Low DPS blasters

[Without_Pause]

I haven't IOed out a blaster so I wasn't sure. If not, then that just means Sonic isn't impacted that much by -res being it's side effect.

[Erratic1]

40 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

I haven't IOed out a blaster so I wasn't sure. If not, then that just means Sonic isn't impacted that much by -res being it's side effect.

 

Sonic attacks both boost self damage and lower target's resistance and do so for 5-9 seconds depending on the attack.

 

I will have to go test that in game now with the combat monitor (the damage boost).

[Carnifax]

1 hour ago, Erratic1 said:

 

I didn't think you could put ATOs in secondary powers.

You can, assuming they are damage powers (Mez for controllers / domis). You can't put them in Pool or Epic powers though. 

[Aurora_Girl]

I mean. I can defeat a "purple before it gets to me" on my Arch/Nin, so...

 

NERF ARCHERY NAO

[Erratic1]

56 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

 If not, then that just means Sonic isn't impacted that much by -res being it's side effect.

 

Okay, tested it:

 

 

So as long as you're continuing to attack you're repeatedly applying overlapping damage buffs to yourself ON TOP OF lowering the target's resistance to damage.

[InvaderStych]

13 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

Sonic attacks both boost self damage

 

FWIW; This part is a blaster-wide thing.  The -Res is Sonic's secondary effect, but all blasters get a rolling dmg buff from attacking, different powers are different +%.

Edited November 1, 2021 by InvaderStych

[Erratic1]

Just now, InvaderStych said:

 

FWIW; This part is a blaster-wide thing.  The -Res Sonic's secondary effect, but all blasters get a rolling dmg buff from attacking, different powers are different +%.

 

How did I never notice that?

 

In any event you should also still be getting rolling resistance debuffs on your targets as well. So definitely there is self benefit.

[Without_Pause]

6 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

So as long as you're continuing to attack you're repeatedly applying overlapping damage buffs to yourself ON TOP OF lowering the target's resistance to damage.

I should clarify as reading what I wrote wasn't clear to me based on the quote. I mean I don't find the -res aspect to Sonic being that limiting in terms of slotting and procs compared to other side effects. If you can proc damage and a -res, then you are more looking at what damage types you can proc.

[Nemu]

I do believe Diantane has a point.

 

Buff fire blast. It's low damage with its many not high or extreme damage attacks.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Nemu
Grammar

[DarknessEternal]

59 minutes ago, Nemu said:

I do believe Diantane has a point.

 

Buff fire blast. It's low damage with it's many not high or extreme damage attacks.

I hope it's no one's first day when they read this.

[Haijinx]

4 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

How did I never notice that?

 

In any event you should also still be getting rolling resistance debuffs on your targets as well. So definitely there is self benefit.

 

Yeah that's the defiance 2.0 bonus.

 

While not as Epic as the Defiance 1.0 bonus, it is definitely more game friendly. 

[Mopery]

4 hours ago, Nemu said:

I do believe Diantane has a point.

 

Buff fire blast. It's low damage with it's many not high or extreme damage attacks.

 

[A Cat]

On 11/1/2021 at 12:03 PM, Without_Pause said:

Ranged and Ranged AoE attacks get a decent amount of proc options,

I'm with you on ranged AoE, but st ranged attacks have like, three damage procs? With two being uniques. 

[Without_Pause]

2 hours ago, A Cat said:

I'm with you on ranged AoE, but st ranged attacks have like, three damage procs? With two being uniques. 

That's one per three different attacks. How many are you putting in there? Are you actually using 2 damage procs in a ST attack and thus taking away from getting additional set bonuses? I can see using higher amounts of procs in a lower damage AT, but a Blaster?

[Shred Monkey]

Sonic's real niche is as a primary for a blapper leaning heavily on siren's song for control and shout to fill between punches.  Plus, thematically it's nice that you don't have to put away a weapon or unflame your fists to punch something.

[Maelwys]

On 11/3/2021 at 1:38 PM, Without_Pause said:

That's one per three different attacks. How many are you putting in there? Are you actually using 2 damage procs in a ST attack and thus taking away from getting additional set bonuses? I can see using higher amounts of procs in a lower damage AT, but a Blaster?

 

Set bonuses can be had elsewhere, for the most part. And usually even if you want all the recharge possible, you'll only need to use 5-pieces in your attacks - so that's one proc from the set plus another from the 6th enhancement slot, for two procs total.

 

That said, for proccing purposes sets are often a bad idea in attacks since there are very few of them that can take more than half an IO's worth of recharge % enhancement without dipping below the 90% chance cap for regular 3.5 PPM procs.

 

Optimal Proc slotting is typically two +3 Acc/Dam HOs (or one of those and a +5 lvl 50 X/Dam IO) plus 4 procs, assuming a Musculature Alpha and no endurance reduction requirements (Ageless, etc.). But it's very difficult to exploit that on sets that don't deal -Defence, -ToHit, Slow or Knockback because of the lack of available damage procs in single target ranged IO sets.

[Carnifax]

24 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

Set bonuses can be had elsewhere, for the most part. And usually even if you want all the recharge possible, you'll only need to use 5-pieces in your attacks - so that's one proc from the set plus another from the 6th enhancement slot, for two procs total.

 

This is my approach on Water/Temp. Water is lower on single target damage so Dehydrate has 2 procs (1 of which is Achilles), Water Jet also has two (purple + jav). Rest is one random Acc/Dam IO and 3 Thunderstrikes (avoid Recharge enhancements). Part of that is leverging the insta-recharge Water Jet can do when you've got the orange circle on it. 

[oedipus_tex]

To be fair to Sonic Attack, -13% Resist per attack really isn't a bad number. Combined with Blasters having nearly bottomless endurance, some self HP or absorb capability, and some other advantages, I think Sonic Attack may be better than it first seems. It also a spammable Sleep cone that's actually pretty good in the context of Blasters.

 

For a comparison point, a lot of debuff Controllers settle for -22.5% damage resist. The Sonic nuke not only does Blaster level Nuke damage, it's a Mag 3 Stun that does 13% damage resist for 20 seconds. If you hit Howl immediately after you're already at -26%.

 

Sonic Attack does have lower base numbers than other Blast sets, but high damage secondary powers are something Blasters can grab easily. That's harder on, say, Defenders. That's not to say I think Sonic Attack is perfection, but I do think it's a bit undersold. Dominators crow about Sleet existing in their APPs, despite that power only barely doing as much debuff as Sonic Attack on a Blaster, and against a single target far worse.

 

 

Edited November 4, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[FUBARczar]

On 11/1/2021 at 4:19 PM, Erratic1 said:

 

Shriek, Scream, Howl, Shockwave, and Shout are all available by level 8 and  form the backbone of dealing damage with the set. You should (a) know by level 8 if those are going to be sufficient for your primary damage dealing and (b) probably not rely on the longest recharge power of the set as your primary damage tool.

One problem is they don't do much DMG, very low DPA.  Sonic on blasters stinks with only two good powers: Aim and the Nuke.

[FUBARczar]

If you roll Sonic you are better off only taking Aim and the Nuke while relying on secondary and pool powers for actual DMG.

Edited November 5, 2021 by FUBARczar

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, FUBARczar said:

One problem is they don't do much DMG, very low DPA.  Sonic on blasters stinks with only two good powers: Aim and the Nuke.

 

The point was that if you do not like the damage you will know that well before level 32. What I wrote was in response to, "You have to wallow through horrible attacks just to get to 32?"

 

As for DPA, let's compare...say to Energy Blast, which I have not heard anyone complaining about.

 

Shriek: 44.24 vs Power Bolt: 52.66

 

Well, 52.66 is 19% higher DPA than 44.24. Oh wait...Shriek applies a 13% resistance debuff which lasts for 8.5s.  If you were only using Shriek and no other attack you would after two uses, even respecting recharge and cast time, maintain a 26% debuff meaning you would effectively be at  55.74 DPA--a tad bit higher than 52.66. Of course your other Sonic attacks apply debuffs so more practically you could use those instead of standing around with your thumb....errr.....

 

 

Scream: 44.69 vs Power Blast: 55.52

 

55.52 is 24% greater than 44.69 but again two applications of sonic attacks with debuffs before its use negates that difference.

 

 

Howl: 20.21 vs Energy Torrent: 45.5

 

A 125% greater DPA for Energy Torrent is not really going to be made up for by resistance debuffs. Still, it does apply a 13 resistance% debuff which lasts for 9.83 seconds. 

 

 

Shout: 45.67 vs Power Burst: 59.1

 

The powers are gained at different tiers but that is the nature of comparing different sets...you do not necessarily get comparable powers at the same levels.  Power Burst is 29.4% ahead of Shout in raw terms and that is again well within the realm of being negated by the application of two previous sonic attacks which deal resistance debuffs.

 

 

 So Sonic does not look to me to be in that horrible a position. You might argue that needing to prime the pump with two previous attacks to come up to where other sets are at still leaves Sonic horribly behind but that ignores that primary sets are not the only means by which a blaster can do damage. In particular secondary sets deal damage and sometimes with higher DPA than powers in the primary set. So whenever one of those powers is used after the use of sonic attacks they do not keep pace with where they would have been with another primary set other than Sonic, they exceed where they would have been.

 

Shriek->Scream->Electron Shackles: (55.25+82.58*1.13+71.95*1.26)/(1.188+1.848+1.32) = 54.92 vs Power Bolt->Power Blast->Electron Shackles: (62.56+102.6+71.95)/(1.188+1.848+1.32) = 54.43

 

So Shriek+Scream+Electron Shackles deals the same damage as Power Bolt+Power Blast+Electron Shackles over the same animation time when you factor in the real damage that is going to be dealt and not just raw damage listed for the powers ignoring that resistance debuffs mean something.

[DarknessEternal]

Well, with Fire, things are dead after you do Blaze+Blazing Bolt.  So they don't really need a damage resistance debuff applied.

[Erratic1]

Just now, DarknessEternal said:

Well, with Fire, things are dead after you do Blaze+Blazing Bolt.  So they don't really need a damage resistance debuff applied.

 

So you're saying that the DoTs which Fire gets are meaningless because they never have a chance to do anything?

 

If that suits you fine. I would perhaps turn the difficulty up and, I don't know, get more experience, a faster ride, and more challenge.

[FUBARczar]

8 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

The point was that if you do not like the damage you will know that well before level 32. What I wrote was in response to, "You have to wallow through horrible attacks just to get to 32?"

 

As for DPA, let's compare...say to Energy Blast, which I have not heard anyone complaining about.

 

Shriek: 44.24 vs Power Bolt: 52.66

 

Well, 52.66 is 19% higher DPA than 44.24. Oh wait...Shriek applies a 13% resistance debuff which lasts for 8.5s.  If you were only using Shriek and no other attack you would after two uses, even respecting recharge and cast time, maintain a 26% debuff meaning you would effectively be at  55.74 DPA--a tad bit higher than 52.66. Of course your other Sonic attacks apply debuffs so more practically you could use those instead of standing around with your thumb....errr.....

 

 

Scream: 44.69 vs Power Blast: 55.52

 

55.52 is 24% greater than 44.69 but again two applications of sonic attacks with debuffs before its use negates that difference.

 

 

Howl: 20.21 vs Energy Torrent: 45.5

 

A 125% greater DPA for Energy Torrent is not really going to be made up for by resistance debuffs. Still, it does apply a 13 resistance% debuff which lasts for 9.83 seconds. 

 

 

Shout: 45.67 vs Power Burst: 59.1

 

The powers are gained at different tiers but that is the nature of comparing different sets...you do not necessarily get comparable powers at the same levels.  Power Burst is 29.4% ahead of Shout in raw terms and that is again well within the realm of being negated by the application of two previous sonic attacks which deal resistance debuffs.

 

 

 So Sonic does not look to me to be in that horrible a position. You might argue that needing to prime the pump with two previous attacks to come up to where other sets are at still leaves Sonic horribly behind but that ignores that primary sets are not the only means by which a blaster can do damage. In particular secondary sets deal damage and sometimes with higher DPA than powers in the primary set. So whenever one of those powers is used after the use of sonic attacks they do not keep pace with where they would have been with another primary set other than Sonic, they exceed where they would have been.

 

Shriek->Scream->Electron Shackles: (55.25+82.58*1.13+71.95*1.26)/(1.188+1.848+1.32) = 54.92 vs Power Bolt->Power Blast->Electron Shackles: (62.56+102.6+71.95)/(1.188+1.848+1.32) = 54.43

 

So Shriek+Scream+Electron Shackles deals the same damage as Power Bolt+Power Blast+Electron Shackles over the same animation time when you factor in the real damage that is going to be dealt and not just raw damage listed for the powers ignoring that resistance debuffs mean something.

proof is kind of in the pudding 

[oedipus_tex]

2 hours ago, FUBARczar said:

proof is kind of in the pudding 

 

 

 

Not sure what this is showing. Is that a pylon time chart? If so I'd say it's not telling the whole story.

 

Sonic Attack is the only blast set other than Beam Rifle that multiplies damage delivered by the rest of team and any pets, including Lore pets. So if it is still doing decent damage with those attacks, its out performing debuff sets that offer -Resist by huge margins, because most of those powers don't do any damage.

 

Sonic Attack is probably in the lower middle of Blaster sets. Its definitely nowhere in the bottom tiers where Assault Rifle is.

 

It is possibly the case that Sonic Attack is much better on Defenders, due to getting -20% Resist per attack instead of -13%. -13% is still extremely impressive however. 

 

For a point of comparson, sets like Radiation Emission on a Controller can only get -22.5% and that's without delivering any damage. Since -Resist multiplies all sources of damage--teammates, your pets, Lore pets, powers that can't normally be enhanced like Judgment, damage from Confused mobs, on and on, I'd say Sonic Attack is at a minimum a "decent" Blaster set. I wish I understood how -Resist applies on 24-man leagues better so I could figure out how valuable the -Resist is in that scenario, which is an ideal fish tank for showcasing the capabilities of -Resist due to multiplying so many teammates powers and the high likelihood of Lore pets being involved.

 

 

I have a 50 Sonic/Cold Defender whose Resist debuff potential is of course amazing. Actually killing anything with him solo on the other hand is a real challenge. If he were a Blaster instead, I'd grab the high damage attacks in the secondary and up his solo times. I think in the case of Sonic Attack especially its not fair to look at the blast attacks in isolation. Blasters have access to very high damage in their secondaries and can fall back on that to cover gaps. 

 

The major gap in Sonic is probably lacking a second decent damage AoE blast. That does suck and is hard to make up for if AoE destruction is your goal. On the other hand I've never failed a trial or task force due to lack of AoE.  

Edited November 5, 2021 by oedipus_tex