

Can you provide more specificity about which primary and (more importantly to me) when in the build you are trying to take the attacks? Based on the text above, this doesn't sound like a no-henchmen Mastermind.

 

I have a couple of different MMs, and I don't bother taking primary attacks until late in the builds. I concentrate on the AoE attacks to generate/maintain "threat". My Robots/Traps MM can run his blue bar down... but it actually requires significant effort. I think that particular toon has each of his attacks 6-slotted; the attacks include Endurance reduction and/or give set bonuses relating to Endurance management (+MaxEnd, Endurance Discounts, +Recovery). Adding +MaxEnd from accolades will help.

 

The MM attacks are also pretty low on the damage scale, so it isn't as if spamming the attacks is helping that much... unless you are using the attacks to debuff or apply (soft) control. I suppose putting the %damage procs helps MMs "more" than other ATs, but I'm not sure this is really what you are looking for.

[Uun]

This is by design, although I no longer remember the rationale. All MM attacks and secondary powers use 25% more endurance than the same powers when used by other ATs. 

[arcane]

1 hour ago, Uun said:

This is by design, although I no longer remember the rationale. All MM attacks and secondary powers use 25% more endurance than the same powers when used by other ATs. 

My guess is it has something to do with MM’s already having a huge damage per endurance advantage since their pets are doing so much of the work.

Edited July 26, 2021 by arcane

[plainguy]

2 hours ago, arcane said:

My guess is it has something to do with MM’s already having a huge damage per endurance advantage since their pets are doing so much of the work.

First off do you play Masterminds ? Do you have any at level 50 ? 

 

You have some numbers on this huge damage compared to other Arch Types.. Mind you yes, I am sure Masterminds will do more damage then certain other builds on certain other Arch Types..  In a sense they were supposed to be the Tank for Red side. 

But your statement is false.. 

First off the Tier 1 pets are 2 levels lower then you( level 48 max).  There are countless threads on suggestion forums that bring up the issues of the Tier one pets and the lack luster damage they do.  That leaves you with 3 other pets. 

 

The Tier 2 are buffers with some damage..  So they are not all DPS as they have a buff in their attack cycle.  They are 1 levels Lower than you ( 49 Max)

The Tier 3 is equal level ( 50 max )

 

I do not know if incarnates level increase affects the pets, but I am pretty sure they don't. 

 

But let me point you to the homecoming wiki 

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Mastermind

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Scrapper

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Brute

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Tanker

 

Let me try Sentinel, everyone complains about their low DPS

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Sentinel

 

You know let see controllers..

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Controller - Ahh now we can see Masterminds slightly beat out Controllers in a DPS category. 

 

Yep you are right Huge Pet damage just beats out Controllers.. 

 

So lets continue with disproving your flippant statement. 

 

What happens when the pets die ?

What AT has to wait just about 10 seconds to get back into combat ? Simple Answer None..

 

Again if you play Masterminds, then you clearly know what I am talking about.. 

I am 1000% positive if we pick a mission and have all the AT run through it on a 8/3 setting Masterminds completion time will NOT be high up there..  The simple rule is Mastermind must have his full set of pets at all times..  The reality is, if you play a Mastermind then you know there are certain things you just accept.. EG one Tier one dropping off and just running around with 5 bots.. The time wasted to summon one bot and rebuff is just not worth it.
Again not because we are doing so much HUGE damage with our Tier one pets.. Its because the damage they do  between 2 and 3 pets is negligible.  

 

If they did such HUGE damage you would be seeing tons of farming post and outdoor city maps for Masterminds to run through specifically created for Masterminds, but you don't..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[arcane]

Your reply doesn’t seem to be about endurance or damage per unit of endurance at all, so not sure how it has anything to do with my point.

 

Yes I have three level 50 Masterminds and none have endurance problems.

[plainguy]

9 hours ago, tidge said:

Can you provide more specificity about which primary and (more importantly to me) when in the build you are trying to take the attacks? Based on the text above, this doesn't sound like a no-henchmen Mastermind.

 

I have a couple of different MMs, and I don't bother taking primary attacks until late in the builds. I concentrate on the AoE attacks to generate/maintain "threat". My Robots/Traps MM can run his blue bar down... but it actually requires significant effort. I think that particular toon has each of his attacks 6-slotted; the attacks include Endurance reduction and/or give set bonuses relating to Endurance management (+MaxEnd, Endurance Discounts, +Recovery). Adding +MaxEnd from accolades will help.

 

The MM attacks are also pretty low on the damage scale, so it isn't as if spamming the attacks is helping that much... unless you are using the attacks to debuff or apply (soft) control. I suppose putting the %damage procs helps MMs "more" than other ATs, but I'm not sure this is really what you are looking for.

I am talking level 50, IO Build. 

Rule of thumb which I follow and well versed in is 2 to 1 for endurance vs usage. Basically your recovery has to be 2 points above the usage.  I follow that all the time and make sure I am at or above this mark.  Sometimes Incarnates help push you above this as well. 

 

Robot is a prime example. That Photon Grenade attack is very noticeable endurance wise. 

 

But Playing Traps for example I am straight up Tankermind.. Lay down my traps and mine(s) provoke and keep going through the cycle.. I'm at 45% Positional Defense cap with IOs and then the bots add their 14% and then Incarnates add whatever based on what is picked.  Again that is my personal Robot Traps build. As you know everyone plays it different.  I notice more endurance drain issues when it gets really bad.. FFG drops ( I forget to rebuff or Gets aggro ), then the pets drop due to less defenses as FFG is gone. Then I am scrambling to regain control. 
 

 

4 hours ago, Uun said:

This is by design, although I no longer remember the rationale. All MM attacks and secondary powers use 25% more endurance than the same powers when used by other ATs. 

 

From what I recall when Masterminds first came out some initial numbers showed that their DPS was a bit high and they did this endurance thing to balance it out as a quick fix, which I get. But Endurance has ALWAYS been an issue for Masterminds even when the game was live and paid to play. 

But if you look at the Pistol attacks for Thugs you will see they clearly pay more for less. They do not get any of the buffs or debuffs for the gun attacks that others do. 

Not to get side tracked, but there should be a base cost formula, EG it should cost X endurance to create 1 DPS of damage. Then Benefit and Con to a power should add or subtract Endurance cost from the power. Then add on whatever endurance factor for each AT is needed.  Unfortunately I do not think this is the case here in this game. I think it is more where should this Arch Type be within all these other Arch Types. 

 

Having the following level 50 IO toons; Scrappers, Blaster, Corruptors, Brutes, Masterminds, Petless Masterminds, Semi-Petless Masterminds, Defenders, Sentinels, Controllers, Arachnos Soldier.  I can confidently say I am not feeling the Endurance drain on them and the fight is more fluid and exciting to some degree. 

Even using the NumKey Pad commands the Mastermind controls are still clunky to some degree. Sometimes you have to spam goto here a few times to make pets move and stay in a spot. Though the pet control changes are much, much better than they were before.. 

But I think as I mentioned originally it is the Resummoning of pets. The delay inherit in the summoning and buffing.

The vulnerability of the pets during this time in which they are defenseless and can get yet killed off again.. 

The Lack luster of the Tier 1 pets DPS..

Out of the Mastermind Secondary's I only see 3 that can be used without pets and still clear out mobs affectively, though slowly. 
Traps with Trip Mine, Trick Arrow with Oil Slick,  Storm with Lighting Storm. 

When you look at things like Dark Miasma Darkest Night cost of .65 endurance vs Corruptors .55, some might scoff at the .15 but all those .15 add up.. It is death by 1000 cuts.

If Masterminds were so powerful you would see players steam rolling through missions with them. Again there would be talk on the forums..  Those talks are on the Brute forums. 
Tell me what AT needs to run away in a mission to find a safe spot to re summon pets to continue playing ? Simple answer None.. 
If we want to get technical that running away is down time. There is a DPS loss no matter how you look at it.  
Why did they remove nukes that crashed your Endurance ? Because it wasn't fun. Perfect example is Nova on Blasters.

Who wants to use a power that is going drain your endurance and prevent endurance recovery for a short period of time you after you use it ? Not many.. It was the power used on the last fight on the map or even the first as long as you had room to run off or inspirations to cover you. Yes I know it can be used much more, but there was clearly a strategic process around using it which even including warning or telling the team you were using it NOT to waste it.. 

 

What happens is if you see it, eventually you start realizing these attack powers are not so much worth it. I would rather use the endurance if possible on some other power to keep my pets more alive.. You end up respecing out of your 1 to 3 attacks and just end up moving the pets around and commanding them to attack while you use what you have to keep the pets alive. It is no longer  you and the pets.. It just the pets with you pointing them to fight something. 

Mind you if the Pets did do HUGE DAMAGE as some are stating, then I would have no issue being a glass cannon.  

 

But with Masterminds so many things can go wrong.. It is either you do well or fail miserably, there just is no in between. 

[plainguy]

33 minutes ago, arcane said:

Your reply doesn’t seem to be about endurance or damage per unit of endurance at all, so not sure how it has anything to do with my point.

 

Yes I have three level 50 Masterminds and none have endurance problems.

Is this bizzaro world ?

 

I didn't mention anything about damage.. YOU DID.. 

I also have many 50 masterminds all of them don't have endurance issues. IF I go slow.. If I do a 3 count between powers.. If I look at my endurance bar and determine if an attack power is okay to use.. 

But YOU said Mastermind pets do HUGE damage this is why the endurance is not an issue.  
If Mastermind pets did do HUGE damage then it would be foolish of me to come and make a comment that I was do be able to do MORE HUGE damage or longer sustained Damage.. 

Again I a retorting back to your flippant comment.. 

 

Where is your proof of huge damage ?  Again show me anything.. 
I went to the wiki pages and showed you where this community as a whole thinks Mastermind DPS compared to other Arch Types..  

Do you think the Wiki is wrong ( not that a wiki page is end all be all ) ? Then go change it post you data there why you think that chart is wrong.. 

 

I'm sorry if you THOUGHT you were going to make up some stuff and then expect me or anyone else to just take it as fact.  
it is clear you don't expect to be challenged..

But I know, you will post another one liner and never bring any sort of facts to the table and then walk off. Like you showed me. You are too good to produce any sort of facts.. 

 

Mind you I don't mind a debate.. I don't mind saying Opps, I am wrong. I didn't realize this or that.. I am not too big to apologize. 

But conversely I'm not a pushover either.. 

On page 2 of the Proc thread I made a statement, 17 pages later some other posters did the math to prove what I simply stated 15 pages earlier. 20+ pages later someone went and created videos for the same thing. Am I gonna do the math ? No.. I am I gonna do the Videos ? No.. I am just doing some quick number juggling and looking at Mids and I get ball park numbers along with game play experience with various Arch Types.

I am not the first one to say endurance is an issue for masterminds.. It is clear the Devs know.. Because they made some changes and they clearly stated they would be looking some more.. 

My point is Squeaky wheel gets the grease.. 

If you don't complain about it then they think reducing endurance and recharge on pet summoning fixed it.. It didn't. 
Yea it is great because now my Robot Traps doesn't have to worry about dropping toggles when resummoning pets during a bad moment in game Or have to wait YET AGAIN to resummon pets that just got RE-killed while summoning and Buffing.. 

But Masterminds have attack powers, so they should be usable, just like any other AT powers.. We shouldn't have to calculate the cost effectiveness ratio of a power vs endurance during a fight. When some Range player just went from T1 to T9 and back to T1 in seconds.  

 

 

[arcane]

4 minutes ago, plainguy said:

But YOU said Mastermind pets do HUGE damage this is why the endurance is not an issue.  
 

I said they do huge DAMAGE PER ENDURANCE. Which is factually true. I said nothing about raw damage at all.

[plainguy]

4 hours ago, arcane said:

I said they do huge DAMAGE PER ENDURANCE. Which is factually true. I said nothing about raw damage at all.

LOL okay.. Not going to play this word soup with you. 

 

The Developers clearly made endurance and recharge changes to mastermind pet summoning. There was a reason behind that.  We all know why.  

The also mentioned they would review things further as well.

 

Look I have said a lot already on this above. 

 

It takes about 14 seconds and 51 endurance to summon and upgrade pets.

It took them coincidentally 14 seconds to kill a Death Mage and  I was able to do it in 8 seconds with 20 endurance with just Dual Pistol attacks and everything removed. Half is 25 at 7 seconds..  I have no issue with the 1 second more at 5 less endurance.  

Again this is a yellow con level 50 mob. 

 

The problem comes in when the Player actually wants to play instead of watching. Which I know sounds crazy right.  

 

Further this was just one mob. My pets could not handle 8/3 setting.  Even if I could isolate one group. There would be tons more summoning of dead pets which would up the endurance cost would would reduce your damage per endurance. 

 

Why? 

Because the higher the mobs the less the pets can do. The Tier 1 would be almost useless. 

More pets getting killed requiring re-summoning. 

So we both know your Damage per endurance would go up and your DPS would go down. 

Or do you not see that ?

 

But for game play reasons players complained and things were changed or added in.. EG KB to KD IOs..  Crashless Nukes.. 

 

Mastermind have to deal with 14 seconds of down time on a pet wipe.

Endurance cost is about 51 endurance and that with IO build with some endurance redux in it. Look at any other AT and see what you can do with 50 endurance. 

Pets do die and need to be resummoned constantly..

Pets can also be killed again during resummon. 

Masterminds are the lowest hit points and unless built specifically to not need pets they are useless without pets, because only 3 Secondary have DPS capabilities. 

Bodyguard mode is almost essential for many players, playing masterminds. 

They have the highest endurance cost. 

 

As I mentioned yet again above this is death by 1000 cuts.. 

 

You know if they said pets that died will just resummon in X amount of seconds no need to summon, buff or use endurance then I can see your point of damager per endurance. 

And that would go a long way because you are not spending X amount of endurance to resummon whatever tier pet and rebuffing.. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Galaxy Brain]

On the note of Dam/End, with the caveat that you *do* keep your pets alive encounter to encounter you can streeeeeetttccccchhhh that ~50 endurance incredibly far. 

[arcane]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

On the note of Dam/End, with the caveat that you *do* keep your pets alive encounter to encounter you can streeeeeetttccccchhhh that ~50 endurance incredibly far. 

Right, and if you actually had to resummon pets so often that normal attacks would be more endurance-efficient, your MM would be a total trainwreck. I don’t see what’s unreasonable about suggesting that maybe this endurance penalty exists because your 6 non-attack primary powers are as endurance-efficient as it gets.

 

I do wish they didn’t suck on the damage front but oh well. I don’t normally take them, though my Necro/Storm did snag Life Drain. My Bots/Cold prefers procced Infrigidate and Shark Jaws for attacks though.

Edited July 27, 2021 by arcane

[Galaxy Brain]

To break it down a bit more, lets look at Necromancy:

 

Summoning all the pets + upgrading them will cost 51.01 endurance.

 

Tallying all the damage they could deal to a single target if they all used their powers exactly once (and all hit, etc) within Supremacy range they will deal an average of: 1389.69 damage in a "complete" rotation

 

1389.69 / 51.01 = 27.25 damage per end

 

Blaster Nova = 27.72 end for 250.2 damage = 9.03 dpe

Blaster Sniper Blast = 14.35 end for 281.5 damage = 19.62 dpe

 

(all values unenhanced)

 

 

This all assumes the pets just get 1 attack off once each as well. Assuming again that you keep them alive for multiple rotations, that damage adds up FAST. If they each get off 2 rotations, that DPE value DOUBLES as you only paid "once".

 

 

Edit: One step further, lets compare apples to apples with the energy blaster and see what 51~ish End gets you:

 

T1+T2+T3+Snipe+Cone = 50.33 end for 639.32 damage, add in the defiance boosts since we added Supremacy and that is 855.41 total (no other enhancement)

 

855.41/50.33 = just about 17 DPE, still only about 60% of what the MM does at minimum!

 

Edited July 27, 2021 by Galaxy Brain

[Galaxy Brain]

Double post but w/e:

 

This all said, the MM personal attacks are in a *weird* spot given the pets are so, so much better that its worth more to let them fly and focus on secondary abilities...

[arcane]

I’m going to try to proc bomb the T5 and maybe T3 next time I revisit a Mastermind build. See if I can’t get the attacks to feel desirable.

[tidge]

Just repeating what I wrote above: If you are committed to being a MM with Henchmen, the targeted AoE attacks are probably best suited for %debuff (e.g. Annihilation) or some sort of control (e.g. Knockdown, Ragnarok is probably the default option if the Overwhelming Force piece is already given to a henchmen). This should speed up defeat times and help keep the henchmen alive longer.

[TheZag]

Feels like you are hoping for the player character MM to be as effective as any other AT and have the pets on top of that.  Its just not gonna happen.  The pets damage and endurance arent directly yours but you get to direct how they use it.  700 endurance is probably enough.

[TombTyrant]

The suggestion: Mastermind attacks could be a little cheaper.

The reality: Mastermind attacks are artificially inflated to balance the DPS on a class with multiple damage dealing pets out at all times.

The community response: How do you play your Mastermind? Here is how I play mine.

 

He's not asking for build advice. Or play advice. Or why you don't find the reality to be a problem. I'm sure we're all super awesome players who know how to run our class. That's a subject for the Mastermind AT forum. This is about the suggestion. Do you agree that the class would be more fun, or better balanced, if the attacks were made cheaper? Yes or no?

 

Now for my part, I say we have already had balance passes on the Mastermind to in part address endurance issues in the past. The suggestion above implies that they are not enough. 

 

For my part, I am inclined to agree, and I think the testimony here in this thread that the attacks aren't worth picking up at the level they unlock is indicative of a need for a balance pass to examine them. You really, I think, ideally, want each power to seem like an interesting choice for some build somewhere. Right now they feel like traps to late additions in most builds, depending on how spikey you are.

 

I'm not convinced that examining the end cost is the right fix, if endurance struggle is best for balance, or if it becomes unbalanced with the lack of need to reapply buffs, but I think we could take a look. In my mind, I think they should either do more damage or produce a stronger secondary effect if they are going to cost a boatload. But that is only my suggestion.

[JayboH]

It's not the attacks that are the problem really.  Pool attacks are ridiculously priced end-wise for example.

 

It's that the secondaries are needlessly expensive.

 

If you have, say, a corruptor or controller pushing their secondaries to keep a team alive while barely using their primary or not using their primary at all (yeah yeah, I know, bear with me) then why should masterminds be expected to do the same thing plus keep all their pets alive with their secondaries on top of it only that they have to spend way more endurance to do so?  Now one could say the pets are dealing damage and using debuffs and controls and heals, etc...  but as I said, even if it was even endurance the mastermind will be spending even more end to keep all their additional targets alive.  Typically in my experience corruptors and controllers don't bother trying to keep track of mastermind pet health.... and that's on top of the pets being lower level than you are and die easier than any other player even if they were at the same level.  That's not even taking into consideration how low damage say a mercenary mastermind brings to the table compared to most classes...

 

 

[chi1701]

21 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

To break it down a bit more, lets look at Necromancy:

 

Summoning all the pets + upgrading them will cost 51.01 endurance.

 

Tallying all the damage they could deal to a single target if they all used their powers exactly once (and all hit, etc) within Supremacy range they will deal an average of: 1389.69 damage in a "complete" rotation

 

1389.69 / 51.01 = 27.25 damage per end

 

Blaster Nova = 27.72 end for 250.2 damage = 9.03 dpe

Blaster Sniper Blast = 14.35 end for 281.5 damage = 19.62 dpe

 

(all values unenhanced)

 

 

This all assumes the pets just get 1 attack off once each as well. Assuming again that you keep them alive for multiple rotations, that damage adds up FAST. If they each get off 2 rotations, that DPE value DOUBLES as you only paid "once".

 

 

Edit: One step further, lets compare apples to apples with the energy blaster and see what 51~ish End gets you:

 

T1+T2+T3+Snipe+Cone = 50.33 end for 639.32 damage, add in the defiance boosts since we added Supremacy and that is 855.41 total (no other enhancement)

 

855.41/50.33 = just about 17 DPE, still only about 60% of what the MM does at minimum!

 

 

Thats a lot of endurance, for me with my build (with ios/without ios), zombie horde is 5.46/3.82, grave knight 9.62/4.78, lich 13.18/7.11and enchant undead 11.38 and dark empowerment 11.38 (didnt include ios since dont use to reduce end) which makes it  51.02 to 38.47. Compare to illusion phantom army 26/17.03, spectral terror 16.64/9.36 and phantasm 26/17.03 makes 68.64 to get pets out or 43.42. Makes illusion controler cost more endurance to summon their pets.

 

Phantom army lasts 1min, spectral fear lasts 45 seconds though invulnerable, if mm pets dont die, illusion will cost more endurance over a same period. 

[Galaxy Brain]

1 hour ago, chi1701 said:

Thats a lot of endurance

These were all base values 🙂

[arcane]

5 hours ago, JayboH said:

then why should masterminds be expected to do the same thing plus keep all their pets alive with their secondaries on top of it only that they have to spend way more endurance to do so? 

This is not a commentary on the endurance question specifically, but it’s a mistake to frame the pets as only a burden and not a massive asset. You can’t get an accurate look at MM balance without considering the incredible things MM’s get. Such as having effectively more HP than tankers or having insane AV killing single target damage potential.

[Apparition]

6 hours ago, JayboH said:

It's not the attacks that are the problem really.  Pool attacks are ridiculously priced end-wise for example.

 

It's that the secondaries are needlessly expensive.

 

If you have, say, a corruptor or controller pushing their secondaries to keep a team alive while barely using their primary or not using their primary at all (yeah yeah, I know, bear with me) then why should masterminds be expected to do the same thing plus keep all their pets alive with their secondaries on top of it only that they have to spend way more endurance to do so?  Now one could say the pets are dealing damage and using debuffs and controls and heals, etc...  but as I said, even if it was even endurance the mastermind will be spending even more end to keep all their additional targets alive.  Typically in my experience corruptors and controllers don't bother trying to keep track of mastermind pet health.... and that's on top of the pets being lower level than you are and die easier than any other player even if they were at the same level.  That's not even taking into consideration how low damage say a mercenary mastermind brings to the table compared to most classes...

 

 

 

 

A Corruptor or Controller not using his or her primary is effectively a second class Defender, and would be better off as Defenders.  A Mastermind not using his or her primary is effectively a second class Corruptor or Controller, and would be better off as Defenders.

 

Plainguy plays petless Masterminds.  That's great.  But he effectively chose to shoot himself in the foot and then tie one arm behind his back, and wants the Mastermind AT balanced to make that equal to the other ATs.  It doesn't work that way.  You have to look at the whole picture to properly balance an AT, and as a whole, the Mastermind is a pet AT.

[arcane]

29 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

 

A Corruptor or Controller not using his or her primary is effectively a second class Defender, and would be better off as Defenders.  A Mastermind not using his or her primary is effectively a second class Corruptor or Controller, and would be better off as Defenders.

 

Plainguy plays petless Masterminds.  That's great.  But he effectively chose to shoot himself in the foot and then tie one arm behind his back, and wants the Mastermind AT balanced to make that equal to the other ATs.  It doesn't work that way.  You have to look at the whole picture to properly balance an AT, and as a whole, the Mastermind is a pet AT.

Lol, I missed the original statement that he plays petless masterminds. Yeah, you don’t ask for buffs specifically to ungimp your own selfgimp. It doesn’t work like that.

 

If your interest is in the capabilities of a petless MM, you’ve already stepped outside the balance conversation.

Edited July 28, 2021 by arcane

[chi1701]

Im all for buffing masterminds, but not in terms of endurance. Would like to see pets get automatic aoe defence buff (applied in pve but inactive in pvp) to help their survivability, remove the upgrades and have them always active from level 1 and replace them with active buffs similiar to how world of warcraft hunters pet commands "your minions do x ability (based on pet) to make it more pet central. 1 command could be offensive and other defensive etc. Not a very descriptive idea but it something unique to class.