What's the value of Infiltration?

[oedipus_tex]

1 hour ago, Zhym said:

Hm.  You got me curious, so I logged in to my character with Athletic Run (which AFAIK is Ninja Run without the potential lower back problems later in life), Stealth, and Infiltration to see how they stack.

 

This is at level 43:

 

Active Power(s)	Running	Jumping	Max Jump
None	21.86	38.94	13.14
Sprint	36.18	38.94	13.54
Athletic Run	41.90	58.55	40.94
Infiltration	43.91	60.51	43.72
Athletic Run + Infiltration	43.91	60.51	43.72
Athletic Run + Sprint	56.22	58.55	41.34
Infiltration + Sprint	58.23	60.51	44.12
Athletic Run + Infiltration + Sprint	58.23	60.51	44.12

 

So unenhanced Infiltration is slightly faster than Athletic Run, but it doesn't stack.   It'd be great if it did, but I think the above sounds more like what the travel pool changes were supposed to do. 

 

 

 

Yep it appears I was wrong. The travel speed doesn't stack as noted above. I corrected my post. Thanks for looking into it. 🙂

[siolfir]

3 hours ago, Luminara said:

Combat Jumping isn't a travel power.

Based on how it behaves compared with other stealth-granting powers, neither is Infiltration. Travel powers that offer stealth (see: Super Speed) are not mutually exclusive with other stealth powers and the PvE stealth radius stacks.

 

The fact that Infiltration does not behave this way is, in my opinion, completely daft. It's treated as a primary stealth power when it's inconvenient for the player (mutual exclusivity), and a primary travel power when it's inconvenient for the player (it has suppression and it replaces or is replaced by run/jump speed instead of stacking speeds).

Edited August 31, 2021 by siolfir

[Glacier Peak]

9 minutes ago, siolfir said:

Based on how it behaves compared with other stealth-granting powers, neither is Infiltration. Travel powers that offer stealth (see: Super Speed) are not mutually exclusive with other stealth powers and the PvE stealth radius stacks.

 

The fact that Infiltration does not behave this way is, in my opinion, completely daft. It's treated as a primary stealth power when it's inconvenient for the player (mutual exclusivity), and a primary travel power when it's inconvenient for the player (it has suppression and it replaces or is replaced by run/jump speed instead of stacking speeds).

Just so that it is clear to everyone, Infiltration is a travel power. The Homecoming team that created it labeled it as a travel power, so it's a travel power. 

 

Quote

Pool Powerset Update: Concealment

• Concealment has been updated to include a new sneaky & versatile travel power: Infiltration
  • Concealment is now classed as a travel pool - the first 3 powers in the pool are available immediately instead of just the first 2
  • Invisibility and Stealth have been merged together, the best parts of both powers are now available with just Stealth
  • Infiltration now sits where Invisibility used to be in the T3 slot

 

Edited August 31, 2021 by Glacier Peak
word order

[siolfir]

4 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Just so everyone is clear, Infiltration is a travel power. The Homecoming team that created it labeled it as a travel power, so it's a travel power. 

 

 

I'm aware that they call it a travel power, but they also treat it like a primarily stealth power - because it's the only travel power that doesn't work with powers that grant stealth.

 

Which makes it fairly useless as a travel power, since you have to have another travel power with it if you run any of a number of powersets. Thus my comment about it being a daft (aka stupid) decision. If you're going to call it a travel power, treat it like one. And not just like one when it hurts the player.

Edited August 31, 2021 by siolfir

[ZemX]

41 minutes ago, siolfir said:

Thus my comment about it being a daft (aka stupid) decision.

 

Did they actually make this decision or did they just forget to remove the exclusion from Invisibility when they put Infiltration in its place? Because Invisibility used to be exclusive with other self-affecting stealth powers.

 

I haven't read back through BOTH of the focused feedback threads (just some of them)  to find out if this has been asked and answered before but yeah, it doesn't seem to make sense why this power is exclusive with stealth powers and SS is not.  

[Luminara]

37 minutes ago, siolfir said:

Based on how it behaves compared with other stealth-granting powers, neither is Infiltration. Travel powers that offer stealth (see: Super Speed) are not mutually exclusive with other stealth powers and the PvE stealth radius stacks.

 

Other than Super Speed and Infiltration, which travel powers include a stealth component?

Answer: none.

 

To say, then, that travel powers (plural) with a stealth component have created an expectation of non-exclusivity with Stealth/Hide/Energy Cloak/similar powers implies that multiple examples of these types of powers exist and that they all follow a pre-defined rule.  This is clearly untrue.  No pre-existing trend laid down any expectation that any travel power with a stealth component had to be stackable with Stealth, or Hide, or Energy Cloak, or what have you, because one power does not and cannot indicate a trend, a rule, or even a reasonable expectation of similarity.

 

Infiltration is not Super Speed.  Nor does it need to be.  If anything, Super Speed should remain the only travel power with a stackable stealth component as incentive to take it.  God knows, it's got shit else going for it (unless one enjoys face-fucking walls and being stuck on 1' terrain variations, in which case, Super Speed is probably orgasmic).

 

1 hour ago, siolfir said:

The fact that Infiltration does not behave this way is, in my opinion, completely daft.

 

Daft is expecting any two different powers to behave identically simply because they have some similarities.

[Glacier Peak]

2 hours ago, siolfir said:

I'm aware that they call it a travel power, but they also treat it like a primarily stealth power - because it's the only travel power that doesn't work with powers that grant stealth.

 

Which makes it fairly useless as a travel power, since you have to have another travel power with it if you run any of a number of powersets. Thus my comment about it being a daft (aka stupid) decision. If you're going to call it a travel power, treat it like one. And not just like one when it hurts the player.

It IS a travel power. Period. Full stop. That is how it is classified in the game by the volunteers how created the power.

 

Infiltration via COD

 

Since the quote above is your opinion, you're empowered to say it is not a travel power, in fact more power to you, all good - you could even call it a duck or a car tire... but for everyone else who doesn't live in your fantasy world, Infiltration is a travel power in this game. It's movement bonus (running and leaping speeds) can be enhanced, just like the other travel powers. It also provides the added benefit of concealment (so your point about a travel power not working with other stealth powers is odd), and can accept defensive set IOs. These are not my opinions, this is reality. Go try it out, it works well for players who enjoy using it on ninja-themed characters or for players who want another LoTG mule power.

Edited August 31, 2021 by Glacier Peak
your to you're

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, siolfir said:

you have to have another travel power with it if you run any of a number of powersets.

 

/bind <key> "powexecname Infiltration$$powexecname <stealth power>"

[Blackbird71]

57 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

Other than Super Speed and Infiltration, which travel powers include a stealth component?

Answer: none.

 

 

Quantum Flight?

I don't know whether it stacks, but it does have a stealth component.

Edited August 31, 2021 by Blackbird71

[tidge]

Dear Devs... please don't add a "travel power" to the Presence Pool, even to replace Pacify.

[Biff Pow]

11 minutes ago, tidge said:

Dear Devs... please don't add a "travel power" to the Presence Pool, even to replace Pacify.

 

New Presence Pool travel power: "Where'd they go?"

 

It's a teleport but only works when no one is looking.

[ZorkNemesis]

5 hours ago, Supertanker said:

 

New Presence Pool travel power: "Where'd they go?"

 

It's a teleport but only works when no one is looking.

 

Actually, a combination smoke bomb teleport-placcate sounds neat, but probably not for the Presence pool.

[Shred Monkey]

I take it on almost every toon, now.  BUT, I didn't take full travel powers before and used athletic/ninja/beast run which ideally I leave on full time.    Compared to ninja run, infiltration is identical in endurance and speed, but it can be slotted.  I put a hami-O in it and it's now enhanced for Run/Jump/EndRed.  If I have a spare slot, it can also hold a defense unique.  I frequently have several defense mules anyway holding a LoTG globals, so I swap out one of those powers for infiltration and find a spare slot somewhere else.  Now I'm running/jumping faster and burning less endurance than before at the cost of 1 slot.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 1, 2021 by Shred Monkey

[Luminara]

12 hours ago, Blackbird71 said:

 

Quantum Flight?

I don't know whether it stacks, but it does have a stealth component.

 

It has Intangibility.  That's not the same as having a stealth component, though Intangibility does, indeed, have a stealth component.  And I don't mean that in the pedantic twat way (which i am), I mean it's functionally different.  The 30s up/30s down limit on the Intangibility duration is, by itself, sufficient to disqualify it for comparison, since that would mean it only qualifies as a "travel power with a stealth component" sporadically.  The 20' StealthRadius is also a flavor effect rather than an intentional use effect, given that being slightly more difficult to see but not as difficult to see as someone with a Stealth IO (30' StealthRadius) or Super Speed/Infiltration (35' StealthRadius) is of limited to no actual value when one is, you know, immune to all damage while Intangibility, and thus the stealth component, is active.

 

It's just not applicable in this context.

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, Shred Monkey said:

Compared to ninja run, infiltration is identical in endurance and speed

 

Infiltration is 10% faster and has a lower endurance cost (0.46 Infiltration versus 0.57 Ninja Run).

[Lines]

I like it. I'm really pleased that there's a slottable natural-themed travel power. And I most certainly use it for travelling. I also use the keybind Lumi posted and have a habit of pressing the T key to switch between combat and travel powers on all my characters, so the toggle exclusivity is a non-issue for me.

 

I tried and failed to locate the discussion, but I remember that removing the stealth power exclusivity was something that the devs wanted to do but technically couldn't. So it wasn't that they forgot or thought it was better without. Stealth as a function would need to be reworked for them to be able to stack in the way movement speeds stack.

 

Since it doesn't specialise in any one of its functions, it's far from a min-max choice. But then so are most pool powers. I appreciate the extra flavour.

Edited September 1, 2021 by Lines

[Blackbird71]

34 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

It has Intangibility.  That's not the same as having a stealth component, though Intangibility does, indeed, have a stealth component.  And I don't mean that in the pedantic twat way (which i am), I mean it's functionally different.  The 30s up/30s down limit on the Intangibility duration is, by itself, sufficient to disqualify it for comparison, since that would mean it only qualifies as a "travel power with a stealth component" sporadically.  The 20' StealthRadius is also a flavor effect rather than an intentional use effect, given that being slightly more difficult to see but not as difficult to see as someone with a Stealth IO (30' StealthRadius) or Super Speed/Infiltration (35' StealthRadius) is of limited to no actual value when one is, you know, immune to all damage while Intangibility, and thus the stealth component, is active.

 

It's just not applicable in this context.

 

That's really splitting hairs on your initial qualification of just having a stealth component.  Yes, it's not an always on stealth component, but neither is Infiltration's.  

 

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Luminous_Aura#Quantum_Flight

"Quantum Flight offers greater flight speed and some stealth, but costs more endurance." 

 

That "some stealth" is 20ft, so yes, there is a stealth component, and yes, you are being pedantic.  You're also shifting the goal posts after your stated requirement.  You asked for another travel power with a stealth component, and Quantum Flight meets that criteria.  Redefining the argument to suit your point is disingenuous.

[Shred Monkey]

40 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

Infiltration is 10% faster and has a lower endurance cost (0.46 Infiltration versus 0.57 Ninja Run).

Even better than.  Did that change?  Because I swear when I checked it originally it was identical.

[siolfir]

15 hours ago, Luminara said:

Other than Super Speed and Infiltration, which travel powers include a stealth component?

Answer: none.

Answer: all of them that have a Stealth IO slotted. Because every travel power that takes either Jump, Run, or Teleport sets can be used for stealth. Is it technically a separate power providing stealth because it's through an IO set bonus? Yes. Does it affect how you can use the power? No. Does it align with the pre-existing example of Super Speed? Yes. So that makes more than one data point for, and only a stupid decision that prevents you from using the power with other forms of stealth against.

 

I'm aware I'm arguing against their definition of what a travel power is, and I'm aware that they could have removed the exclusivity (it was brought up in the focused feedback threads). They made up some excuse about how they didn't know how it should behave when there are clear examples.

 

15 hours ago, Luminara said:

Daft is expecting any two different powers to behave identically simply because they have some similarities.

Except that's not what I'm doing, while you're ignoring the precedents to defend a decision to create a travel power that doesn't work as a travel power when you are using a stealth power - which happens to be the only one in the game that behaves that way. 

Edited September 1, 2021 by siolfir

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, Blackbird71 said:

 

That's really splitting hairs on your initial qualification of just having a stealth component.  Yes, it's not an always on stealth component, but neither is Infiltration's.

You telling me that I lack objectivity when you're picking that goal post up and setting it back down in a baseball diamond in another time zone is hilarious.  You're seriously comparing normal stealth suppression conditionals to Intangibility's "Fuck you, no player agency for you" rule.

 

'K.

[Luminara]

2 hours ago, Shred Monkey said:

Even better than.  Did that change?  Because I swear when I checked it originally it was identical.

 Second build of the beta?  Third, maybe?  I don't remember which.

 

About three weeks after Page 2 went live.

 

 

Edited September 1, 2021 by Luminara

[Blackbird71]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

You telling me that I lack objectivity when you're picking that goal post up and setting it back down in a baseball diamond in another time zone is hilarious.  You're seriously comparing normal stealth suppression conditionals to Intangibility's "Fuck you, no player agency for you" rule.

 

'K.

 

 

Excuse me?  You set the goal posts:

 

17 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

Other than Super Speed and Infiltration, which travel powers include a stealth component?

 

 

As previously noted:

 

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Luminous_Aura#Quantum_Flight

"Quantum Flight offers greater flight speed and some stealth, but costs more endurance."

 

Quantum Flight has 20ft stealth, and is a travel power, therefore it is a travel power which includes a stealth component.  That's the criteria you set out.  I didn't move or change anything; you're just upset that your unilateral answer got called out.

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, siolfir said:

Answer: all of them that have a Stealth IO slotted.

 

Irrelevant and deliberately obfuscating.  You can slot a Stealth IO in Sprint, that doesn't make Sprint a travel power with a stealth component.  You can slot a damage proc in Brawl, but I don't see any pitching a hissy over the fact that Brawl can't one-shot critters the way Energy Transfer can.  You're deliberately adding variables to justify an unreasonable expectation as reasonable.

 

Infiltration not stacking with a toggle Stealth power doesn't make it unusable, or inferior, and your argument doesn't carry additional weight when you add IOs to powers and point to the combined effect.  You'd consider it ludicrous to argue that all powers in sets without -Def need a damage buff to compensate for lack of access to the Achilles' Heel -Res proc, wouldn't you?  I would, yet you point to the Stealth IO and act as though that provides undeniable proof that powers "should" work in any specific way.  I find it extremely difficult to take that as a serious complaint.  I have no doubt that the HC team is no more convinced than I am.

 

1 hour ago, siolfir said:

I'm aware I'm arguing against their definition of what a travel power is, and I'm aware that they could have removed the exclusivity (it was brought up in the focused feedback threads). They made up some excuse about how they didn't know how it should behave when there are clear examples.

 

Are you deliberately portraying them as malicious, or are you misremembering what was said?
 

 

They didn't make up an excuse, they didn't say it was too complex,, they never said anything about not knowing "how it should behave", they simply said the release was taking too long, they needed to move forward and they'd consider revisiting the issue later.

 

"In a future update, we might look at doing something similar for stealth powers, but that's beyond the scope of this update".

 

If you're dying of a terminal illness and this is the one thing you most want to see before you pass, then yes, I agree, they should make all haste and get this done (me, i'd want to see a whale shark up close, or have sex one more time, or pet a mountain lion, but whatever).  If you aren't, then you can show a little patience, and respect for the people doing this, and use the key bind I posted earlier in the interim.

[ZemX]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

they simply said the release was taking too long, they needed to move forward and they'd consider revisiting the issue later.

 

Yeah, I think people can put down the torches and pitchforks.  If they do revisit this, I have little doubt they will remove the exclusion from Infiltration since it is no longer primarily a stealth power.  It is primarily a travel power with a stealth component, just like SS or any other power with a Stealth  IO.

 

Per ParagonWiki, here's how it used to work (emphasis mine):

Quote

 

Stacking Stealth
All stealth powers stack with one exception: Toggle powers whose primary purpose is stealth.

So, for example, if a character has Stealth from the Concealment Power Pool toggled on, and then toggle on Shadow Fall, then Concealment's Stealth will automatically toggle off. This is because both powers have a main focus of granting stealth radius.

This does not include powers which have a bonus stealth component, such as Super Speed or a a Stealth IO. So, for example, if a character has Concealment's Stealth toggled on (35 feet of Stealth in PvE) and then turns on Super Speed (35 feet) and turns on Sprint with a Stealth IO slotted into it (30 feet), then all three will remain on, for 100 feet of total stealth radius.

 

 

The only thing that needs to happen here is removing Infiltration from the exclusion group called "Stealth_Group".  This is what makes these powers toggle each other off when they are activated.  Since Invisibility's stealth strength was moved into Stealth and replaced by the lesser 36ft StealthRadius, it is functionally the same type of power now as Super Speed.  i.e. Travel power with secondary stealth effect.  It is not primarily a stealth power and should not exclude other primary stealth powers.

 

Edit: Removed the entire paragraph about stacking Infiltration because I just noticed it also has the "highest value suppresses others" tag, which means it doesn't stack with the StealthRadius of SS.  Quantum Flight however, does stack stealth.

Edited September 1, 2021 by ZemX

[siolfir]

21 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Infiltration not stacking with a toggle Stealth power doesn't make it unusable, or inferior

Actually, because it cannot be used at the same time as many primary, secondary, and pool powers - which is what the complaint is actually about (not about the stealth level stacking, although that's related, is why I brought up the stealth IOs stacking stealth, and is ostensibly the reason why the powers are mutually exclusive) - it is explicitly unusable with those powers active. The fact that it costs you defense and/or resistance while in use (due to being mutually exclusive with powers that provide the defense and/or resistance) makes it objectively inferior to anyone not wearing "the devs can do no wrong" blinders. Yes, they're volunteers, but that doesn't make every decision they make above reproach.

 

31 minutes ago, Luminara said:

They didn't make up an excuse, they didn't say it was too complex,, they never said anything about not knowing "how it should behave", they simply said the release was taking too long, they needed to move forward and they'd consider revisiting the issue later.

The quote you provided - which was on page 3 of a 38 page thread that had several additional patches implemented that could have easily incorporated a change to the stacking - actually uses the wording "due to the complexity of implementation and testing," but I wasn't thinking of that reply and didn't find it in that feedback thread with a quick search, so my memory probably messed it up. There was another one - apparently in another thread(?), since just finished skimming through that one - that I thought talked about how they weren't sure how they wanted the stealth radius to behave, and wasn't by Captain Powerhouse (I think it was Jimmy). But I'd rather just concede the point and say that my memory is shot than go through the hassle of trying to find a 5+ month old post to see if my memory was right about something I don't care enough about. Yay, you got me. I might have unintentionally exaggerated something on an internet forum and am too lazy to do more to follow up on it. Good job, you. Your parents must be proud. All this conversation has done is to remind me why I stopped coming to the forums for a few months. The hyperbole and fanaticism is rarely entertaining anymore.

 

They could honestly remove the stealth radius from the power entirely (while some idiots cry about the mythical cottage rule because it used to have stealth), allow it to be used in power combinations that every other travel power in the game can be used, and the power would be more useful (and called Free Running - I did find that post where Jimmy said the stealth would likely be the differentiator between those powers). But hey, if you love it, you do you. It's a middle-ground not-really-travel-not-really-stealth power that has the restrictions of both of those categories, meaning I'll never take it with a Widow, Soldier, any character with Energy Aura, Dark Armor, Dark Miasma/Affinity, Storm Summoning, Cold Domination, Ice Control, and probably other sets I'm not thinking of off the top of my head because again, I've already put too much effort into this for a power that I could care less even exists until it gets changed to be useful.