Dean McArthur Dialogue

[redxathena]

Hello! 
I would really appreciate it if the interactions with Dean McArthur when you are a woman character had a revisit. They are *really* overt sexual harassment. I was playing with my friend and he said yeah, if you’re a dude, he just compliments you a lot. 

I brought up in Discord that you wouldn’t have over racism in the game so why would this be okay? Someone countered that there’s 5th Column/Council. I would say there’s a difference between saying, “This group is obviously a reference to some fucked up shit, go beat them up” and “We will have you choose your race when you build your character and if you are ethnically Jewish we will have the 5th Column say offensive things to you.”

[GraspingVileTerror]

I appreciate your bringing this up, @redxathena.

Dean's attitude in the narrative is definitely one that would be "problematic" in real life, to put it mildly.  I don't want what I'm going to say here to be considered as being in defense of that kind of behaviour in real life.

Dean's characterization is that of a sleaze.  He's a larger-than-life dirt-bag ex-cop (spoilers, blah blah) who claims that he chose to move to the Rogue Isles to get revenge instead of operating within the confines of law.

His behaviour is that of a reprobate.

 

But you're absolutely right that his dialogue targets women in a more negative way, which can be uncomfortable or even triggering.

 

 

Would either of the two potential following solutions be acceptable to you, and which of them would you prefer?  Do you have any other proposals?

 

1:  A content warning is placed on Dean MacArthur notifying players in advance as to what occurs in his story arc.

-pros:  Allows players to cater their own play experience in advance by avoiding the Contact.  Relatively less impactful to Dev time.

-cons:  It doesn't do a player any good if they are actively seeking the Badges that are uniquely available in the arc, or if they want to enjoy the rest of the arc's content.

 

2:  New dialogue options added at the start of his arc to actively rebuff Dean and have him apologize for his behaviour in the context of the story, which would also change future dialogue to retain his characterization, but within the context of fearing/respecting the player-character for establishing boundaries (after all, he -does- love to compliment the player-character for being a Big Bad Villain).

-pros:  Maintains the narrative and improves the accessibility of Dean as a Contact, adds additional nuance to the character, and gives players meaningful agency to shape their characters' story.

-cons:  More time intensive for the Devs to implement.  Debatable on whether this would mean that characters using the Male/Huge models should also be granted extra dialogue paths, even though the initial problem is due to an inequality to begin with.

 

 

There are, of course, other problems related to gender and representation in this game.  Historically there has been a lot of push-back and denial when they've been brought up.  Here's hoping the Homecoming Team will be willing to re-examine the situation on a broad scale, and start to enact improvements.  The inclusion of more diverse representation within the ranks of Arachnos is a good sign, even if it was not implemented with much thoughtfulness.

 

I'll ping @Cobalt Arachne and @Piecemeal to this, as they're the only Devs I can think of whose roles within the Dev Team might make this discussion applicable to.

[GraspingVileTerror]

Note:  Devs are taking a break right now.  They may not see this thread until January.

 

No idea if GMs are on break, though.  So hopefully we won't need them to step in here . . . 

 

 

Not to derail, and I apologize if this backfires.

I know that I am not an approved moderator, and what I'm about to say isn't a rule or a command.  It's a suggestion in the spirit of maintaining a respectful atmosphere in an effort to try to keep this thread on-topic:

 

If someone is planning to post a reply which amounts to denying redxathena's personal opinion based on the experiences had with this Contact, please reconsider.

It's one thing to say that you "like Dean."  Go ahead and post that, if you feel inclined.
It's an entirely different thing to tell someone that their lived experience is "wrong."

 

Please.  PLEASE think on that before choosing to reply.

[Greycat]

Just so you can compare directly.

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Dean_MacArthur

 

Personally he comes off more like Desperate Guy. And it doesn't show all of *your* dialog options that make it pretty clear *you* are the one in charge and he's doing what he's described as doing - kissing up (poorly and obviously.) He was really one of the first redside contacts that tried to put *you* in charge (as opposed to the rest of Redside where you were a lackey and/or treated like an idiot.)

 

I'm trying to ... not let tone in this start sounding like I'm saying "You're oversensitive" or dismissing how you feel about this contact. I'm not. It obviously bothers you or you wouldn't post this. My main concern is that any attempt at rewriting... risks  "bland-izing" him and turns him into another forgettable contact. So let's knock the ball back in your court here. With the lines he says available to you in that link, what sort of things would *you* suggest as an alternative, without losing the feel of the character (which I tend to characterize as "The 70s called, they'd like their bell bottoms back.")

 

Quote

 

If someone is planning to post a reply which amounts to denying redxathena's personal opinion based on the experiences had with this Contact, please reconsider.

It's one thing to say that you "like Dean."  Go ahead and post that, if you feel inclined.
It's an entirely different thing to tell someone that their lived experience is "wrong."

 

Please.  PLEASE think on that before choosing to reply.

 

 

That's why I've edited this a few times. Trying *not* to do just that.  (Dismiss, that is, not "trying not to think." 🙂  ) It's easy to slip into wording that reads that way, So for the OP, if it *does* sound like that - my apologies, that is not my intent.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Greycat

[TheZag]

The game was rated teen during its retail run.  Taken from the ESRB website the 'Teen' rating "May contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humor, minimal blood, simulated gambling and/or infrequent use of strong language"

 

Im gonna have to be a no on this one.  Even though we are on private servers and the ESRB doesnt have a current rating on the game,  the content and dialogue still falls well within the teen rating in my opinion.  The login screen still has the teen rating with suggestive themes/violence.  We know what we ate getting every time we log in.

 

Edit: i should clarify before this goes sideways since we are on fragile ground.  Im a no on changing the contacts dialogue.  The suggestion of tossing a disclaimer to the start is fine with me.  Let the players know what they are about to get and make their own decision to proceed or avoid.

Edited December 10, 2021 by TheZag

[GraspingVileTerror]

I believe the root of the issue is less with the content existing, but rather its targeted nature, @TheZag.

 

I have an example to give, but with the rules on these forums I'm unsure if it will be deemed acceptable.

So . . . next best thing (maybe), an analogy:  

Imagine if you* select a particular costume piece that you personally like.  It's the sort of costume piece that makes you feel good about yourself.

And while you're playing, you come across a Contact in the game which is flagged to give you different dialogue while your character has that costume piece on.

This dialogue is technically still within the ESRB rating criteria from over ten years ago, but it goes in to detail about how much you suck for being incapable of wanting to wear something else.  --- Specifically using words which real-life people have used to insult you personally in the past. --- (This is the key part.)

Every other player gets a version of dialogue from this Contact which feeds in to a healthy, encouraging power-fantasy for them.

 

How would that make you feel?

Would you consider it fair?

 

(* this is the "Any You," not anyone specifically)

[BrassRobo]

I kind of like the idea of letting the player threaten Dean into being politer, but all it does is switch him to using the male dialog.

 

Something like "Call me babe again and I'll break your arms", and then he refers to you as "bro" from then on. Funny and relatively simple to implement.

[Greycat]

Just now, BrassRobo said:

 relatively simple to implement.

 

Oh lord, now you've done it. Like telling someone you hope their shift will be quiet. Calling down doom, that is...

 

😉

[Coyotedancer]

28 minutes ago, BrassRobo said:

I kind of like the idea of letting the player threaten Dean into being politer, but all it does is switch him to using the male dialog.

 

Something like "Call me babe again and I'll break your arms", and then he refers to you as "bro" from then on. Funny and relatively simple to implement.

 

I like this idea. It's very much what I imagine most of my own female characters' reactions to Dean would be. (I mean, seriously. I just can't see Semnai or Okuri. for instance, *not* threatening to punch him into next week for that kind of crap... 😝)

 

I'll also just toss out there that Dean's smarmy dude-bro dialogue reads as even more creep-tastic if the female character you're running is very young. When I went through it with supposed-to-be-sixteen year-old Kai, it struck me as particularly NOPE.NOPE.DONOTWANT. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Coyotedancer

[Major_Decoy]

1 hour ago, BrassRobo said:

I kind of like the idea of letting the player threaten Dean into being politer, but all it does is switch him to using the male dialog.

 

Something like "Call me babe again and I'll break your arms", and then he refers to you as "bro" from then on. Funny and relatively simple to implement.

Honestly, I think it'd be better as an opt in system. You flirt with him and he starts flirting back.

 

Edit: As long as I'm suggesting an opt-in system, Dean doesn't care if you're a ghost, a robot, a lizard, an elemental incarnation of wind or fire, or a child, he hits on everything with the female body type. I think the "opt-in" system should also allow him to hit on men and huge too.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Major_Decoy
Because I wanted to.

[BrassRobo]

1 hour ago, Greycat said:

Oh lord, now you've done it. Like telling someone you hope their shift will be quiet. Calling down doom, that is...

On the one hand, this should just be switching a single variable. On the other hand, I'm a programmer and I should have learned by now that things that sounds simple rarely are, especially with old code.

[Grouchybeast]

3 hours ago, GraspingVileTerror said:

Imagine if you* select a particular costume piece that you personally like.  It's the sort of costume piece that makes you feel good about yourself.

And while you're playing, you come across a Contact in the game which is flagged to give you different dialogue while your character has that costume piece on.

This dialogue is technically still within the ESRB rating criteria from over ten years ago, but it goes in to detail about how much you suck for being incapable of wanting to wear something else.  --- Specifically using words which real-life people have used to insult you personally in the past. --- (This is the key part.)

Every other player gets a version of dialogue from this Contact which feeds in to a healthy, encouraging power-fantasy for them.

 

How would that make you feel?

Would you consider it fair?

 

That is a really weird analogy.  And in answer to the question, I absolutely wouldn't care because I don't get my sense of self-esteem from the scripted opinions of video-game characters.

 

Anyway, I think it's probably more helpful to stick to the actual question, which is, is it acceptable to have sexist creep dialogue in-game that makes some of the players feel uncomfortable?  I find the dialogue pretty funny, and for me personally it would be a shame to lose it, but I do like the idea of adding an early option to shut him down, so that he directs his ass-kissing smarminess in a different direction.

[Lazarillo]

1 hour ago, Major_Decoy said:

,Dean doesn't care if you're a ghost, a robot, a lizard, an elemental incarnation of wind or fire

[TheZag]

3 hours ago, GraspingVileTerror said:

I believe the root of the issue is less with the content existing, but rather its targeted nature, @TheZag.

 

I have an example to give, but with the rules on these forums I'm unsure if it will be deemed acceptable.

So . . . next best thing (maybe), an analogy:  

Imagine if you* select a particular costume piece that you personally like.  It's the sort of costume piece that makes you feel good about yourself.

And while you're playing, you come across a Contact in the game which is flagged to give you different dialogue while your character has that costume piece on.

This dialogue is technically still within the ESRB rating criteria from over ten years ago, but it goes in to detail about how much you suck for being incapable of wanting to wear something else.  --- Specifically using words which real-life people have used to insult you personally in the past. --- (This is the key part.)

Every other player gets a version of dialogue from this Contact which feeds in to a healthy, encouraging power-fantasy for them.

 

How would that make you feel?

Would you consider it fair?

 

(* this is the "Any You," not anyone specifically)

 

I try to not sound cold and i do get your example and that nothing was aimed at me.

 

But for me when a NPC says something,  its to my character,  not me.  They throw out all the insults and degrading comments (pretty much not this game) and i dont get personally offended because they arent real.  A player behind a keyboard does the same thing and thats totally different.

 

There are others who feel differently or we wouldnt be having this conversation.  And then i try to not sound uncaring when i say we shouldnt make changes because a few were offended over the 15 years of city of villians.  We could probably find someone that is offended by almost anything.  A player may have had a crime against a family member or themself and a mission reminds them of it.  I feel it would be detrimental to the game if a change were made each time an individual were offended.

[Aurora_Girl]

As a straight cis man (yes, I'm a dude) I wholeheartedly support the "threaten the sexually harassing douche and he changes his tune" option. 

[Take One]

I don't know what is possible to do with the dialog trees but if something is to be done at all, I suggest there could be options to tell Dean to

1. cut it out
2. try that again and see what happens, or
3. flirt back.

 

1 and 2 would then proceed but with the male dialogue, while 3 would continue with the female dialogue.

Edited December 11, 2021 by Take One