Damage vs. Defense Debuff

[Techwright]

I was mulling over IO slotting arrangements on Corrosive Vial this evening when I realized I have never really considered which is more effective against an enemy: a second damage IO or a defense debuff IO.  And does it depend on the power they're slotted to?

 

Let's give an example:  Corrosive Vial, simplified to two slots.  Let's use level 50 IOs for simplicity, and assume the first slot has a damage IO.  Would my attack be more effective by slotting a second damage IO, or would using that second slot for a defense debuff improve the effectiveness of the current damage enough to prefer it over the damage IO?  Or would it break even?  Or would the result vary if another power were receiving the two IO spaces?

 

Mids reborn can tell me the % value for damage and defense debuff, but I'm not sure that show effectiveness in action, how much damage ultimately gets through.

 

  Hope I'm explaining clearly what I seek.

 

[TheZag]

Consider defense debuff as reverse team accuracy.  You and your team miss less on the effected target.  If you have team accuracy buffs and arent missing to begin with then defense debuff isnt doing anything.

 

Now -resistance is a different story.  That makes everyone hit that target for more damage and is great on teams against high HP targets.

[InvaderStych]

36 minutes ago, Techwright said:

Would my attack be more effective by slotting a second damage IO, or would using that second slot for a defense debuff improve the effectiveness of the current damage enough to prefer it over the damage IO?

 

Apologies if I am misunderstanding the question, but ....

 

.... defense debuffs won't necessarily improve the attack that applies them, they'll apply a -defense effect for a duration of time making subsequent attacks more likely to land.

 

So, imo, the question is less about the effectiveness for that power in a vacuum, but a combination of where it falls in your attack routine and the base values for dmg and debuff.  If it's low dmg/high debuff, leverage that, if the opposite ... well, do the opposite.

 

36 minutes ago, Techwright said:

Or would the result vary if another power were receiving the two IO spaces?

 

100% depends on the power.  Enhancing a 5% defense debuff isn't as effective as enhancing a 20% defense debuff in terms of "gameplay effectiveness" or "slot opportunity cost." 

 

I'm not well versed enough in the underlying math to give you anything in concrete numbers though, but there's a "percentage of a percentage" sort-of-kind-f-thing happening in there someplace. For example, I rarely enhance combat jumping for defense, except incidentally to get set bonuses, because the base value is so low that the enhancements are only netting < 2% difference in total defense.

 

Edited October 21, 2021 by InvaderStych

[macskull]

In the case of Corrosive Vial I'm pretty sure its base damage is low enough where you won't get much mileage out of straight damage enhancements and would be better off putting damage procs (i.e. "chance for x") in there instead.

[SuperPlyx]

I slotted the 2 -resistance procs In Corrosive Vial but it recharges so fast not sure how effective they are. But - def and -res looks good on paper

[Ukase]

I have this page bookmarked and find myself referring to it prior to slotting a proc. To work the formula, I have to have Mids open to see the specific values. 

Rule of thumb - a superior Winter-O, a very rare (purple)  - those have a 4.5 ppm and can reliably be slotting in any single target power with a base recharge of 10 seconds or more. If you slot a recharge in that power, you'd have to plug in how much of a recharge boost you've put in to determine the odds of the proc firing. Using procs, you're best off relying on global recharge from set bonuses, rather than specific recharge IOs in that power with the proc (s), unless the recharge is long enough to allow them and still have the proc fire consistently. 

Caveat: if you stumble across a build in the forums or reddit or whatever - half of these folks are so clueless about procs (and builds in general) that they genuinely have no idea how bad their builds are. If a build has a proc in it - verify the odds before you slot it. If it only has a 12% chance of firing, I see no reason in using it. Opinions will vary, however. 
 

[LaimNoah]

It recharges so fast after inserting the 3 electrodes in the toxic liquid. On paper, however, both of the resistances appear to be in good shape.

you can also check cpstest maybe its helpful.

 

Edited October 21, 2021 by LaimNoah

[SuperPlyx]

This is fighting a Lattice GM on monster island:

Spoiler

 

 

Worked pretty good and procced every time I used it.

 

 

Apologies to @Techwright if I have derailed your post.

[arcane]

Never picked up this power because never got verification on how it procs. So thank you, SuperPlyx.

 

Any comment on damage procs?

[Doomguide2005]

     Well it is a 3.5 ppm proc so at minimum I would expect similar proc rates from damage procs with same value.

 

Both Touch of Lady Grey and Shield Breaker have the same ppm value per CoD

Edited October 21, 2021 by Doomguide2005

[SuperPlyx]

21 minutes ago, arcane said:

Any comment on damage procs?

 

Corrosive is 18 second recharge with my build
Positron's Blast and Lady Grey procs are 3.5 ppm

7 attacks in 3 minutes
Posi procs 5 times
Lady procs 7 times

 

Spoiler

 

[roleki]

11 hours ago, macskull said:

In the case of Corrosive Vial I'm pretty sure its base damage is low enough where you won't get much mileage out of straight damage enhancements and would be better off putting damage procs (i.e. "chance for x") in there instead.

 

That right there.  Unless you're going for set bonuses, slotting damage enhancements in something that does <5 damage just isn't worth it.  But what would be the most effective slotting of CV?  That might be dependent on your AT, how many slots you can afford to put into it, how much global recharge you have, and what you DO with the character once it's slotted.

 

Corrosive Vial is an auto-hit with up to 5 targets in a small radius on a 60s timer; if it's slotted for less than 75% recharge, whatever procs you put into it are going to fire quite regularly.  If you need the extra damage and can afford the slots, it will take up to 4 damage procs (Lady Grey, Bombardment, Javelin Volley, and Positron's Blast).  It can take up to 3 controllish procs (Frozen Blast Immob, Ragnarok KD, and Overwhelming Force KD).  It can also take two -Res procs (Achilles' and Annihilation).   

 

Myself, I usually can't afford to invest too much into CV, so I just put two pieces of Achilles' in there (the proc and Def Debuff/Recharge) and fire it off before I roll my A/B/C attacks.  That said, if I was on some kind of AV hunter, it might be worth slotting the other -Res in there and a Recharge IO, to effectively make CV a +ToHit/+20% damage 'toggle' that I can insert at the front of my attack chain to make the next two or three attacks more effective, skip a cycle, and insert it again.

 

 

[arcane]

1 hour ago, Doomguide2005 said:

     Well it is a 3.5 ppm proc so at minimum I would expect similar proc rates from damage procs with same value.

 

Both Touch of Lady Grey and Shield Breaker have the same ppm value per CoD

Awesome @SuperPlyx. Sounds like it primarily happens on cast, not something that reoccurs like in some patches. Seems pretty dang reliable though!

 

@Doomguide2005I only ask for clarification because, once a patch or pet or pseudopet is involved, it seems like all certainty is thrown out the window and you really need to test every kind of proc individually. At least that’s what I get from studying Sir Myshkin’s work. You have all sorts of powers where certain procs work great and others not at all.

Edited October 21, 2021 by arcane

[macskull]

Also worth pointing out that while the power itself is autohit, the procs slotted in the power are not.

[Glacier Peak]

7 minutes ago, macskull said:

Also worth pointing out that while the power itself is autohit, the procs slotted in the power are not.

I didn't know that! I've always wondered by certain procs I've slotted weren't landing, even with the 95% chance to proc being achieved for the PPM rate. I had no idea procs had separate to-hit. Is their to-hit affected by buffs? Like if I smack 'Aim,' would it improve the chances of a proc not missing?

[macskull]

1 minute ago, Glacier Peak said:

I didn't know that! I've always wondered by certain procs I've slotted weren't landing, even with the 95% chance to proc being achieved for the PPM rate. I had no idea procs had separate to-hit. Is their to-hit affected by buffs? Like if I smack 'Aim,' would it improve the chances of a proc not missing?

This was a relatively recent change and only affects damage procs slotted in autohit powers. IIRC the hit roll for those is affected by global acc and tohit buffs but I'm not entirely sure.

[Glacier Peak]

25 minutes ago, macskull said:

This was a relatively recent change and only affects damage procs slotted in autohit powers. IIRC the hit roll for those is affected by global acc and tohit buffs but I'm not entirely sure.

Well I appreciate the news - I guess I always assumed that all procs were auto hit as long as they were high enough in probability of their PPM. It makes sense though now that I think about it. A power like Infrigidate comes to mind, which can be slotted with debuff procs and damage procs, but if the damage procs never missed, that would've left a bit weird precedent.

[macskull]

1 minute ago, Glacier Peak said:

Well I appreciate the news - I guess I always assumed that all procs were auto hit as long as they were high enough in probability of their PPM. It makes sense though now that I think about it. A power like Infrigidate comes to mind, which can be slotted with debuff procs and damage procs, but if the damage procs never missed, that would've left a bit weird precedent.

Procs are - and always have been - flagged "cancelonmiss" which means if the power they're slotted in misses, the proc won't do anything. In the case of autohit powers though you ended up with what is essentially autohit damage. The two biggest examples coming to mind are Caltrops and Corrosive Vial, which is precisely why the change we're talking about was made. Proc rolls are always performed after the hit roll but it happens so quickly it might as well be simultaneous. In the case of Infrigidate, if you miss your target none of your procs will fire, but if you hit your target then the procs will check against their % chance to fire. In the case of Corrosive Vial, the procs will do a hit check and then either do nothing (missed the hit roll) or something (check % chance to fire and either fire or not).