Primary/secondary Power Pairings question

[Neiska]

Hey Forums,

 

I have a question regarding power pairings. When I'm making a character for end content play, I usually try to pick powers with some sort of HP or END tools built into the set so I am not reliant on Incarnates to make a build work, or even worse, Inspirations. (I hate having to rely on consumables. They should be a bonus, not required to make a build work IMO.)

 

But when I read builds such as Broadsword/Shield, or Street Justice/Invlun, such pairings have no such tools. I am contemplating on making a Shield/Energy Melee tanker, but I am worried about the lack of HP and END tools. So here are my questions -

 

You are going to take "some" damage, its unavoidable. Even with DEF/RES cap, some damage is going to get through. With some sets like Bio, absorb/regen is plenty to take care of this most of the time. Other sets have built in Heals. So how do other armor sets deal with juggling HP and END drain unless you are relying on Melee Hybrid for the RES/Regen boost, Ageless or Rebirth Destiny, or popping green and blue candy. So how do you manage this? I rarely see Tankers take something like, Medicine Pool, even on sets with zero built in self healing. Even fewer have built in END tools to speak of.

 

I do have a Dark Armor brute who takes very little damage, and what she does take she heals back herself. Rarely does she have to use her Heal, but it's still there if she needs it. But I doubt all sets are capable of this, healing damage purely with their natural regeneration. Or am I mistaken?

 

I have zero playtime on a tanker with Shield, Invulnerable, and so on. My tankers have largely been Radiation, Dark Armor, Bio Armor, and Electric. My only experience with Shield is with a Elec/Shield stalker, and she is constantly END starved, and I don't want to be a tanker in a same situation.

 

Thanks bunches in advance.

 

TLDR - How do you manage Hitpoints/Endurance when taking Primary/Secondary powersets without any built in tools?

[Psyonico]

Panacea, Miracle, Numina's.  That should solve all of your Endurance problems.

 

as for health on something that doesn't have a heal, you have a couple options.  On Shield, you're probably going to build for capped def and high resist, so the occasional green candy is your best friend.  That plus Rebirth can keep you plenty healed.  Since Shield gives +damage with Against All Odds, you can rely on Melee hybrid instead of Assault for more resistance and regeneration.  If you've got capped defense, you're not going to be taking *that* much damage, so those things should be more than enough.

 

[arcane]

If you’re a tanker, you should usually have enough mitigation to out-regenerate most threats automatically unless you’re using a click-reliant set like Bio or Rad.

 

If you’re an invuln or SR tanker and you find yourself needing more mitigation often, it’s your build that needs work. The fact that you think you need heals just tells me you haven’t gotten good enough mitigation yet.

 

My SR tankers have capped defense, capped DDR, capped resistances once at low health, and higher than normal HP and regen. I don’t need heals because enemies just plain don’t hurt me faster than I regenerate once I’ve got scaled resistances kicking in.

 

Endurance on the other hand is a major pickle. You can beat it without Ageless, but, in most circumstances, why bother? I’d just take Ageless anyway because you shouldn’t need any other Destiny on most tanks and Ageless boosts your offense. And submitting to relying on Ageless for endurance frees you up to focus more of your IO’s on offense. Most of my tankers have Ageless. Even the ones with good endurance tend to go Ageless - just Ageless Radial for the DDR if they’re already good on end. My WP tank and my Ice tank have Ageless Radial, for instance.

 

I have a completed tanker with every primary plus 2 Darks and 2 SR’s. They’re all good enough for me. HMU about any of them 🙂

Edited September 7, 2021 by arcane

[Erratic1]

 Invulnerability does not have an endurance recovery mechanism but when did Invulnerability lose Dull Pain? 

 

[Mezegis]

TBH, this is what I use my inspirations for.  I slot for end red in most powers, and if I get low, pop a blue.  If my natural regen/resistances aren't enough, pop a purp/orange and green.  

 

^^^  This is before incarnates, which give you a tool for just about every options there.

[Neiska]

Thank you for the responses. I usually do slot the Proc stuff like preventative medicine, paneca, numa, performance enhancer on all my characters. But taking my Shield Stalker as an example, or my Widow, they are both DEF capped with varying levels of resistance, and still get clocked, even when they are 45% defense to just about everything. 

 

@arcane - I perfer to not rely on things like ageless for 2 reasons. 1. in case i decide to run lower level content and I wont have access to it, a build can fall flat if it relys on it as a crutch. And 2. I perfer having a tool like ageless in the off chance of dealing with enemies like sappers, or END drain situations. If your build relies on Ageless to perform normally, then it may not be enough when you need more in some circumstances.

 

@Erratic1 - Your point only goes to highlight precisely how little experience I have with the Invulnerability set! But yes, no END tool, but most sets don't have one either. But I didn't think of Dull Pain. 

[Mezmera]

My shield tanker is a blast to play.  The offensive pbaoe attack is a boon to any pbaoe light tanker assault you may have chosen.  

 

I've built her to have all positional defenses soft capped against incarnate content using just the IO system.  With great defenses comes great endurance drain mitigation.  If something does get through that wipes out my endurance like Lord Recluse's attacks that's what I take One with the Shield for, if everything gets shut down I have a huge burst of resistance and endurance recovery to power me through.  

 

Along with the defenses she has 3200+ hp and pretty good regular resists without the t9.  Then there's the damage reducing/boosting taunt shield and the team defense shield.

 

Aside from having a heal and the indirect endurance drain mitigation Shield is quite well rounded.  That's not to say there's not other good pairings.  

 

My tank is Shield/StJ, good pbaoe and strong ST with some nice subtle debuffs.  

[arcane]

21 minutes ago, Neiska said:

Thank you for the responses. I usually do slot the Proc stuff like preventative medicine, paneca, numa, performance enhancer on all my characters. But taking my Shield Stalker as an example, or my Widow, they are both DEF capped with varying levels of resistance, and still get clocked, even when they are 45% defense to just about everything. 

 

@arcane - I perfer to not rely on things like ageless for 2 reasons. 1. in case i decide to run lower level content and I wont have access to it, a build can fall flat if it relys on it as a crutch. And 2. I perfer having a tool like ageless in the off chance of dealing with enemies like sappers, or END drain situations. If your build relies on Ageless to perform normally, then it may not be enough when you need more in some circumstances.

 

@Erratic1 - Your point only goes to highlight precisely how little experience I have with the Invulnerability set! But yes, no END tool, but most sets don't have one either. But I didn't think of Dull Pain. 

Yeah I prefer to just detoggle a couple things like leadership toggles if I ever exemplar, rather than trying to build everything to work below 50 (because I rarely exemplar). I may be reliant on Ageless for my full build, but you rarely need a full build for lower level content anyways. Top performance at level 50 is my main concern. As for at level 50, Ageless will never not be enough. At least it’s never failed me yet.

Edited September 7, 2021 by arcane

[Werner]

1 hour ago, Neiska said:

But I doubt all sets are capable of this, healing damage purely with their natural regeneration. Or am I mistaken?

This is exactly what my Shield Defense/Martial Arts Tanker does. My only healing is my regeneration of 42 HP/sec and the healing/absorb IOs. Ageless rather than Rebirth. Assault rather than Melee. Solo, I'd rather die than take an inspiration. But I don't die, because it's very, very hard to outdamage even that pitiful amount of healing. He's significantly harder to kill than my Dark Armor/Martial Arts Tanker, despite the lack of healing.

 

1 hour ago, Neiska said:

I am contemplating on making a Shield/Energy Melee tanker, but I am worried about the lack of HP and END tools.

 

You probably don't need to worry, just understand the differences, which is what you're asking about. It'll be different from what you're used to, but it won't be any less tough, and it shouldn't be starving for endurance, as long as it's built well. To be fair, I'm using Ageless to manage my endurance when things get dicey, but there are a lot of other tools available if you take Rebirth, which is my recommendation for Shield unless you know exactly what you're doing and why. Cardiac is a good choice, for instance. But if you want incarnates off the table, and find yourself wheezing with the normal tools at your disposal, consider Energy Mastery for Conserve Power and Physical Perfection.

 

50 minutes ago, Neiska said:

But taking my Shield Stalker as an example, or my Widow, they are both DEF capped with varying levels of resistance, and still get clocked, even when they are 45% defense to just about everything. 

 

Tankers are tougher. I'm 3300 hit points, 60+% "undebuffable" defense to all positions, and while resistance varies, SL is usually hard capped at 90%, FCEN isn't far behind, and only toxic and psionic are "low".

 

All that said, I mostly don't exemplar my finished builds, I just grab a lower-level character, so I can't speak to how well it would handle that. If I were to exemplar, I'd relax my no-temps no-insps rules for myself, grabbing the Recovery Serum for endurance, and hitting inspirations as needed to make up for any other shortfalls. It sounds like that's mostly off the table, so I don't have much in the way of advice or experience.

[tidge]

Health is a different matter, this reply is for Endurance:

 

Presented in roughly the order I do certain things:

1. Put Rest in power tray one, use it when necessary.
2. Slot toggle powers for Endurance reduction, then the primary Attribute. Use sets when appropriate, but most Def/Res builds don't need more than 4 slots in those powers. Many Def/Res powers require far fewer slots.
3. Slot attacks for Endurance reduction, after slotting for Accuracy. Use sets when appropriate. (for me, this is when the %damage P2W pieces turn off)
4. Pace yourself.
5. Slot the following globals, in this order: Panacea, Performance Shifter, Miracle (in Health), EndMod (or attuned Performance Shifter, in Stamina)
6. Use the SG base to craft +Recovery with that salvage that is accumulating.
7. Take Rest out of power tray one, unless you skipped step 4.
8. Earn the +MaxEnd accolades.
9. Don't click Hasten unless you REALLY need it. Your teammates won't notice your improved performance but they will see you sucking wind.
10. Slot powers with enhancement set bonuses that given MaxEnd, EnduranceDiscount, and Recovery. (e.g. Annihilation, Preventive Medicine, Unbreakable Guard, some PVP)
11. respec when appropriate (this may let you break #9)

[Psyonico]

Going back to endurance for a moment

53 minutes ago, tidge said:

1. Slot attacks for Endurance reduction, after slotting for Accuracy. Use sets when appropriate. (for me, this is when the %damage P2W pieces turn off)

 

This... I always slot my attacks 1 Acc, 1 endrdx, damage, then Recharge as a last slot before moving to sets, it makes a huge difference.

[Neiska]

Oh, I am talking about a full level 50 with full sets slotted and such, some builds still have END problems. Even with the proc slotting and such. But already gotten some answers that will help. Working on a new Shield/Energy Melee tanker now.

[Jacke]

10 hours ago, tidge said:

Health is a different matter, this reply is for Endurance:

 

Presented in roughly the order I do certain things:

1. Put Rest in power tray one, use it when necessary.
2. Slot toggle powers for Endurance reduction, then the primary Attribute. Use sets when appropriate, but most Def/Res builds don't need more than 4 slots in those powers. Many Def/Res powers require far fewer slots.
3. Slot attacks for Endurance reduction, after slotting for Accuracy. Use sets when appropriate. (for me, this is when the %damage P2W pieces turn off)
4. Pace yourself.
5. Slot the following globals, in this order: Panacea, Performance Shifter, Miracle (in Health), EndMod (or attuned Performance Shifter, in Stamina)
6. Use the SG base to craft +Recovery with that salvage that is accumulating.
7. Take Rest out of power tray one, unless you skipped step 4.
8. Earn the +MaxEnd accolades.
9. Don't click Hasten unless you REALLY need it. Your teammates won't notice your improved performance but they will see you sucking wind.
10. Slot powers with enhancement set bonuses that given MaxEnd, EnduranceDiscount, and Recovery. (e.g. Annihilation, Preventive Medicine, Unbreakable Guard, some PVP)
11. respec when appropriate (this may let you break #9)

 

This is great advice.  I'd add in "Buy the Recovery Serum P2W temp power and use it as needed."  The key is #10, which is the way.

 

Back before Shutdown, between Issue 9 in 2007 May when the Invention System and IOs were introduced and Issue 19 in 2010 November when the Fitness Pool was made Inherent, I ran my Assault Rifle Blaster on builds that only took Swift from the Fitness Pool (primarily to speed up Hover) because I didn't want to spend 2 more Power picks to get Stamina.  This was also when Devices's Tier 6 (Level 20) Power was not Field Operative but Cloaking Device, which didn't provide any +Recovery or +Regeneration.

 

And I did this primarily by following #10.  The Stamina-less build had enough +Rec and +MaxEnd benefits that I could reasonably blast away and not drain my Blue Bar.  And this was without the Panacea chance for +HP/+End, the best effective Recovery IO and the first to get and slot, which was too rare and expensive back then for me to afford.

 

If a Blaster back in day could do it, a Tanker can do it today. 🙂

[Sovera]

Everything that could be said has been done in a clear and concise manner.

 

I am like you that do not like going around with an endurance and health recovery mechanic, but this is also because I hop up and down the scale and examplar lots. Having everything tied to set bonuses which may disappear and incarnates that do disappear, is not something I want to play with.

 

Even 45% defense isn't enough. We take hits. We will need to recover the HP lost from those hits. The answer is getting tons of resistance on top of the defense or heals.

 

Invulnerability for example can AFK in the middle of the ambush atop the hill in the first ITF mission. Shield can do the same. One has more defense than average for a resist set, and other has more resistance than average for a defensive set.

[arcane]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

Everything that could be said has been done in a clear and concise manner.

 

I am like you that do not like going around with an endurance and health recovery mechanic, but this is also because I hop up and down the scale and examplar lots. Having everything tied to set bonuses which may disappear and incarnates that do disappear, is not something I want to play with.

 

Even 45% defense isn't enough. We take hits. We will need to recover the HP lost from those hits. The answer is getting tons of resistance on top of the defense or heals.

 

Invulnerability for example can AFK in the middle of the ambush atop the hill in the first ITF mission. Shield can do the same. One has more defense than average for a resist set, and other has more resistance than average for a defensive set.

And SR can afk almost anywhere 🙂

[Werner]

8 hours ago, arcane said:

And SR can afk almost anywhere 🙂

I believe it. @Bill Z Bubba's SR and my Shield have both gone AFK for 30 minutes at the aggro cap of +4x8 "enemies are buffed" Cimerorans, where you get hit 1.5x as often for 1.5x as much damage. Based on your comments on your build, I'm sure your SR could do that too. That test is a little unfair to most Tankers since it involves massive defense debuffs, which is where SR and Shield shine. I'd guess a defense-heavy Invuln or Granite could do it too? I've played Invuln, but never Granite.

 

(Edit: Just in case someone reads too much into this, this isn't intended as a survivability challenge or proof of uber builds or anything like that. It's just a random example of going AFK in something nasty. You could surround yourself with surgeons, and you technically just did what I said. Gratz! I personally grabbed one group's aggro, moved to the next group, and whoever decided to keep attacking me kept attacking me. I didn't pay attention to how many bosses or what not. I was just curious.)

Edited September 8, 2021 by Werner