Hawkeye

[Techwright]

  On 12/5/2021 at 8:28 AM, Mr. Vee said:

he's pretty clearly 

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the swordsman

This Kate has grown on me. I do miss the whole vibe from the comics about what a loser Clint is, though. Of course they had 50 years of him in continuity before noticing that unlike the MCU which went a whole other direction.

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As to the hidden contents: agreed.  The in-story name alone confirms it.  That said El Aguila was a very interesting guess, and Marvel has already had characters that are created by flip-flopping comic details around.  I'd not put it past them to create a hybrid character.

 

I like Kate, let me be clear on that up front.  But I don't like mouth-running characters, nor hyper-impulsive characters whom the writers let bend the universe to their solitary will to accomplish what they want.  Kate has both of these traits in measure.  I want to see growth on her part.  Let some of that caution, quietness, and world-weariness that Clint holds settle upon her.  It need not, and should not, be the full burden.  Just enough to get her to quiet down and think before leaping.  In exchange, her youthful enthusiasm can rub off on Clint, restoring some of his zest that he lost due to repeated emotional traumas.

[DougGraves]

  On 12/5/2021 at 8:28 AM, Mr. Vee said:

he's pretty clearly 

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the swordsman

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You are right.  That should have been obvious.  I just like El Aguila so I was blinded.

[Haijinx]

Kate is pretty much comics Kate minus her young avengers seasoning.

 

So I think they did her pretty well.

 

She kind of has to do double duty quips though, since MCU Clint isnt quipy which differs from his main continuity counterpart.

 

[Techwright]

  On 12/5/2021 at 9:26 PM, Haijinx said:

She kind of has to do double duty quips though, since MCU Clint isnt quipy which differs from his main continuity counterpart.

 

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Ironic since MCU Clint has one of the best quips in the MCU with his "no one would know" comments regarding Quicksilver's peskiness.

 

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

Nice featurette showed up on Insta and YouTube about how they cast Maya/Echo:

 

Spoilery stuff ahead:

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With Ubercanonmeister Feige revealing that Charlie Cox is still Daredevil - whether or not he shows up in No Way Home, and a lovely gesture on the socials from D'Onofrio, I'd be very happy if his Wilson Fisk (Maya's "uncle" / adoptive father) showed up in the coming weeks. Though he is fairly busy with a few other projects at the moment.

 

Echo will need a very different canon from the comics, mind, as she is Ronin before handing the identity on to Clint. 

 

  On 12/6/2021 at 11:22 PM, Techwright said:

MCU Clint isnt quipy which differs from his main continuity counterpart.

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True enough, since deadpan humour and an array of pained/hangdog facial expressions suits Renner down to the ground.

 

Edited February 18 by ThaOGDreamWeaver

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

So, new Hawkeye ep dropped today:

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• Lots of fun in this episode, but felt like a "hang time" one - character development, writers getting some gentler gags in, and the plot's ball is arcing gently just before it drops.
• If you've seen the tail gag of Black Widow, you'll have known that the Yelena / Barton faceoff was coming. Always good to see Pugh too...
• ...speaking of which, the mystery person Eleanor talked to might be Fisk, but also might be the ever-fabulous Julia Louis-Dreyfus' Contessa. Which would be great if we get both, but a neat bait-and-switch if Vincent wasn't available.
• Various internet hypesters promising Episode 5 is where everything goes nuts.

 

[GraspingVileTerror]

Episode 4 had a moment that felt very real for me . . . an odd experience, given the rest of the content.  The original lived experience was already kind of surreal, honestly, so seeing it play out on the screen like that gave me a very uncomfortable sense of nostalgia.

I am now emotionally invested in this series.

[Ulysses Dare]

I swear this series feels more like a love letter to Natasha than her own movie was.

[ZacKing]

  On 12/9/2021 at 2:15 AM, Ulysses Dare said:

I swear this series feels more like a love letter to Natasha than her own movie was.

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I agree and that's a good thing.  The Black Widow movie was a stinker IMO.

[Ulysses Dare]

  On 12/9/2021 at 5:41 PM, ZacKing said:

The Black Widow movie was a stinker IMO.

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One thing this series gets right, that the Widow movie flubbed, is how beat up Clint gets even when he wins. By contrast, Natasha survived some ridiculous action scenes with barely a scratch. It made them feel less weighty.

[Techwright]

  On 12/9/2021 at 10:12 PM, Ulysses Dare said:

One thing this series gets right, that the Widow movie flubbed, is how beat up Clint gets even when he wins. By contrast, Natasha survived some ridiculous action scenes with barely a scratch. It made them feel less weighty.

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I suspect they're going for the Die Hard effect, but yes.  Clint has always been knocked for being the human in the Avengers (really? for being human?), but its exactly his humanity (injury, fear, depression, despair, desperate hope, family man) that makes him perhaps the most relatable Avenger.  He's the "everyman".  He's been through so much that I'm almost willing him to retire at the end of this, and enjoy his well-earned family life.

 

  On 12/8/2021 at 3:30 PM, ThaOGDreamWeaver said:

So, new Hawkeye ep dropped today:

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• ...speaking of which, the mystery person Eleanor talked to might be Fisk, but also might be the ever-fabulous Julia Louis-Dreyfus' Contessa. Which would be great if we get both, but a neat bait-and-switch if Vincent wasn't available.

 

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Now THAT is an interesting thought...

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I'd been trying to figure out if both Jack and Eleanor were working for Fisk.  Plot-wise it sounded a bit redundant.  Now they've revealed it as so for Jack, but Eleanor seems highly focused on security.  She even runs a security company.  It seems to be her driving need.  Perhaps the up-front terror of the Battle of New York did that to her, but then again, folks have speculated that other things happened...

 

I digress.  If she's indeed all about security, and few scruples for getting it, that sounds like a perfect recruit for Contessa, and a perfectly twisted driving force should she become the Madame many are hoping for.

 

[DougGraves]

  On 12/9/2021 at 5:41 PM, ZacKing said:

I agree and that's a good thing.  The Black Widow movie was a stinker IMO.

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I think it was fine but not great.  I mostly enjoyed it but have no reason to watch it again.  And it did not feel like an epic climax to her movie career.  It felt like a by the numbers action movie made to pad out a series.

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

The Black Widow movie was... okay. On a par with recent Bond movies, No Time To Die aside (and no decent villains in any of 'em, dammit.)

And Flo Pugh kind of knocked everyone else offscreen.

 

But it didn't bring closure to Nat's story, or the pain that losing someone you're close to leaves behind - explored gently in Ep4.

Also, we may not have to get closure: another Nat (alter-Nat?) might take her place, as in the What If? series.

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

Welp, things just got real.

If you need a little more detail than that...

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Wilson maltfudgesaucing^₁ Fisk his very self is back, and yes, it's Vincent d'Onofrio. Wonder ifthey're setting up a full-on Vader moment for Lopez in the last episode...?

 

Eleanor is working with/for Kingpin, but did she hire Yelena? I wouldn't put it past the skills of a Black Widow to fake a video, let alone lie. We also know from the end of Black Widow that it was Contessa who sent Belova after Barton for revenge, not as a paid gig - unless this was arranged via Contessa a long, long time ago.

 

Either way, the upcoming obvious confrontation in episode 6. See my second Spoiler for an expert opinion on how this would go down...

 

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¹ it's Christmas.

Edited December 15, 2021 by ThaOGDreamWeaver

[ArchVileTerror]

Goddamnit, @ThaOGDreamWeaver!   I thought it was going to be an actual appearance, with dialogue and motion!  Not just some fuzzy photo on a cellphone.

Phooey.

(In all seriousness; very interested to see the next episode now!)

[Techwright]

Good episode!

 

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I'm kind of surprised story-wise that if the Avengers & Company were sitting on the dangerous secret of the Infinity Stones (and possibly the bigger secret of functional time travel), its got to be the worst-kept secret if its known that Clint was with Natasha when she died.

 

I'm also a bit surprised that Kate didn't just go ahead and tell Yelena that Clint saved her life at the battle of NY.  It couldn't hurt, and might cause just a bit of doubt.  Yelena is whip-smart, yet doesn't apparently even stop to think why Barton would kill Natasha?  Unless the soul stone is known about, in which case its an even worse-kept secret than I realized.  It does seem to be a trait of Yelena: being smart yet manipulated.

 

I'm worried for Grillz.  It feels like someone is not walking out of this alive, and I'm not talking about the ASL boyfriend.

 

How did Hawkeye know Maya was at the slaughter? She remained hidden throughout, and I don't recall her mentioning that in front of him.  Based on this episodes revelations (which I guessed up front, probably like a million others), I'm wondering if her father's dying plea for her to run away was a fear of Kingpin appearing, more than Ronin coming back.

 

Eleanor didn't hire Yelena.  Kingpin did.  I suspect Yelena only believes Eleanor was behind it.  Another manipulation.

 

I'm very curious to see where the writing team is going with Kingpin.  He's potentially capable of being the Big Bad for a whole arc of movies, but being nowhere near the class level of Thanos or Kang, he gets really no chance.  I'd almost have wished the MCU would have started with him and gradually ramped up the various arcs' Big Bads.

 

I would have thought Kate would have been in to see the police by now, unless that is the wrap-up scene where Hawkeye shows and silences all questions.

 

 

 

[Techwright]

Sooo...about that Rolex...any ideas?

 

My thoughts:

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Personally I'm leaning toward the watch somehow pointing at Laura Barton, but I'm open to other ideas.  We know Clint said the secrets of that watch would point to someone who has not been in the game for a long time, and revealing those secrets would blow the person's cover and endanger them.  It seems to be someone Clint deeply cares about.  Laura, on the other hand, seems concerned about the watch, but not to the intensity Clint seems to have.

 

If it is Laura, it implies she's a former covert agent, probably SHIELD.  Some have said that means she's the MCU Mockingbird.  Whether true or not, just being a SHIELD agent with a cover is interesting.  It jives with a comment Clint made a while back in the MCU stating that Nick Fury arranged the farm for them and helped hide the family.  At the time, we all just took that to mean Hawkeye's prominence might jeopardize his family.  But Fury is also know for having a boatload of safehouses hidden around the globe, and the Barton farm is beginning to seem like one of them.  That, and we've never seen Laura away from the farm, even for the family trip to NYC.  Which in hindsight looks like hiding.  So, yeah, Laura seems the likely tie to the watch.  Except...the watch appears to be a man's style watch.  Most of the theories surrounding Laura refer to it as her watch.  I've a counter theory, which I'll come back to.

 

Fury makes a bit of sense:  he's been hidden since Winter Soldier, though he's been in operations still.  The problem is, he's in space.  Much harder to reach him.

 

Coulson has been mentioned as a candidate.  Though nothing would make me happier than to see Coulson back in the MCU (Agents of SHIELD was more or less cut off and left high and dry by the MCU), Coulson seems like the least-likely choice as the powers-that-be were not happy he was resurrected, feeling that diminished the weight of his death in Avengers.  They went along with it initially, but then there's that whole "high and dry" thing.

 

It's possible the watch is tied to someone we've not seen yet in the MCU, someone who'd be immediately recognized from their comic book counterpart.  I've no suggestions, as I've seen most everyone I can think of associated with SHIELD.  The only one I can think of would be a Howling Commando, but unless they were given a life-stretching serum, it seems unlikely.

 

Coming back to that "man's watch" thing:  My counter theory is that it IS a man's watch and it is tied to Laura.  She would have been using it to track and record someone utilizing hidden technology in the watch.  We already know from the miniseries that the watch has a tracker.  I'm suspicious that the watch was given to or owned by Kingpin, and SHIELD was using it to monitor him.  At some point Laura was deep cover, had her cover blown, and had her death faked so that Fisk wouldn't come after her.  (People have suggested that Laura was not only a Mockingbird, but THE Bobbie Morse.  If so, she probably let "Bobbi Morse" die and took "Laura" as a cover name.) The watch was stolen to keep Fisk from using it to backtrack to Laura for revenge, but for some stupid reason it was never destroyed.  Fisk learns of this when the items of the underground auction come up, and sends in the Tracksuits to retrieve the watch. 

 

 

 

[DougGraves]

Watch

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I think it relates to Laura being Mockingbird because it fits.  But Pym arrows were shown and Pym has been out of the business for a long time and the watch would fit Pym the millionaire.

 

Hiring

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I think Val is just a broker.  I think Eleanor is the client.  I think Eleanor is the new Madame Masque working with Kingpin.  Jack is Swordsman, but he is just Eleanor's tool and not the mastermind.

 

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

  On 12/15/2021 at 11:59 PM, ArchVileTerror said:

Goddamnit, @ThaOGDreamWeaver!   I thought it was going to be an actual appearance, with dialogue and motion!  Not just some fuzzy photo on a cellphone.

Phooey.

(In all seriousness; very interested to see the next episode now!)

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ahhhaaaahhaa. Mine is an evil laugh.

But yes, definitely him, and did a small squee/air punch when VdO's name came up in the (very nifty Saul Bass-inspired) credit animations.

 

Speaking of Hitchcock...

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It's possible the Rolex is just a throwaway MacGuffin, Barton and the writers are lying/misdirecting about it blowing an old colleague's cover and it's completely unimportant - though if so, why would it have a tracker in it?  So my guesses as to who it belongs to:

 

HANK PYM: Doug's theory would make sense, as it could easily hide anything in it at a microscopic/quantum level. But he doesn't seem that flashy, and he'd be better about hiding the tracker for similar reasons.

 

TONY STARK (THEORY 1): the only git flash and tacky enough in the MCU enough to wear Rolexes on a daily basis, or hide Stark Tech in a Rolex (if it's a control for a time machine or similar, probably as a joke/clue.)

 

TONY STARK (THEORY 2): Tony's also the only git flash enough to dole Rolexes out as gifts to his friends. Again, it could have Stark Tech in it.

 

CAP OR HULK? Possible if they were gifts from Tony. Definite sentimental value to Clint if it's Cap's.

 

KINGPIN - it's a trap, which Barton is knowingly walking into and was just trying to put Bishop off. Then again, it's quite possible that Kingpin was working with Barton in his Ronin guise: or even back in the SHIELD days, as they aren't known for playing 100% clean when things need to get done, and Kingpin is (mostly) smart enough to realise global threats are threats to him personally as well.

 

ROBO-COULSON: As with everyone else, I would love to see Clark make yet another comeback. But unless it's something to do with his new LMD format I'm not seeing how it links up.

 

LAURA (MOCKINGBIRD)? The gag about it being a "man's watch" comes into play here, which could be an affectionate tease for his wife needing something more durable, and a big motivator for Clint to retrieve it and find out who's behind the theft - though he doesn't seem to find it that pressing...

 

So my #1 theory...

 

NATASHA: wrapping all of the above together. A big tough chunky man's Rolex would be a joke Christmas present from Tony, or maybe even a big present from Clint (she'd want something a little less delicate, more solid and hardwearing). ISelling one of Natasha's most personal items on the black market is guaranteed to draw the attention of one Clint Barton. Not to mention all the feels.

 

And no, Nat isn't alive, but it's possible she held someone else's information on it (I used to have a USB watch too for work, though not nearly as sparkly). And/or it does something Stark-y. But that's not the core of the story beat.

 

He probably knows it's a trap. Given his PTSD and depression, he also might be looking at it fatalistically as a good way to go out (not to mention hand over the Hawkeye name for himself and Marvel): but his family, Kate and/or Lucky might be enough to stop him doing anything overdramatic.

 

Edited December 18, 2021 by ThaOGDreamWeaver

[Techwright]

  On 12/18/2021 at 1:03 AM, DougGraves said:

Watch

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I think it relates to Laura being Mockingbird because it fits.  But Pym arrows were shown and Pym has been out of the business for a long time and the watch would fit Pym the millionaire.

 

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Your watch theory comment #2 is interesting.  I don't believe I've seen that from anyone else previously, but it would be fun to see that explored.

 

  On 12/18/2021 at 8:59 AM, ThaOGDreamWeaver said:

Speaking of Hitchcock...

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It's possible the Rolex is just a throwaway MacGuffin, Barton and the writers are lying/misdirecting about it blowing an old colleague's cover and it's completely unimportant - though if so, why would it have a tracker in it?  So my guesses as to who it belongs to:

 

HANK PYM: Doug's theory would make sense, as it could easily hide anything in it at a microscopic/quantum level. But he doesn't seem that flashy, and he'd be better about hiding the tracker for similar reasons.

 

TONY STARK (THEORY 1): the only git flash and tacky enough in the MCU enough to wear Rolexes on a daily basis, or hide Stark Tech in a Rolex (if it's a control for a time machine or similar, probably as a joke/clue.)

 

TONY STARK (THEORY 2): Tony's also the only git flash enough to dole Rolexes out as gifts to his friends. Again, it could have Stark Tech in it.

 

CAP OR HULK? Possible if they were gifts from Tony. Definite sentimental value to Clint if it's Cap's.

 

KINGPIN - it's a trap, which Barton is knowingly walking into and was just trying to put Bishop off. Then again, it's quite possible that Kingpin was working with Barton in his Ronin guise: or even back in the SHIELD days, as they aren't known for playing 100% clean when things need to get done, and Kingpin is (mostly) smart enough to realise global threats are threats to him personally as well.

 

ROBO-COULSON: As with everyone else, I would love to see Clark make yet another comeback. But unless it's something to do with his new LMD format I'm not seeing how it links up.

 

LAURA (MOCKINGBIRD)? The gag about it being a "man's watch" comes into play here, which could be an affectionate tease for his wife needing something more durable, and a big motivator for Clint to retrieve it and find out who's behind the theft - though he doesn't seem to find it that pressing...

 

So my #1 theory...

 

NATASHA: wrapping all of the above together. A big tough chunky man's Rolex would be a joke Christmas present from Tony, or maybe even a big present from Clint (she'd want something a little less delicate, more solid and hardwearing). ISelling one of Natasha's most personal items on the black market is guaranteed to draw the attention of one Clint Barton. Not to mention all the feels.

 

And no, Nat isn't alive, but it's possible she held someone else's information on it (I used to have a USB watch too for work, though not nearly as sparkly). And/or it does something Stark-y. But that's not the core of the story beat.

 

He probably knows it's a trap. Given his PTSD and depression, he also might be looking at it fatalistically as a good way to go out (not to mention hand over the Hawkeye name for himself and Marvel): but his family, Kate and/or Lucky might be enough to stop him doing anything overdramatic.

Response:

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Pym: Agreed, Doug's comment has merit

 

Stark:  I should have listed Stark.  I've seen others mention this, especially with the watch/handgear he used against Winter Soldier in Civil War.  While such gear would be quite valuable, it doesn't seem to fit the tracker and Laura Barton's direct address asking if the watch was secured unaware that it was on the auction block.   Now, a Stark watch would play into something I've not seen anyone mention:  the upcoming Armor Wars.  It would be a lead-in essentially.  If that proves to be the case, then it might be possible that Justin Hammer, who is supposed to be in Armor Wars, hired the services of the Tracksuit Mafia to steal specific tech.

 

Robo-Coulson:  In the unlikely (but desired) return of Coulson to the MCU, I seriously doubt it would be Robo-Coulson.  Feige left Agents of SHIELD out to dry.  As a result, their storyline differed dramatically at the moment of the first snap.  Essentially that makes them an alternate universe.  So, any appearance of Coulson would be from the MCU not the AoS universe.  They still might take pointers from the AoS universe, though.  T.A.H.I.T.I. would be a logical carry-over for bringing MCU Coulson back.

 

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[DougGraves]

One thing the MCU does really, really, really well is planning ahead and putting in connections between planned series.  Really making it a connected universe instead of just characters that sometimes run into one another.  Much  better than the comics did.

 

So it is quite possible that analyzing Hawkeye without factoring in all of the upcoming stuff, possibly a decade of upcoming stuff, won't come to the right conclusions.

[Techwright]

Episode 6 dropped, and did you see those words on Disney +? 

Not "Series Finale".  One can always hope.

 

Well, I'll get in the spoilery chat, but this was one fantastic Christmas...er...wrap! 

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Okay working a bit backwards here.  So the watch was Laura's and it's SHIELD, and it has a 19 on it.  SHIELD agent 19 is code named Mockingbird.  That much is confirmed.  What we're still not certain of is whether MCU Agent 19 is Bobbi Morse, the comic book Mockingbird, with a name change to Laura (which seems reasonable), or if Laura is indeed Laura, but another person assigned the Mockingbird code name.  ALSO...we've never learned why the watch is so important, not entirely anyway.  Clint stated it would blow someone cover (Laura) but exactly what Laura did to have to go into protection has not been discussed.  Here's hoping we see more of her, preferably with the full backstory.

 

Next, they handled Fisk very well, though folks not familiar with the character might be puzzled how he can both survive and dish out so much damage.  Good use of camera angles and spacing to make him seem very imposing.

 

The "fight" sequence between Yelena and Kate was fantastic.  You know these two will be as close as Clint and Natasha.

 

Nice to see Jack stabilize as the anti-hero he's supposed to be in the comics, though showing up to the social wearing a sword was more than a tad weird.

 

Loved the Die Hard feel of this episode.

 

The ice rink fight was beyond fantastic.  Someone really went overboard on trick arrow ideas and I loved it!  My favorite (and possibly the most terrifying) was the fletchette arrow.  I now want this as an arrow power in the COH.

 

The "Ladyhawke" reference was unexpected and perfect.

 

Now a couple of head scratchings:

1.  How on earth did Kazi think he could stand up to Hawkeye or Maya?  They may be both mortal, but he's not in their class of fighter, not by a long shot.

2.  I'm sorry to say this episode did a huge disservice to the NYPD.  Sniping gunfire, people fleeing the building, gun-toting mobsters everywhere, and the NYPD takes half the episode to respond, then the first thing they do is arrest Eleanor?  I'm not buying it.  Sure it makes for an exciting story, a few heroes vs many villains, but come on.  Better to have shown the NYPD pinned down by the Tracksuit Mafia. 

 

 

[WanderingAries]

Interesting Watch theory (from the perspective of a non-comic person), as after watching the last ep, that seems to fit.

 

As for the last villain,

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for some reason I didn't feel that the actor's voice/performance was as deep/brawny as it should have been. Granted, my only reference for That is the Marvel MMO I beta tested.

 

Edited December 23, 2021 by WanderingAries

[Mr. Vee]

I liked how the lighting 

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made Fisk's pants look like the classic purple when he entered. 

 

[Techwright]

  On 12/24/2021 at 1:53 AM, Mr. Vee said:

I liked how the lighting 

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made Fisk's pants look like the classic purple when he entered. 

 

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I'd actually not noticed that.  Went back just now to see for myself.  Very nice. 

 

One other thing I should have commented on before: what was found in the tree...

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The owl Clint finds in the Rockefeller Center Christmas tree is a nod to the real life owl found in the 2020 Rockefeller Christmas tree.  They even used him as the model for the CGI it seems.  The rescued owl was taken to a wildlife center for rehab and release: