SCRAPPERS AND TAUNT

[Bill Z Bubba]

A 5th option has emerged: Give scrappers the sentinel overhauls but with scrapper modifiers since none of them have taunt auras.

 

So now we have:

 

Do nothing.

Remove all taunt auras from all scrappers.

Add taunt auras to the scrappers missing them.

Remove taunt auras from brute powersets where they don't exist in scrapper powersets.

Give scrappers the sentinel powersets instead.

 

My vote is for option 3 even though I'd absolutely love to have master brawler instead of practiced brawler.

[Aurora_Girl]

Scrappers *should* trade direct aggro management and saturated buff/debuffs for Critical Hits and higher base melee modifier. Full stop. 

 

If you want the former, play a tank or brute. If you want neither, and enjoy controlled crits and sneaky sneaky, play a stalker. 

 

Done, thread solved, tip your waitress. 

[arcane]

1 minute ago, Aurora_Girl said:

Done, thread solved, tip your waitress. 

I like the cut of your jib

[Deuce Spade]

2 minutes ago, arcane said:

Fair point RE: Provoke. Tbh I only take it on Masterminds.

 

RE: current scrapper taunt auras.. well frankly based on a number of dev comments and the illogical inconsistency of it all, my impression is that some scrappers currently have taunt auras *by mistake*.

 

RE: I know tanks aren’t technically needed in the current meta because of disastrous power creep, but if we are to really assume the game’s design does not intend to encourage the practice of tanking, why have taunt effects or powers *at all*?

I agree tanks are intended to be useful.  They still can be, more in some cases than others.  What I disagree with is the idea that taunt auras infringe on this and create an imbalance between the ATs that reduces the effectiveness of, or invalidates entirely, tanking ATs.

 

Scrappers had taunt auras, unless I'm remembering old INV incorrectly, from the start of the game. 

[arcane]

1 minute ago, Deuce Spade said:

I agree tanks are intended to be useful.  They still can be, more in some cases than others.  What I disagree with is the idea that taunt auras infringe on this and create an imbalance between the ATs that reduces the effectiveness of, or invalidates entirely, tanking ATs.

 

Scrappers had taunt auras, unless I'm remembering old INV incorrectly, from the start of the game. 

You could be right. I’m fuzzy on what this was like on live. All I know is the HC devs, if not the live ones, have historically really given Scrapper taunt auras the stink eye.

[kelika2]

40 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Give scrappers the sentinel powersets instead.

absorb on regen makes me think of scab shields

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

My vote is for option 3 even though I'd absolutely love to have master brawler instead of practiced brawler.

What? No!

 

I don't mind having a taunt aura on my Invuln Scrapper, but I like the fact that my SR Scrapper doesn't have a taunt aura. I use that fact to single out targets while the rest of the team is dealing with other things ,without drawing aggro away from the tank (or the blaster :).

 

Motion denied. We'll adjourn until tomorrow.

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

What? No!

 

I don't mind having a taunt aura on my Invuln Scrapper, but I like the fact that my SR Scrapper doesn't have a taunt aura. I use that fact to single out targets while the rest of the team is dealing with other things ,without drawing aggro away from the tank (or the blaster :).

 

Motion denied. We'll adjourn until tomorrow.

 

Tomorrow?!!? What the hell am I supposed to do until then? Adjournment denied!

 

Also, why can't/don't brutes share that same luxury as they share the same powersets? As stated earlier, I don't need a taunt aura for fury generation on my SR brute.

[BrandX]

47 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Tomorrow?!!? What the hell am I supposed to do until then? Adjournment denied!

 

Also, why can't/don't brutes share that same luxury as they share the same powersets? As stated earlier, I don't need a taunt aura for fury generation on my SR brute.

 

I'd say it's because the ATs weren't together in the beginning 😛

 

I personally don't mind Scrappers lacking them on some, HOWEVER, I feel the damage auras should've been doing critical hits since the beginning.

 

I for sure wouldn't get rid of the taunt auras that are there.  I wouldn't be upset if the ones with damage auras got them, but it never bothered me and I haven't felt I've needed to really chase down that often.

[Bill Z Bubba]

32 minutes ago, BrandX said:

I'd say it's because the ATs weren't together in the beginning 😛

 

And you are not wrong. Things made a lot more sense when red was red and blue was blue. Now the waters are murky and convoluted but no effort has been put forth to purify anything and instead they were made dirtier by the recent tank buffs.

[TheZag]

You arent chasing a runner,  you are hunting your prey.

[Aurora_Girl]

And crits on a DMG aura...why? What's an extra 20-25 DMG at level 50? 

[Bill Z Bubba]

33 minutes ago, Aurora_Girl said:

And crits on a DMG aura...why? What's an extra 20-25 DMG at level 50? 

 

Edited November 11, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[BrandX]

3 hours ago, Aurora_Girl said:

And crits on a DMG aura...why? What's an extra 20-25 DMG at level 50? 

 

For me, the why is because...I'm a scrapper and I'm doing damage!  I feel every attack I take should crit.  Arcane Blast.  Boxing.  Brawl (does this crit?).  This is what Scrappers do!  Every attack a Brute uses is enhanced by Fury.

[Bill Z Bubba]

59 minutes ago, BrandX said:

Brawl (does this crit?).

 

Nope. But fury works on it and it does benefit from containment as well.

[InvaderStych]

9 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Problem 1: This still forces 8 of 14 scrapper secondaries to take a pool power in order to function properly like the other 6 do without it.

 

This assertion is based on the premise that scrapper does not function "properly" unless it has a source of an automatic taunt.  I disagree with that pretty strongly.  A Scrapper's contribution to a team is not aggro management, it's priority-target & hard-target elimination while being durable enough that the support ATs don't have to worry about you as much as they do the Blaster. If there is a need to hold a hard target's attention, natural threat and massive dmg in its face do that just fine.

 

A solo scrapper should have no problems with "runners" given that most of us are running an epic snipe and Combat Teleport exists. Honestly, with those two tools I actually enjoy taking out strays that think they are going to escape. But I'm quite odd, I know.

 

The only reason Scrappers have them at all is due to auras with a buff based on mobs being in range; change those into something that is not mob dependent - without nerfing its potential - and I'm just fine dropping all taunt from Scrapper secondaries.

 

And, though I am too lazy to do another quote: Hard No conforming all the Scrapper armors to the Sentinel versions.  First off, Sents don't get /Shield, and you can pry my shield from my cold-dead-scrapper-hands. 😄 Second, Sents don't get the good version of Beta Decay and the crappy version of the dmg buff from Meltdown.  3rd, if there are certain armors where the Sent implementation makes more sense (Regen!), then those should be evaluated case by case, not wholesale.

 

Edit: (Okay, less lazy than I thought but ...)

 

  

5 hours ago, Aurora_Girl said:

And crits on a DMG aura...why? What's an extra 20-25 DMG at level 50? 

 

Why are we all focusing on the auras while forgetting that neither Shield Charge nor Ground Zero crit either? 😉

Edited November 12, 2021 by InvaderStych

[BrandX]

2 hours ago, InvaderStych said:

Why are we all focusing on the auras while forgetting that neither Shield Charge nor Ground Zero crit either? 😉

 

 

And I want those to crit too!  And Burn!  If it's an attack a Scrapper does, it should Crit 🙂

[InvaderStych]

7 hours ago, BrandX said:

And I want those to crit too!  And Burn!  If it's an attack a Scrapper does, it should Crit 🙂

 

Ack! I always forget Burn.

 

Gotta call myself out on that one too! 😄

[arcane]

I agree with the emerging argument here that if some inherents get to impact pool powers and Brawl and damage auras and whatever, they all should.

[PeregrineFalcon]

14 hours ago, InvaderStych said:

This assertion is based on the premise that scrapper does not function "properly" unless it has a source of an automatic taunt.  I disagree with that pretty strongly.  

I disagree with that as well.

 

Look, Scrappers have plenty of ways to keep a target from running. My MA Scrapper has Air Superiority, Crippling Axe Kick and Dragon's Tail. Any of which will keep most targets from running. Other Scrappers have things like Disembowel and Jawbreaker.

 

I can hear your reply now: "But Peregrine, you can't knock or immob an AV!"

 

Yeah? Well, AV's will often just ignore taunt and do whatever they want, so what's the difference?

 

Next reply: "But Peregrine, if I take Crappy Axe Kick it'll lower my Arcanatime DPS."

 

Ok. Well, that's the trade off you make, I guess. More DPS or the ability to stop runners. That's sounds like good game mechanics to me.

[Bill Z Bubba]

28 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Ok. Well, that's the trade off you make, I guess.

 

No, the tradeoff is I choose one of the 6 scrapper secondaries that have a taunt aura or one of the 7 that don't. And it's a crappy tradeoff considering that some with it provide numerically superior mitigation and/or heightened damage output on TOP of having a taunt aura.

 

It's unfair, unnecessary and lacks balance. It's ugly game design and should have been corrected back on live. Just like brawl not critting or scourging while it is coded for containment and naturally benefits from fury and vigilance. Unfair, unnecessary and lacking balance.

[Deuce Spade]

There is one primary I can think of that could adequately stop runners, and that's ice melee. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

Should that be the next step here? To break down each of the 13 scrapper secondaries to show, without a doubt, the ridiculousness of the situation? Is it even necessary? It ain't rocket surgery. For those that are inclined to dive into such things there's already a massive amount of powerset comparison data available for us to peruse. Most of us already have a pretty decent handle on the mitigation rankings, on which sets to lean toward for more damage, which sets survive solo max diff ITFs and which don't, which get you through the Trapdoor test the fastest, which is the right one to use for taking down pylons (it's bio, we all know it's bio....)

 

Or is that, too, just a complete waste of time when too many simply don't give a shit about game balance and don't care when things are broken when it doesn't affect them?

[Deuce Spade]

To clarify, I don't think most people are experiencing runners the same way I am, judging by the offered solutions.  I generally have a problem when I've wounded a large number of guys but not killed them yet.  This happens with most AOE sets, and having a damage aura without a taunt component can compound the problem.  A single target attack doesn't help me, with apologies to the ranged attacks in claws and spines.  AOE damage with mitigation can be good and bad, depending on how many it leaves alive to tear off running and how fast it will recharge.

 

In reply to Bill above, I don't think it's worth the time.  There hasn't been a genuine effort to discuss the problem from almost anyone, just disingenuous and condescending posts supermansplaining how to fight runners.  Predictably, most of the answers aren't as comprehensive and effective as the post tone would suggest.

[Aurora_Girl]

Well as I have said in our Discord conversations, I think before any change is even fully fleshed out and suggested, the idea of what is "inherent" to the Scrapper AT (or, really, all of them) should be hashed out.

 

To me, Scrappers don't need/shouldn't have taunt effects, at all, in any power. Aggro control is not their job, killing shit expeditiously and without any support is. If you're concerned about mob saturation for Invincibility/RttC, I'd like to see survivability numbers that would support that. When I build for those powers, I set them to 1 mob in range, tops. Always hope for the best but plan for the worst, right? If you really want that 10+ target goodness, or you wanna measure your epeen by tanking Hami (which I did last night on my /SR brute, and my epeen was peacocking this morning, you betcha), play a Tanker or Brute.

Scrappers (should) trade aggro management and superior survivability for WAY higher base damage and Critical Hits. Full stop. Taunt doesn't affect your pylon time, or your AV soloing, the only thing people seem to care about is chasing runners...which is a bullshit lazy excuse when the "w" and "f" keys exist.

I fully support stripping all taunt effects from scrapper powers, and hey, if you want Brawl to crit? Fuck it, let's make Brawl crit. Standardization of things like that both help FOMO and stop AT-hybrid-creep, which I abhor. Blasters should blast, Tankers should tank, Scrappers should be able to go off-leash and do their damndest to solo the +4/8 spawns on their own irrespective of any other variable.