What's the value of Infiltration?

[Zhym]

Could someone please explain to me what the value of Infiltration is (or is supposed to be)?  It seems like it has worse stealth than Stealth while granting the same run and jump boost as Athletic Run.  Is there any benefit to it that you don't get from Stealth + Athletic Run, which can be toggled on at the same time?  Or am I missing something?

 

I'm not trying to be sarcastic or start an argument—I really don't see what role Infiltration is supposed to fill (other than as a LoTG mule).  

 

Thanks!

Edited August 31, 2021 by Zhym

[aethereal]

Well, it's slottable, so you can make it faster and/or jump higher than Athletic Run.  I think it also has a lower end cost?  Though I'm not sure.

 

This doesn't seem like enough to me, but it's at least something.

[Glacier Peak]

46 minutes ago, Zhym said:

Could someone please explain to me what the value of Infiltration is (or is supposed to be)?  It seems like it has worse stealth than Stealth while granting the same run and jump boost as Athletic Run.  Is there any benefit to it that you don't get from Stealth + Athletic Run, which can be toggled on at the same time?  Or am I missing something?

 

I'm not trying to be sarcastic or start an argument—I really don't see what role Infiltration is supposed to fill (other than as a LoTG mule).  

 

Thanks!

Recommend you read the first post here:

 

 

[Luminara]

58 minutes ago, Zhym said:

Could someone please explain to me what the value of Infiltration is (or is supposed to be)?  It seems like it has worse stealth than Stealth while granting the same run and jump boost as Athletic Run.  Is there any benefit to it that you don't get from Stealth + Athletic Run, which can be toggled on at the same time?  Or am I missing something?

 

I'm not trying to be sarcastic or start an argument—I really don't see what role Infiltration is supposed to fill (other than as a LoTG mule).  

 

Thanks!

 

Infiltration is faster (Jumping and Running speeds), jumps higher, has a lower endurance cost and can be slotted.

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=pool.invisibility.invisibility

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=prestige.prestige_travel.prestige_athletic_run

 

[ZorkNemesis]

Infiltration is effectively Ninja Run with more speed and jump while also providing some stealth, the same that Stealth used to provide before being given the same amount Invisibility offered.  It's also slottable and benefits heavily from Blessing of the Zephyr, Winter's Gift, and Travel/End HOs due to getting the benefits of both running and jumping.  It still won't match Super Speed or Super Jump but is a nice middle ground between the two.  It also takes defense enhancements so you get a travel and an LotG spot in one move, plus room for other defense set procs (Kismet, Shield Wall, Reactive Defenses, Karma).  If you're concerned about the lack of full invisibility, it can slot either the Celerity or Unbounded Leap Stealth procs too, or you can put one in Sprint and run the two together.

 

Infiltration unenhanced is not faster than the Coyote or Panther Transformation from P2W but those two powers also disable all other powers while active, so meh?  It also has the drawback of not working with non-Hide stealth powers, so you can't run powers like Stealth, Shinobi-Iri, Steamy Mist, etc at the same time.  Annoying but manageable

 

I have it on a couple characters.  I like it for themeing purposes, a stealthy rogue, secret agent, or a hunter relying on camoflague are a couple ideas for what it can be to your character.  It also helps with the theme that you can set up your stance to use Ninja or Beast run poses while Infiltration is active, so in essence you can upgrade Ninja Run to Infiltration with that setting.

 

Edited August 31, 2021 by ZorkNemesis

[TraumaTrain]

@ZorkNemesis that is the most perfect answer. I use the power on a couple characters, but it had not even occurred to me some of the IO combos you mentioned. Especially the Stealth IOs for more stealth.

 

Thanks!

[tidge]

I had one character that used the Concealment pool, including Invisibility, extensively... I was completely unimpressed with the shift to Infiltration. I gave it a fair shake, but ultimately it just felt like the change was motivated to simply make all the effects of Invisibility available to players with just dipping a single toe into the pool. I understand that there are some other subtle points, but I thing those are only nibbling around the corners.

[skoryy]

Its Combat Jumping but with a bit of stealth as well.

[Bionic_Flea]

I tried it and was disappointed.  If the defense didn't suppress so harshly, even if it was less total defense, I might use it.  I feel the same about Evasive Maneuvers.  As it is, I'd rather take Combat Jumping and put a stealth in either sprint or super speed.  I wanted to like the change to the Concealment Pool.  The changes to teleport were AWESOME!

[ZemX]

Yeah, I can't ever seem to justify taking it.   If I really was willing to go without a real travel power... I might.   It's nice that the speed doesn't suppress, even if the defense does.  And of course nice that it takes a LotG, if you need more spots to put them.

[Outrider_01]

Lotg, stealth IO, defense procs, and its all slotable in 1 power.  So not too bad, cheaper endurance cost than just sprint.

[UltraAlt]

1 hour ago, Bionic_Flea said:

I tried it and was disappointed.  If the defense didn't suppress so harshly, even if it was less total defense, I might use it.  I feel the same about Evasive Maneuvers.  As it is, I'd rather take Combat Jumping and put a stealth in either sprint or super speed. 

 

This makes sense to me.

If the Defense in combat jumping and hover aren't suppressed in combat then why should the defense in other travel-related powers have their +defense reduced or removed in combat?

I mean if this is really the case, why not have the power automatically detoggle when in combat so that you aren't using the endurance for a power that isn't providing you with the benefit of using that endurance?

 

11 hours ago, aethereal said:

Well, it's slottable, so you can make it faster and/or jump higher than Athletic Run.  I think it also has a lower end cost?  Though I'm not sure.

 

This doesn't seem like enough to me, but it's at least something.

 

So if I was using evasion, I would be using it as a combat travel power and not as a long distance travel power. I don't use my long distance travel power in missions except as a "get away" power. I generally only slot up my combat travel power for the defense, so the way that infiltration basically negates that.

 

Saying all of that, I do have infiltration on some ninja characters. Even if it doesn't do what I want it to do, it still seem to be thematic. 

I know ... I'm a Character Conception player ... even though others might see it as gimping my characters.

[Zhym]

This is all interesting; thanks everyone.

 

Do I gather correctly that people usually take Infiltration instead of Stealth, not in addition to it (unless they're trying to maximize LotG slots)?  That might be part of my problem right there. (Although I am trying to maximize LotG slots, so maybe it's not a problem!) 

[arcane]

Infiltration is a good power; only the nubs will disagree 🙂

[oedipus_tex]

IMO Infiltration taking LoTG makes it so much better than a lot of other travel powers that I almost want to ask the reverse question. 🙂 

 

I believe you can stack Infilitration with Ninja Run, it doesn't replace. So with both toggles you run twice as fast, before IOs. Plus you're potentially invisible, and can get +7.5% global recharge. 

 

It's mildly annoying that you can't run Infilitration and Stealth at the same time but that's the limit of my complaining.

 

 

EDIT: Apparently only the highest value stacks, as noted below. However you can still slot LOTG.

Edited August 31, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Zhym]

24 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

I believe you can stack Infilitration with Ninja Run, it doesn't replace. So with both toggles you run twice as fast, before IOs. Plus you're potentially invisible, and can get +7.5% global recharge. 

Hm.  You got me curious, so I logged in to my character with Athletic Run (which AFAIK is Ninja Run without the potential lower back problems later in life), Stealth, and Infiltration to see how they stack.

 

This is at level 43:

 

Active Power(s)	Running	Jumping	Max Jump
None	21.86	38.94	13.14
Sprint	36.18	38.94	13.54
Athletic Run	41.90	58.55	40.94
Infiltration	43.91	60.51	43.72
Athletic Run + Infiltration	43.91	60.51	43.72
Athletic Run + Sprint	56.22	58.55	41.34
Infiltration + Sprint	58.23	60.51	44.12
Athletic Run + Infiltration + Sprint	58.23	60.51	44.12

 

So unenhanced Infiltration is slightly faster than Athletic Run, but it doesn't stack.   It'd be great if it did, but I think the above sounds more like what the travel pool changes were supposed to do. 

Edited August 31, 2021 by Zhym

[Luminara]

45 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

I believe you can stack Infilitration with Ninja Run

 

No.  The highest value of any active travel power applies when you're running multiple travel powers, all lower values are ignored.  If you toggle on both Infiltration and Ninja Run, the only thing Ninja Run will contribute is an increase in endurance usage.

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, Zhym said:

Do I gather correctly that people usually take Infiltration instead of Stealth, not in addition to it (unless they're trying to maximize LotG slots)?

 

I take Infiltration on most of my characters these days.  I also take Stealth sometimes, but it's in addition to Infiltration, not instead of it.  Infiltration is the draw for me, Stealth is just something I might work into the build if I see that it's going to be close to the Defense soft cap and that power would take it over the top.  I don't have any characters with Stealth and not Infiltration.

[arcane]

8 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

No.  The highest value of any active travel power applies when you're running multiple travel powers, all lower values are ignored.  If you toggle on both Infiltration and Ninja Run, the only thing Ninja Run will contribute is an increase in endurance usage.

Ok but Infiltration and Combat Jumping absolutely stack...

[Luminara]

2 hours ago, Outrider_01 said:

cheaper endurance cost than just sprint.

 

0.46 is less than 0.29?  Are you certain?

[Luminara]

2 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

If the Defense in combat jumping and hover aren't suppressed in combat then why should the defense in other travel-related powers have their +defense reduced or removed in combat?

 

Infiltration has bonus Defense, above and beyond the standard pool power Defense.  The bonus Defense suppresses.  The standard Defense, which is not suppressed, is identical to the Defense in Hover and CJ.

 

2 minutes ago, arcane said:

Ok but Infiltration and Combat Jumping absolutely stack...

 

Combat Jumping isn't a travel power.

[TheZag]

Infiltrations main benefit is in making me play my other characters since i dont want to respec to get rid of it right now.  And reminding me when i do log him in 'oh ya, i need to respec that out.  Ill do it later'

[Zhym]

13 minutes ago, arcane said:

Ok but Infiltration and Combat Jumping absolutely stack...

Not for movement rates it doesn't.  I just checked, and the movement rates with Infiltration + Combat Jumping are the same as for Infiltration alone. 

 

Defense bonuses stack, however, as per normal.

[Glacier Peak]

All these questions and more were discussed and answered in the thread I link at the beginning.... 

🙈🙉🙊

[Zhym]

24 minutes ago, Luminara said:

I take Infiltration on most of my characters these days.  I also take Stealth sometimes, but it's in addition to Infiltration, not instead of it.  Infiltration is the draw for me, Stealth is just something I might work into the build if I see that it's going to be close to the Defense soft cap and that power would take it over the top.  I don't have any characters with Stealth and not Infiltration.

Interesting.  I've always done the opposite: most of my toons have Stealth; this is the first time I've taken Infiltration, and that toon already had Stealth. 

 

I can see how Infiltration is a lot easier on endurance than Athletic Run + Stealth, though: 0.46/s (easily reduced with enhancements) vs. 0.89/s (0.32/s +0.57/s, the largest part of which is unenhanceable).