Another round of VEAT suggestions - Night Widow specific

[KaizenSoze]

To be clear, I love Night Widows, but I am not blind to their problems.

 

I ran a Night Widow from 1-50 on just IO and SOs. To see what it's like.

 

A little history, a Night Widow was I think my 3rd or 4th character I made on HC.

 

I picked it because supposedly had an inherit that helped with regen/recovery.

 

I was pretty new and didn't understand a lot about the current game, because I quit Live shortly after COV came out.

 

Leveling that NW was was a frustrating experience. So, much that I stopped playing VEATs for a year until folks showed how awesome Fortunatas were.

 

I wanted to see what it was like to level a NW from scratch with my much better understanding of the game.

 

Notes:

• Leveling is a painful mix of not enough end, recharge, and squishy-ness
  • Endurance
    • The inherit is under powered for the end needs of a Night Widow
      • I delayed Haste till 30 because I knew it would just run me out end
      • I had stamina three slotted with 25 IOs, later 50+ IOs
      • I put 1-2 end reducers in every attack
      • By 50 I had both end accolades
      • Tried to keep the SG recovery active
      • With all this I was constantly running close to empty in sustained combat unless there was end buffing
      • Even at 50 fully slotted, all accolades. I still need Ageless in sustained solo combat.
      • Suggestion: Massive increase to the recovery portion of the inherit
  • Recharge
    • Mental Training is great, auto 20% recharge
    • Pre Mental Training
      • I have hit this even con Boss mob with all my 4-6 attacks including P2W attacks, now I need to wait 2-3 sec before something recharges
      • Meantime the boss is crushing my HP, because my defense is not high enough on just IOs and SOs
        • Wait should I get Tough, wait I now have more end issues
    • Post Mental Training and/or Hasten
      • Now, I always have an attack, now where did my end go
    • Suggestion: Massive increase to the recovery portion of the inherit
  • Durability
    • Night Widows for a melee character are very squishy
    • VEATs need weaknesses, so I understand the low HP and low DDR
    • Scaling resists are awesome.. once you have set bonuses to take the sting out initial hit
      • Getting dropped from 100% to 5% in one +3 boss hit
      • On one Tin Mage I got 2 shot at level 51 by two 54 bosses. So, fast I didn't even have time to look at my inspiration bar
    • Maybe I should have taken tough.. well that causes more end issues
    • Suggestion: Add some minor un-enhanceable s/l resists, 5-10% to an existing power like Foresight or Indomitable Will
  • Specific powers
    • Mental Blast is weak, especially compared to Poison Dart
      • Both have fairly useless minor secondary effects
      • MB DPA 59
      • PD DPA 72
      • Trying to killing an Unstoppable Cyclops on an ITF with MB. *pink* *pink* *pink*...
      • Suggestion: Make the DPA equal with PD
    • Dart Burst could use a damage buff
      • Provide some low level AOE to allow more hit and run tactics against tough mobs
      • The -regen is useless, it's 25%
      • Suggestion: Buff the damage a little, widen the cone from 30 to 50, shorten the distance to compensate
    • Psychic Scream
      • Ah, this power. Instead of Shockwave, Night Widows get this mediocre power as their T9
      • DPA 67, 30 arc, a cast time of 2.67 seconds! At least the recharge is only 16 seconds
        • Compare to, Fortunata's Psychic Wail DPA 222, PBAOE, cast 1.97 seconds, 145 sec recharge
          • Slotting can reduce the recharge to ~35 secs
        • Scrapper's Shockwave, DPA 131, 90 arc, 1 sec cast time, 12 sec recharge
      • I still end up taking this power because it procs better and hits harder than Mental Blast

 

 

The diary of my experience:

 

Our previous fine discussions

 

Edited August 23, 2021 by KaizenSoze

[Razor Cure]

As an aside, I reckon ALL melee ATs should have a +recovery boost somewhere in their powersets. The difference between those with and without is night and day. That is (at least for me) leveling up with Basic lvl 25 IOs, the +recovery uniques slotted asap and end red in powers.

The +rec powers make playing up to 50 SO much better (like bio armour, with quite a few toggles, vs fire armour with 3, but no recovery boost). Yes, VEATs get +recovery, but it is apparently almost so little as to be pointless.

 

Look at the sustain powers for blasters. Blasters usually have minimal toggles, often toggles than weirdly cost NO endurance (maybe an epic shield, or leadership) and they ALL get a Sustain. Sure, blasters go nuts and attack constantly, but they can only attack as fast as powers recharge and activate. Melee on the other hand (especially brutes, scrappers and stalkers) want to attack constantly too..while having the constant end drain from multiple toggles.

 

 

[arcane]

16 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

As an aside, I reckon ALL melee ATs should have a +recovery boost somewhere in their powersets. The difference between those with and without is night and day. That is (at least for me) leveling up with Basic lvl 25 IOs, the +recovery uniques slotted asap and end red in powers.

No thanks, personally. Those sets (like all blasters) completely trivialize endurance and I think that should stay a pro/con item rather than a global power creep item.

 

It gives a little extra character to the different sets too. For instance, someone was recently observing how weak Ice’s DDR is, and I pointed out how things even out when you account for my Ice armor being able to use Ageless Radial while my SR and Shield are stuck with Ageless Core. Likewise, sets that would normally be overpowered, like Storm Summoning, are brought in line by their dependence in on great recovery. IOW endurance is relevant to the balance conversation, and we shouldn’t arbitrarily throw recovery all over the place. Unless you are ready to accept nerfs to all the sets you give new recovery tools to now. Like Dark Armor. Endurance is the only thing keeping that one in check.

 

All this being said, VEATS should get a boost to their inherent in some form because it’s currently the most negligible and pointless inherent.

Edited August 26, 2021 by arcane

[Vanden]

4 hours ago, arcane said:

All this being said, VEATS should get a boost to their inherent in some form because it’s currently the most negligible and pointless inherent.

 

By design. VEATs were designed not to rely on an inherent, which is why they get a token boost.

[KaizenSoze]

16 minutes ago, Vanden said:

 

By design. VEATs were designed not to rely on an inherent, which is why they get a token boost.

I believe you that someone said that, but it's the first time I have heard it. I would to love hear the reasoning behind it.

 

To me, it doesn't make any sense.

 

Why have an weak inherit? It's not like VEAT ATOs are stalker/scapper level good to make up for it.

 

The ATOs are definitely good, but not game changing.

 

A better inherit for VEATs would fix one of the design constraints. Right now you have to consider, recharge, endurance, resists, and maximize damage for a offensive AT with a 400% damage cap. While having the lowest melee hit point by 200-300. Peacebringers and Warshades have the same issues.

 

Fortunatas and Crabberminds can mostly can pull this off, just very expensive. I want Night Widows and Banes to get enough buffing to close the gap.

[Vanden]

40 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

Why have an weak inherit?

 

Because an inherent is expected. The playerbase had gotten it solidly into our heads that ATs should have inherents. The devs knew this after months of people clamoring for a Defender inherent, not because the AT was weak, but just because everyone else had one. So even though VEATs worked absolutely fine without some inherent that was shared across all four branches, they had to have one. So VEATs got a little thing to call their inherent power, just have have one.

[KaizenSoze]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

 

Because an inherent is expected. The playerbase had gotten it solidly into our heads that ATs should have inherents. The devs knew this after months of people clamoring for a Defender inherent, not because the AT was weak, but just because everyone else had one. So even though VEATs worked absolutely fine without some inherent that was shared across all four branches, they had to have one. So VEATs got a little thing to call their inherent power, just have have one.

Thank you for that bit of history.

 

I wish that was more obvious in the AT description. The wiki has the numbers, but the description implies more. As I said in the OP, that inherit is why I tried Widows out in the first place.

 

I still think in the current game meta the inherit could use a boost. My recent leveling experience was very enlightening about the weakness of Night Widows.

Edited August 26, 2021 by KaizenSoze

[Razor Cure]

10 hours ago, arcane said:

No thanks, personally. Those sets (like all blasters) completely trivialize endurance and I think that should stay a pro/con item rather than a global power creep item.

 

It gives a little extra character to the different sets too. For instance, someone was recently observing how weak Ice’s DDR is, and I pointed out how things even out when you account for my Ice armor being able to use Ageless Radial while my SR and Shield are stuck with Ageless Core. Likewise, sets that would normally be overpowered, like Storm Summoning, are brought in line by their dependence in on great recovery. IOW endurance is relevant to the balance conversation, and we shouldn’t arbitrarily throw recovery all over the place. Unless you are ready to accept nerfs to all the sets you give new recovery tools to now. Like Dark Armor. Endurance is the only thing keeping that one in check.

 

I see what you are saying. I do. And I totally AGREE that blasters all getting a Sustain was stupid.

But...it happened.

 

Also your argument that Ice Armour low DDR being offset be Ageless hardly means anything, since the game still is not balanced around IOs, let alone Incarnate powers. So Ice getting low ddr was just the old devs having NFI. ANd the fact that Ice has got a bit more DDR since Homecoming is sad..but hopefully its on the list.

 

Talkgni of Nerfs in trade for buffs..please, please point out where the blaster nerfs were, when every set got a sustain. Honestly, thats not a real question though, since as I said, I do agree those sustains weren't needed. But again..they did happen. And ARE a great quality of life tool for everyone not on IOs and incarnate powers. They hardly suddenly made blasters OP either.

 

A telling fact in how good +recovery is to melee ATs..Willpower, Bio, and Rad armour..all have +recovery. Bio and Rad have there's in tandem with other powers (not just like Quick Recovery) and I really cant see where those 2 sets got 'nerfed' to trade for that.

 

 

[Black Zot]

19 hours ago, Vanden said:

 

By design. VEATs were designed not to rely on an inherent, which is why they get a token boost.

 

The design failed miserably.

[tidge]

TL;DR The VEAT inherent is weak sauce, considering that everybody gets the Fitness Pool.

 

Many AT can make this complaint: When I was leveling up my VEATs, and while running HOT against large spawn sizes, Endurance was the largest source of grief for me.. and as with many characters it really only gets better with Enhancement set bonuses and Accolades... just as with everybody else. Would it be the end of the world if the VEAT got a straight +MaxEnd inherent instead of +Regen/+Recovery? Such a thing wouldn't make them "obviously better at ____" than any other AT.

[arcane]

21 hours ago, Vanden said:

 

By design. VEATs were designed not to rely on an inherent, which is why they get a token boost.

Well they may be plenty good as is (my experience says they’re awesome as is, yes) but IMO it would even still look better if they just moved something VEAT’s can already do into their inherent and call it a day - because the people like inherents.

 

Doesn’t even need more recovery/regeneration, just ANYTHING that makes its inherent even NOTICEABLE.

Edited August 27, 2021 by arcane

[arcane]

2 hours ago, Black Zot said:

 

The design failed miserably.

Seems a little exaggerated

[skoryy]

2 hours ago, arcane said:

Seems a little exaggerated

 

Well...

 

[GraspingVileTerror]

Here's a left-field kind of idea:

 

Keep the Auto portion of Conditioning as-is, but make the Power a Click which grants 1 Medium Inspiration on a 10 minute timer with no reduction from Global Recharge.

Bonus points:  Make it work even while Defeated, so there's a random chance someone can get themself a Wakie as an Arachnos Archetype character.

 

Not game breaking, but it definitely has a fairly unique bit of dramatic flair.  Just like how Inner Inspiration is billed as the Natural Prestige Power, Conditioning spitting out Inspirations on command could imply that these disciplined soldiers and assassins contend with meta-powered threats by looking deep within themselves and finding strength to persevere against the supernatural.

 

*shrugs*

I mean, I don't generally use Inspirations, personally, so I'd certainly prefer something more interesting than this for my Soldiers and Widows.  But I'm not sure what else is both thematically appropriate and straddles that line between so-weak-it's-pointless and overpowered.

[KaizenSoze]

19 minutes ago, skoryy said:

 

Well...

 

One of my hopes when they do another ATs usage report. Is that they break out the Night Widows, Fortunata, Banes, and Crabs.

 

I suspect that Crabs are a huge percentage of Arachnos Soliders in comparison to Banes at 50.

 

No idea, what the break down between Night Widows vs Fortunatas.

Edited August 27, 2021 by KaizenSoze

[arcane]

24 minutes ago, skoryy said:

 

Well...

 

All of the EAT’s are down there for a perfectly legitimate reason completely unrelated to balance. You need a grand total of one of each EAT to experience everything possible within that EAT. You need hundreds of other AT’s to do the same. If you broke this down to powerset combos instead of AT, EATs would actually be at the top of the list, but again, that would mean absolutely nothing relevant to balance.

 

TL;DR graph literally does not support your point.

Edited August 27, 2021 by arcane

[KaizenSoze]

3 hours ago, tidge said:

TL;DR The VEAT inherent is weak sauce, considering that everybody gets the Fitness Pool.

 

Many AT can make this complaint: When I was leveling up my VEATs, and while running HOT against large spawn sizes, Endurance was the largest source of grief for me.. and as with many characters it really only gets better with Enhancement set bonuses and Accolades... just as with everybody else. Would it be the end of the world if the VEAT got a straight +MaxEnd inherent instead of +Regen/+Recovery? Such a thing wouldn't make them "obviously better at ____" than any other AT.

This is a great idea. Would solve do many issues w/o causing any balance issues. Would work nice with accolades.

 

I mean really who is going to say, I am not playing this non-VEAT AT any more because VEATs got an end buff.

[tidge]

14 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

This is a great idea. Would solve do many issues w/o causing any balance issues. Would work nice with accolades.

 

I mean really who is going to say, I am not playing this non-VEAT AT any more because VEATs got an end buff.

 

Thanks for the kind words. I focused on MaxEnd because:

• IIRC, there already is a cap on Recovery
• Players 'spend' the blue bar (i.e. Endurance) via powers of choice, Health is spent by (random) circumstance.
• Health "expenses" (i.e. the green bar) can already be "managed" via power choices in the VEAT (or bonuses, like everybody else)
• I see chasing Recovery and Regeneration (at least for low HP AT) as a sort of 'case of diminishing returns'. YMMV on this point, but for my $0.02 after a certain point on many builds MOAR Recovery is not noticeable.

[Razor Cure]

Max End seems like a neat idea. Since no other AT gets it.

Also, I always felt it was totally stupid that things like health and power damage get better as you level higher, but we NEVER get more endurance. Never. Surely a level 50 of anything would have gained a somewhat larger pool of endurance along the way.

[Vanden]

14 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

Max End seems like a neat idea. Since no other AT gets it.

 

No other AT gets higher base Regen or Recovery, either

[Doomguide2005]

On 8/28/2021 at 6:59 AM, tidge said:

 

Thanks for the kind words. I focused on MaxEnd because:

• IIRC, there already is a cap on Recovery
• Players 'spend' the blue bar (i.e. Endurance) via powers of choice, Health is spent by (random) circumstance.
• Health "expenses" (i.e. the green bar) can already be "managed" via power choices in the VEAT (or bonuses, like everybody else)
• I see chasing Recovery and Regeneration (at least for low HP AT) as a sort of 'case of diminishing returns'. YMMV on this point, but for my $0.02 after a certain point on many builds MOAR Recovery is not noticeable.

     I think your last bullet point is very much on point when concerned with Recovery specifically.  The difference between "I'm sucking wind constantly and can attack all out while fighting Clockwork" is a small amount.  The exact amounts vary depending on build, AT etc. but it's still rather narrow band compared to the upper limit.  

     The actual upper limit is, like many of the game's limits, well beyond character needs 99.99% of the time.  The lack of relevancy (of the limit) is why an Empath, for example,  really has no need to use Endmod in Recovery Aura.  It's base buff of 200% is already a massive boost to recovery.  Stamina by comparison is 25%.  Miracle+Numina's+enhancement won't even hit 100% and while it's not swimming in end recovery it is sufficient for many.

 

Edited August 31, 2021 by Doomguide2005
Typos

[tidge]

2 hours ago, Vanden said:

 

No other AT gets higher base Regen or Recovery, either

 

Except the ones that take the Fitness pool.

[Vanden]

3 hours ago, tidge said:

Except the ones that take the Fitness pool.

 

No, those are buffs that increase off the base. Only VEATs have higher base to begin with.

[Razor Cure]

6 hours ago, Vanden said:

No other AT gets higher base Regen or Recovery, either

What? That is their Inherent. It isn't their base regen or rec at all.

If it was their base (ie, without ANY other factors), then wouldn't (or shouldn't) their actual Inherent be something else?

 

 

[Vanden]

11 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

If it was their base (ie, without ANY other factors), then wouldn't (or shouldn't) their actual Inherent be something else?

Speak of the devil, it’s the exact attitude that led to VEATs having a smoke-and-mirrors inherent in the first place.