Cant decide Elec/Nin or Savage/Nin or SR - Shield better?

[Chelsea Rorec]

24 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

 

on SO's only Neither of those are all that good.

 

I am not sure Mids models how Energy Drain works correctly though, based on some of the crazy screenshots I have seen.  Personally I sit over 45% all the time now anyway so I never really test it.   

Dreads argument for EA over SR is that EA is closer to the def cap than SR and SR uses more end than EA which you can obviously see is completely untrue on both counts.

I'll gladly put any of my SR or Ninjitsu tooks up against and EA because i know none of them will run out of end.

[Without_Pause]

SR has better Def numbers since it has no heal. How one expects EA to have similar numbers is beyond me. Like, hello it is called game balance. Yes, EA is harder to cap since it is type based, but it can cap many of those types. Not sure what "Just IOs" means as that could be commons or that could be going all-in. I've literally taken an SR(Scrapper) and EA(Stalker) to 50 using at best level 25 common IOs, and to call EA trash compared to SR is laughable. I even soloed the Stalker a ton and continue to take it through any and everything I can including all of RWZ. I also have a Level 36 EM/ea Scrapper I am soloing with and very few things have given that build a genuine issue and that's with uncommon IOs. I think only a couple of specific EBs gave it genuine trouble. Again, end is easily manageable and I push the diff setting as high as I feel comfortable with which has included +3. I would have to look up the team size setting. x2 maybe x3. Mostly because the build is still early and EM doesn't have great AoE.

 

FYI, I run 9 toggles on my EA Stalker. End use is 1.78%. End recovery is 3.04%. To die on a hill because SR might use 1.67% is quite the take.

[Erratic1]

8 minutes ago, Chelsea Rorec said:

So i have just done a side by side comparison of EM/SR and EM/EA with just IO's on stalkers.

Up to level 30

Spoiler

SR Def 33% melee/ranged

End use 0.43/s

 

EA Def 30% S/L/F/C, 35% NRG, 24% Neg

End use 0.61/s

 

Energy drain only raises the def by 1%

 

Ninjistsu with both toggles up to level 30 is only 0.50 end/s

 

Past lvl 30 EA gains nothing where as SR gains Evasion which is AOE def/Def Debuff pushing AOE def to 38%

End drain on both is 0.61/s

 

Conculsion

EA is an end drain early on with lower defence

SR has higher def and less end drain early game

 

I don't typically spend but a few hours playing the early game. I suppose this might make a difference to someone who plans on languishing in their 20s and even then you're talking a difference in endurance consumptions of 0.18/s--basically meaningless.  If 0.18s is the difference between your character's survival and defeat you should probably slot an Endurance Reduction SO somewhere (like an attack since attacks are the primary consumers of endurance).

 

 

8 minutes ago, Chelsea Rorec said:

 

Both gain from the 2 Res/Def IO's but SR is closer to the cap than EA

 

Even past lvl 30 with set IO's added end useage on SR drops to 0.50/s

In no way is that an end hog.

 

Now someone is going to say "omg Energize and energy drain pwnz" yeah.. no not really.

Energy Drain in mids says 2% def no matter how many mobs are around you and is +Endurance only.

 

Mid's is far from perfect and gets powers wrong. Why don't we take a trip over to City of Data:

 

 

Notice the power has two entries for +Defense. That is it gives a base amount (0.75% Defense to S/L/F/C/E/N) and a variable amount based on the number of nearby foes (0.375% Defense to S/ L/F/C/E/N). 

 

When you use the power you can check the Power Monitor to see:

 

 

Look at that...multiple entries for Energy Drain based on the number of foes nearby. Looks like it is adding up to more than 2% and that with the few guys around the character.

 

I will admit that is on a scrappper, not a stalker since my only stalker with Energy Aura is level 23 (and unlikely to go any higher since I dislike the primary I took on her). Maybe some kind soul will  happen along to show me that the power works differently on Stalkers by posting from the actual game.

 

Quote

And Energize is a heal  with an endurance discount. Even with hasten it's a recharge of 40 seconds.

At some stage you will be reaching for the blue insps or have to heavily slot health like Dread had to.

 

Its not like I did not address this already upthread:

 

And you do not even need to get to perma-Energize, just close enough that combined with Energy Drain you never run out of endurance. I pull that routine on my Elec/Rad tanker (Electrical Armor is the resistance mirror set to Energy Aura) who has Energize recharging every 40s. 

[Chelsea Rorec]

I'm sorry it looks like you didn't read the post correclty.

I suggest you go back and re-read it again.

[Erratic1]

10 minutes ago, Chelsea Rorec said:

Dreads argument for EA over SR is that EA is closer to the def cap than SR and SR uses more end than EA which you can obviously see is completely untrue on both counts.

I'll gladly put any of my SR or Ninjitsu tooks up against and EA because i know none of them will run out of end.

 

An Energy Aura player who runs out of endurance at any point past Energy Drain does so because they want to die. 

[Erratic1]

1 minute ago, Chelsea Rorec said:

I'm sorry it looks like you didn't read the post correclty.

I suggest you go back and re-read it again.

 

Better idea. I'll just ignore someone who clearly has no idea WTF they are talking about.

 

Truth is not a democracy and the crowd can be wrong. Still, most people marching to the beat of a different drummer are merely hearing things in their own head...along with voice telling them to do plainly bad things. You might want to make sure you are not one of them.

[Haijinx]

EA is easier to Cap at an earlier level for a few reasons, mostly involving IOs

 

You have an in set resist mule for your two +3% Def IOs, so you can slot them before you have Tough. 

S/L is easy to build with either Smashing Haymaker or Kinetic Combat 4 slots 

S/L stacks with the temp power Kinetic Damper - really nice early 

SR on scrappers has horrible level progression because of the AOE hole.  EA doesn't have that.  

 

At 50 though neither is really easier to build than the other.  EA just exemping a little better below level 30.  

 

 

[Chelsea Rorec]

2 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

An Energy Aura player who runs out of endurance at any point past Energy Drain does so because they want to die. 

i just tested energy drain just now.. 1 mob 2%

5 mobs = 2%

35.14% to 38.11% with 1 def io in it.

Wow those numbers really break the bank.

still dosn't put it over SR

[Erratic1]

3 minutes ago, Chelsea Rorec said:

i just tested energy drain just now.. 1 mob 2%

5 mobs = 2%

35.14% to 38.11% with 1 def io in it.

Wow those numbers really break the bank.

still dosn't put it over SR

 

You were saying something earlier about not reading a post correctly?

 

Pretty sure I was speaking about running out of endurance while having Energy Drain available. You know...that power that gives you endurance? 

 

Edit: That was too tempting to ignore as a response. Now you're actually going on ignore.

Edited December 30, 2021 by Erratic1

[Chelsea Rorec]

2 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

EA is easier to Cap at an earlier level for a few reasons, mostly involving IOs

 

You have an in set resist mule for your two +3% Def IOs, so you can slot them before you have Tough. 

S/L is easy to build with either Smashing Haymaker or Kinetic Combat 4 slots 

S/L stacks with the temp power Kinetic Damper - really nice early 

SR on scrappers has horrible level progression because of the AOE hole.  EA doesn't have that.  

 

At 50 though neither is really easier to build than the other.  EA just exemping a little better below level 30.  

 

 

SAme is true for SR or Nin

And no a lot of EA builds still do not have a soft capped neg def

[Without_Pause]

2 minutes ago, Chelsea Rorec said:

And no a lot of EA builds still do not have a soft capped neg def

In game standing still I'm at 43.87%.

[Haijinx]

42 minutes ago, Chelsea Rorec said:

SAme is true for SR or Nin

And no a lot of EA builds still do not have a soft capped neg def

 

True, my favorite EA build is not softcapped on neg def without an Energy Drain.  It is capped for S/L/E/F/C with no drain.  

I havent bothered to build for any PSI protection, if I have any its incidental.  And of course I need to keep an Eye out for Def Debuffs, which you don't have to do on SR.  

 

NIN numbers are slightly lower than SR aren't they?  So would take more IO's. They do get AOE defense MUCH eariler though.  You could have your basic Melee/Ranged and AOE shields all running by level 2 if you wanted.  I guess it depends how much Exemping you plan on doing.   You can solve the SR AOE problem by playing Stalker or Brute instead though I suppose. 

 

NIN has the most tools though, HEAL, End recovery, Active mitigation, Stealth, Crit buff, Movement buffs.  But you lose the Recharge buff.  Which would be a pain to build around since I like perma hasten.

Edited December 30, 2021 by Haijinx

[FUBARczar]

On 12/29/2021 at 8:06 AM, Microcosm said:

 

This sentence made me sad. So sad that I slapped together a savage/nin build, then proceeded to clear some +4 Rikti and some Pylons, and solo the first mission of the ITF on +2/8 on beta server to remind myself nin is actually not bad. I'm pretty sure I could have done it +4/8, but didn't try. I'd like to clarify about nin:

 

1) With good recharge and some resist slotting, nin can actually cap Toxic and Psi resistance, since the resistances from the Heal and Mez clicks are stackable. That can be a very big deal, considering that most of the attacks in game that ignore all defense are either Toxic or Psi.

2) Caltrops is super not skippable. Skipping this is probably why people think nin is squishier. It is an active mitigation power that provides substantial mitigation. Throw a knockdown proc in there and you increase it even more. Caltrops also happens to do a good amount of damage over time, both to single targets and AoE. I combined it with Fold Space to pile the enemies densely on the patch.

3) The heal is very solid.

3) Blinding Powder is skippable, but fun with Contagious Confusion.

4) Smoke flash should always be skipped, especially as there is a temp power you can purchase that does the exact same thing.

5) Kuji-in Retsu (t9) is indeed skippable, but it has its uses if you want it for def debuff.

 

It is not the best secondary for all things, but it is not bad either. I would actually generally take it over SR unless I really needed the +rech from SR, but that's just me. You deal with the lower def debuff resistance by making all your enemies flop around or try to run away very slowly on Caltrops. Just a different approach.

 

Scrapper version is a much better version.  The stalker version is paper compared to SD, SR, Stone, EA, etc.  Sure with Ninjitsu can do +2/8, and with help of Barrier or Ageless and taking caution it can do +4/8 as well.  And there is the rub, it's thinness (very poor DDR, no +HP, only psi/toxic +Res, etc.) will slow it's speed and make it less reliable.  It can crumble in a jiffy.  It's like standing on a empty coke can, and then having someone tap the side, squish!  

[DreadShinobi]

@Chelsea Rorec you gotta calm your tilt. I would agree with you more often, but then I would be wrong too. Deciphering your blatant misinformation goes great with my morning coffee though.

 

This is my typical energy aura skeleton build with everything stripped away and can be shown that it can be applied to any energy aura build regardless of primary.

 

First stat total is without Energy Drain or Energize and second stat total is with 10 target Energy Drain with only a +5 lotg +rchg IO and unslotted energize.

 

Villain Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.1.25
https://github.com/Crytilis/mids-reborn-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 49 Magic Stalker
Primary Power Set: Street Justice
Secondary Power Set: Energy Aura
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Heavy Blow -- SprAssMar-Acc/Dmg(A), SprAssMar-Dmg/Rchg(3), SprAssMar-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(3), SprAssMar-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), SprAssMar-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), SprAssMar-Rchg/Rchg Build Up(11)
Level 1: Hide -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 2: Kinetic Shield -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(17)
Level 4: Power Shield -- Rct-Def(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx(13), Rct-EndRdx/Rchg(13), Rct-Def/Rchg(15), Rct-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(15), Rct-ResDam%(17)
Level 6: Assassin's Strike -- SprStlGl-Acc/Dmg(A), SprStlGl-Dmg/Rchg(7), SprStlGl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(7), SprStlGl-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(9), SprStlGl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(9), SprStlGl-Rchg/Hide%(11)
Level 8: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 10: Entropy Shield -- Empty(A)
Level 12: [Empty] 
Level 14: [Empty] 
Level 16: Kinetic Dampening -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), GldArm-3defTpProc(19)
Level 18: [Empty] 
Level 20: [Empty] 
Level 22: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 24: Tough -- Empty(A)
Level 26: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(27)
Level 28: Energy Drain -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 30: [Empty] 
Level 32: [Empty] 
Level 35: [Empty] 
Level 38: [Empty] 
Level 41: [Empty] 
Level 44: [Empty] 
Level 47: [Empty] 
Level 49: [Empty] 
Level 1: Assassination 
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Quick Form 
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Combo Level 1 
Level 1: Combo Level 2 
Level 1: Combo Level 3 
------------

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Edited December 30, 2021 by DreadShinobi

[subbacultchas]

I am fairly sure Mids incorrectly displays Energy Drain values. But it is far more than 2%. It stacks multiple times, more than the ten times slider allows in MIds. Maybe at 2-5 enemies it's lackluster for defense only (still rocks the end). But I find I fire it off so often on groups that I'm always carrying around 9-10 stacks, sometimes closer to 15 to 20 especially on my brute. It is far from a tiny amount of defense then. I'm actually curious what the maximum number of of stacks is, may have to do some farming runs to test it.

This conversation is weird. It's no a threat to SR, Nin, or any other set. Hell I still prefer Stone personally. But it is a very tight set that offers some things the others don't, or earlier than they get them, and more importantly offers flavor when you've tried the others and need something new.

[DreadShinobi]

20 minutes ago, subbacultchas said:

I am fairly sure Mids incorrectly displays Energy Drain values. But it is far more than 2%. It stacks multiple times, more than the ten times slider allows in MIds. Maybe at 2-5 enemies it's lackluster for defense only (still rocks the end). But I find I fire it off so often on groups that I'm always carrying around 9-10 stacks, sometimes closer to 15 to 20 especially on my brute. It is far from a tiny amount of defense then. I'm actually curious what the maximum number of of stacks is, may have to do some farming runs to test it.

This conversation is weird. It's no a threat to SR, Nin, or any other set. Hell I still prefer Stone personally. But it is a very tight set that offers some things the others don't, or earlier than they get them, and more importantly offers flavor when you've tried the others and need something new.

 

Don't know what is wrong with everyone's mids display on energy drain. I get a 1-10 slider on my energy drain in mids. With only base slot holding a +5 lotg rchg IO and 10 targets energy drain provides 4.5% def. This can stack more than 10x with enough global recharge as you noted.

 

Energy Aura is not a tight set though, quite the opposite, see my post above. All you need to softcap EA is the two ATO sets, which everyone is going to slot anyways, 5 slots given to Power Shield, 1 slot given to Kinetic Shield, 1 slot given to Weave, and the two 3% def uniques which can both find a home in base slots. You do not need any additional sets devoted to bolstering your defense.

Edited December 30, 2021 by DreadShinobi

[Microcosm]

5 hours ago, FUBARczar said:

Scrapper version is a much better version.  The stalker version is paper compared to SD, SR, Stone, EA, etc.  Sure with Ninjitsu can do +2/8, and with help of Barrier or Ageless and taking caution it can do +4/8 as well.  And there is the rub, it's thinness (very poor DDR, no +HP, only psi/toxic +Res, etc.) will slow it's speed and make it less reliable.  It can crumble in a jiffy.  It's like standing on a empty coke can, and then having someone tap the side, squish!  

We're just going to disagree, and that's fine. To each his own. I won't play nin on a scrapper because it lacks caltrops. You can still get caltrops with the epic pool, but then you can't take waterspout/hibernate or moonbeam/shadow meld, which is a non-starter for me.

 

I went back to that first itf mission on 4/8 on both the Sav nin and a slapped together Sav SD, both softcapped. I used ageless radial with both, but I think I could do it without ageless as well, might try it later. I also faceplaplanted with both due to my lack of planning: for the nin it was to the swarm of bright novas; for the SD it was earlier in the mission where I had pulled two groups and the stars aligned such that one with the shield and hibernate were both down and some defense cascade started. Likely I would have sailed through that on an Sr. But both shield and nin would do better against that final mission essence that's auto hit, with shield being the heavy favorite for the resist. And nin would do better against the mother mayhem mission that's all psi damage. None of these sets is "bad". Where nin really falls down? A bunch of flying enemies that aren't flying close to the ground (caltrops affects them if they stay close enough to the ground) and large end drain that gets through, which hurts every armor except Ene/Elec.

 

I don't use nin most of the time for a similar reason I don't use shield: I like to make high proc damage builds. Such builds require lots of endurance help and/or rech from the secondary. That leads one to Ene/Elec and to a lesser extent Sr/Stone/Rad/Bio. The exception would be with savage or claws which are endurance light.

 

Edit: so, just for giggles, I redid that mission at 4/8 without any destiny powers whatsoever on both. The results are that SD hits harder and goes faster (huge surprise), but if I aggro a whole room with that I will last only as long as one with the shield and hibernate, then I'm going down. That's with all the ddr available to SD. On the nin, I can aggro as much as I want as long as my proc caltrops are down and I will survive that aggro. With Barrier or some way to push well over softcap the shield would be the obvious choice because it does more damage, but survival-wise caltrops are very underrated.

Edited December 30, 2021 by Microcosm

[subbacultchas]

1 hour ago, DreadShinobi said:

 

Don't know what is wrong with everyone's mids display on energy drain. I get a 1-10 slider on my energy drain in mids. With only base slot holding a +5 lotg rchg IO and 10 targets energy drain provides 4.5% def. This can stack more than 10x with enough global recharge as you noted.

 

Energy Aura is not a tight set though, quite the opposite, see my post above. All you need to softcap EA is the two ATO sets, which everyone is going to slot anyways, 5 slots given to Power Shield, 1 slot given to Kinetic Shield, 1 slot given to Weave, and the two 3% def uniques which can both find a home in base slots. You do not need any additional sets devoted to bolstering your defense.

Yeah my Mids has been wonky sliders lately, I'm not sure what it is. I'm hoping a newer update will fix it.

I think you're taking different version of tight here than intended. I just mean it's a very well-thought out and designed set, think of someone calling a new car "clean". They aint talking about the literal cleanliness of it. I get so used to talking the way we do around here, I forget our colloquialisms don't always translate into text.

[Saikochoro]

Not going to directly quote or reply to the multiple claims of EA being trash. That is just plain wrong. EA is a top tier set. It is one of the best armors in the game. 

I want to clear up two false statements so that misinformation doesn’t run wild. 
 

- There was a claim stating that EA is not easy to softcap. The only types that aren’t easy to softcap are psi and somewhat negative energy. Psi is a built in hole in EA. Negative energy is still simple enough to get to 45%, even without using energy drain. I don’t have a single EA character that isn’t softcapped to all types other than psi and I don’t take the leadership pool on any of them. 
 

- There was a claim stating that energy aura is an end hog. Only if you aren’t using the tools EA gives you to manage endurance. Energy drain is not the main endurance tool in the set. It is honestly more for defense buffers or as an emergency click for end if you aren’t using energize for some reason. Energize is the main endurance management tool that can be made perma quite easily. Between energize and energy drain EA has some of the best endurance management available. I rarely ever even have to use energy drain because energize is so good. 
 

Energy aura is a set that allows for fairly easy softcapping to all types except psi. It has some baseline resists that can be supplemented with pool powers and set bonuses (my EA characters have s/l resist in high 50s to low 60s, and e/n resist in the 50s without temp powers or clicks). It has great endurance management. It has a decent heal.  It also has a good + rech power. When built correctly it is one of the best armors available. All the while allowing for some procs in attacks. 
 

All that said, OP didn’t have EA as one of their interested armors. Shield defense is still my recommendation for the armor set to use out of the original options. It is right up the with EA as a top tier armor. I just had to make sure people reading this thread didn’t think either of those sets are trash as they are both extremely good.